I ordered Axioms just a few minutes ago.
Since I soon won't be able to enjoy Peter's system on a regular basis, it's time to start my own! I've decided to start out modestly, with a pair of M3's and stands from the factory outlet, which should arrive in about 5 weeks or so. Which gives me
plenty of time to decide on a sub.
I'd like to keep the sub budget around $400, so the two big contenders at the moment are the Hsu STF-2 and the SVS PB10ISD. I'm leaning towards the PB10. Anyone have any other ideas?
Adam, Congrats on your purchase! I've owned the M3's and they're great speakers, you'll love them.
The sub hunt can be a real task let me tell ya. I went through the trouble of going out of my way to hear various HSU and SVS subs, in the end, I chose the HSU VTF-3 MK2. Now I know that sub is a little out of your price range, but none of HSU subs will disappoint. None of SVS's will disappoint either for that matter. Just really boils down to your tastes, preferences, and what you plan to use it the most for.
Good luck, and keep up posted on what you decide.
Sutter
Congratulations, Adam. I've been meaning to get those M3s for quite some time. Axiom muddied up the process by discontinuing the M40s!
As for the sub, I've only heard the Hsu's. Tried the VTF2 and VTF3, and enjoyed both tremendously. Don't think you can go wrong with either Hsu or SVS.
That's one thing I like about choosing between Hsu and SVS, I'm sure I'll be happy with either one. I'm leaning towards the SVS mainly because it goes deeper.
Good show, Adam! Perhaps an unanticipated consequence of Peter's relocation. I'd have suggested M22s plus the PB10, but I'm sure that you'll enjoy the M3s.
Congrats, dude! I've never heard M3s, either...
That was one of the reasons - I already know what the M22s sound like, so I thought I'd try the M3s. I think ultimately I wouldn't mind if the M22s sounded a little warmer, so maybe the M3s will be just right.
Yeah. I've become somewhat dubious about our results from the M50/M22 comparo, but it would be interesting to hear another speaker from that line.
Welcome to the family, Adam.
I know what it's like to have a brother move away. Mine moved to Florida 20 years ago. Though we remain close (we talk by phone almost every week), and though he comes into town on business about 12 times a year, it just ain't quite the same as having him living in the same town.
good choice you will see ,i love my m3ti, i use it just for ht as main, tower speaker is to big for me ,i dont like the look, who said that speakers supposed to be bigger of the movie screen!, the guys from axiom told me that speaker(m3ti) have a warmer sound then m22ti, and im a guys who always listen a 2 ways speaker, so anyway give me your feedback
I'm just bummed they won't be here before I move out.
Ya never know... our VP100 was supposed to take 6 weeks, but we got it in a week. Of course, that was a custom finish, not a B-stock.
Great news Adam, and nice dog
The dog is coming with me.
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The dog is coming with me.
I can understand your frown. I think that's got to be one of the cutest dogs I've seen in ages.
More cuteness:
Sunny is an awesome dog. My future dog is going to have a lot to live up to.
That is a great picture, Adam. I really enjoy and appreciate your photography very much.
Do we credit your brother or genetics for Sunny's allure?
Do my eyes decieve me, or was that an inter-species breeding innuendo?
Adam
Congrats on the impending Axiom acquisition. I had a similar delimma as you about 8 months ago regarding the sub purchase
this thread .
I ended up going with the SVS and have been very happy with my choice. I'm sure the HSU would have been equally pleasing but I just couldn't turn down a sub that on paper (didn't have to opportunity to listen to either of them beforehand) went lower than the others I was considering.
Paul
Hmmm. I've got a new contender. Hsu is having a sale on their piano black VTF series, and I can get a VTF-2 for $470 (only 40 more than a PB10). The PB10 still plays lower, though. And it has one sexy frequency response graph.
Hmmm...
Oh the decisions one has to make.
This is what BrenR had to say about the STF-2 versus VTF-2 in his review of the HSU line up 8 months ago.
"This is probably the only time I can compare an entire product line. I demo'ed the whole STF-1-3 line (and the VTF-2), American Hi-Fi of Canada (yes, AH-F of C, makes me worder if there's a Canadian Imperial Bank of Congress, of America) has them here.................I'm not sure why Hsu quotes the same bass extension for the STF-3 as the 2, while I didn't bring an SPL meter, subjective listening would say that the 3 did dip down lower than the 2. Really nothing came as a surprise. the STF-1 had the least low bass but performed remarkably well to the "punch" torture test (and the sales guy was less than impressed with playing something that sounded like Lars Ulrich playing double kick on a really REALLY big kick drum), the STF-2 was in the middle and the STF-3 went down the furthest but glossed over each individual "hit" a little. The VTF-2 unbunged definately dug deeper than the STFs and yet remained nice and responsive. (as a side note - this test probably would have caused a voice coil to weld itself together in the 80s - a testament to new driver technology!)
Since I went down with my brother (due entirely to the fact he drives something with a cargo area) the bassist in him drooled over the VTF-2, and I picked up the STF-2 (for the cheap bugger in me)."
For $40 I'd be thinking pretty seriously about the VTF.
Having heard neither a VTF-2 nor a PB10, and basing my opinions entirely on mvg-published specs & internet gossip, I would definitely go with the PB10
Adam, I had the VTF2 before I went up to the VTF3, but I really enjoyed it's performance. It was a lot better than an old Klipsch 12" sub. Not only did the VTF2 go deeper, it did so with much more authority while still playing clean. I had it set-up in a small room (10x10) and it really had no problem moving air. "Finding Nemo" and "Saving Private Ryan" were frightening experiences. I think Hsu is releasing a "turbo" attachment which will increase the SPLs of some of their current subs.
I have not heard the SVS, but I thought long and hard about the PB10. I liked the idea that it played lower in the frequency range. In the end, though, I went with the Hsu. Actually drove to Hsu HQ and picked it up. Easy way to save on shipping.
So I forgot to mention in my initial post that I'm also looking for a receiver to power the M3s.
I'm looking at two right now. The Onkyo TX-SR702 and the Marantz SR5500 (both 7.1ch). I can get both on ubid for roughly the same price (~$400 after shipping) - which is roughly half their retail price. The Onkyo has a few more inputs/outputs, more power (100w vs. 90w) and automatic speaker setup (with mic), though I won't need that until I get some surrounds later on down the road, but it'll still be handy. The Marantz has automatic video upconversion to component, Dolby Headphone (I do listen to headphones a lot), plus it looks nicer (cleaner faceplate) and has a better rear layout. Both feature a pretty comprehensive set of surround modes (including Pro Logic IIx, DTS ES, Discrete 6.1, Matrix 6,1, Neo: 6), plenty of power, and multi-room capability.
They seem like a pretty even match on paper. Anyone have experience with either (or both)?
Hi Adam!
Before I bought my M50s(powered by an Onkyo 602)I was extreemly happy with M3s powered by an Onkyo 494.
I bought the Onkyo 602 cause I was happy with the 494, and an earlier stereo-only Onkyo that I'd bought &%@# years before, plus a favorable review in Audioholics of an Onkyo 601 with Axiom M80s.
I'm not "as" happy with the 602/M50 combo as I was with the 494/M3 set-up. Don't know if it's the Onkyo(don't know; earphones sound great, so the line-level stuff is good)or the M50s(could be, even near-field, there's something missing that I can't quite dial-in)or my acoustically challenged room; a certain contributor to sonic disharmony
But "somethin' ain't quite right"
But the "old" M3s sounded great
and I suspect that the "new" M3s will sound just fine also, with a 702!
I've decided to go with the Onkyo. After reading some more, the Marantz only has multi-room capabilities if I have another amp for the other room. Plus reviews of the Marantz are scarce, but I was able to come across quite a few for the Onkyo, all positive.
Now I just need to make up my mind about the sub and I'll have my first nice speaker system all ready to go.
Man, that's a tough call. But the piano black Hsu is real nice looking...
Yeah, I like the look of the Hsu STF and VTF better, but the SVS's performance is hard to ignore. Peter did bring up a good point, though - piano black gloss would be a pain in the ass to keep clean (fingerprints, dust, etc).
A couple PB10 charts to drool over:
That is a point which I am likely to ignore, at least before purchasing....
I got "the email" on Saturday morning. The M3s and stands are on their way!
If you're free Thursday or Friday evening, come on over, Ken. We need to break in the speakers.
Great news!
Now it's "nose on the window glass" time. Can "take forever"!
I just hope that you'll enjoy yours as much as I have mine.
(shhhhh....break-in takes only a few seconds)
They're here!!!
Talk about fast shipping - notification on Saturday and they're on my door Monday afternoon! For some reason I thought the M3s would be on the small but they actually look quite substantial for a 2-driver bookshelf. I had to yank myself off the couch long enough to post this - and in the time it took to write this I've gone back to the couch a couple times to listen more.
Needless to say, I'm very satisfied with my purchase.
Damien Rice is currently singing in my living room and the Cleveland Quartet gave me a private concert of Beethoven's String Quartet Op. 131. I don't think I'm going to miss the M22s that much, Peter.
Pics to come!
Glad you like them, Adam. Enjoy listening to all your music. Again.
Some pics as promised.
The view from the sweet spot.
Wider view
I like wide angles.
See?
Closeup
another
Great shots, Adam. Looks like you have a nice listening area there. Is that a window behind the TV?
Enjoy, Adam, and fire up that Beethoven 7th.
Yup, that is a window there, St_Pat.
Thanks for the listening suggestion, John - I'll definitely have to play that tomorrow when I get home. It's a little late tonight to play it at a decent volume.
Nice room, Adam. Beautiful floor, and I like the blue trim around the windows and doors. Looks like a lovely, older building, with great architecture. I take it you're running the M3s by themselves, at this point.
Do you get a lot of sunlight through that window? Just curious. It seems like it would make watching tv a bit difficult in the daytime.
No, that window's pretty much blocked by the house next door. I had a TV over there way back when when I lived in that house.
Yep, Jack, solo M3s at the moment, but I'm planning on adding an SVS PB10 in the not too distant future.
That's cool, keeping the house in the Axiom family!
Nice setup Adam, I also like the blue trim and the wood floors. May I ask what is that cone shaped object on the floor by the door?
It's a cat scratcher (says the guy who used to live there).
Up until some point in 2000, the living room had dingy brown carpet and the trim was black and gray (!!!). Ken and I decided enough was enough and painted it as you see now with the help of friend. We had recently added a new housemate, as well, and she was really into putting her mark on the house (and taking over, as only a woman can). She discovered that the carpet was hiding a wood floor, so she ripped it out one day. Then she discovered that it needed refinishing. Luckily, her uncle was a handy landlord with a stockpile of tools. He came over with his floor sander and took the layer or grime off the floor for us. Then she and I finished up the corners and edges, cleaned off all the sawdust, and put down three coats stain/poly. It was well worth it.
Ah, the memories. I miss wood floors.
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I miss wood floors.
In the midst of a cold and snowy Virginia winter, I think you'll love having carpeting.
In reply to:
It's a cat scratcher (says the guy who used to live there).
Aww, man, you ruined it! I was gonna say it was a mystic sound enhancer that gives me crystalline highs and depth shattering lows, with a holographic soundstage and you-are-there realism.
>>> Aww, man, you ruined it! I was gonna say it was a mystic sound enhancer that gives me crystalline highs and depth shattering lows, with a holographic soundstage and you-are-there realism. <<<
Actually after seeing some of the home made stuff I've come across on the internet I was thinking maybe it something of the sorts. That's why it caught my eye.
Hehe. I hope to never reach that level of audiophilic craziness.
A few more impressions after some more listening - these speakers do bass amazingly well for their size! They really convey an excellent sense of weight to the lower end without sacrificing any detail. Even in loud orchestral passages the the bass is always articulate and full. I'm impressed!
I'm not saying they wouldn't obviously benefit from a sub, but they definitely work as a standalone system better than M22s.
Now you just need to get a tube amp to let them really shine.
I've been slowly experimenting with speaker placement in the past week. First I started with the speakers about 7 feet apart and 9 feet from the sweet spot. Toed in slightly. Nice imaging, good soundstage width. I've been slowly increasing the distance from speaker to speaker, and I think I've found the magic spot. The equilateral triangle. Speakers 9' from each other and the sweet spot. Toed in not quite to directly face the sweet spot but almost. I think JohnK might just know what he's talking about!
I've tried toeing the speakers in so that their angles would intersect just in front of the listening position, but it seems to reduce the soundstage width considerably, although it does provide more precise imaging. I've found the current toe in to be a nice compromise - the lines would intersect maybe a foot behind my head, but it still provides excellent imaging and a nice wide soundstage.
I had a really cool three-dimensional experience with Radiohead's "Street Spirit" just a few minutes ago. The main guitar that runs through the entire song sounded as if it was playing on a plane even with my seat, the vocals sounded about even with the plane of the speakers, and the soft strings sounded like they were a few feet behind the plane of the speakers. It was actually a little disorienting at first, but it was really cool to be able to kind of "look" at the different layers of sound that way. Playing Telarc's recording of Fauré's Pavane was similarly immersive. Cool stuff!
I should've burned a copy of your Sacred Treasures cd, Peter.
After Christmas. I must hear these things...
I couldn't wait any longer. I pulled the trigger on a PB10-ISD just a few minutes ago.
Now excuse my while I plant myself in front of the door until it arrives.
Sounds like you'll be having a good New Year. Congrats on the sub buy.
I'm sure you'll be VERY satisfied with the PB10. A heck of a bang (literally) for the buck. Enjoy!
Funny, I went with the HSU STF-2. Well, I'm using the sub as a footrest and is going right under my computer desk, so it is a bit important that it is down firing.
My sub should come tomorrow. I know you have to be as anxious as I have been.
For a long time I was debating between the STF-2 and the PB10. I prefer the look of the Hsu, but the specs and well-reviewed performance of the PB10 ultimately won me over, plus it was only $30 more.
If price wasn't an issue I would've gone for the EP500 in a heartbeat.
How much does SVS charge for shipping on the PB 10?
Actually, you can't really hear anything under 25 Hz. I couldn't believe that I couldn't hear the test tone at about 20-25 Hz. The SPL meter was reading stuff, my desk was rattling, but I couldn't hear anything.
And really, I'm not used to all the really low bass in music. Sometimes I like it, some times I don't. When I get to college, that definately isn't going to go over well with music. I'll have to drop it down a little bit on an equalizer. Anyways, during a movie you won't even know the sub is on. When i'm watching a movie without the sub, i'm like, ok, there definately is some missing bass there. Now I'm like, i don't really hear anything missing, but I don't hear the sub. Before with my satalite system I was accustomed to hearing 2 things, the speakers, and the sub. Now, you hear one thing in movies. In music you can hear more of a separation, but it still is one unit. Enjoy your sub!
P.S. I would recommend a 100Mhz crossover setting. That's what I have on my M22's. Really smooth crossover.
Oh, trust me, I know what a good sub can do. I lived with my brother (pmbuko on the boards here) for 4 years and got to enjoy his M22 + SVS PB12-ISD combo on a regular basis. And though you may not be able to
hear below 25hz that well, you can definitely
feel below it.
That seems to be a pretty good price for shipping that beast.
"When I get to college..."
Anybody else get excited by that phrase? Oh, the possibilities.
In reply to:
Anybody else get excited by that phrase?
Not really. Young men never really did it for me.
Well, I'm IN college. When I physically return from my break and "get" to college, everyone will see my new axioms.
It's here.
The PB10 arrived a little after 6pm today. I've got it set up right in between the entertainment center and my left M3ti. After a very quick level check I was somewhat underwhelmed. Spent the last few hours calibrating (the Avia disc helped out a bunch!) and now it's really cooking. In a word: sweeeeeeeeeeet. In more words: "holy [censored] this is an incredible sub!"
Pictures shortly.
In related news - anyone have a link to some downloadable test tones so I can see how deep this thing goes in my room? (it hits 20hz with ease on the Avia sweep)
Pictures as promised:
Truth in Advertising?
It's huuuuge!
Positively gargantuan!
Okay, maybe not
But it sure sounds BIG. This was my vision after a particularly deep impact.
Well, Adam, if a mere 20Hz isn't sufficient to give that monster a workout maybe the simplest thing to try would be the 16Hz warble tone on the
Hsu site . Of course it's been rumored that the Hsu test tones will instantly destroy SVS subs, so you might also look at the
RealTrap test tones. Then obviously you need a good Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor for an organ workout so that you can see if it's "musical".
Thanks for the tone suggestions, John. I actually found a nice little shareware program that creates test tones and sweeps (Audiotest - for Mac). Created a cd of test tones in no time. I also have a Telarc recording of Dupre, Franck and Widor organ works that I'll have to give a spin.
After some brief test tone testing:
14hz - virtually no output
15hz - Some tactile output, not enough to rattle anything unless I venture way above 0dB
16hz - Getting stronger - vibrations throughout the room
17hz - Very solid output - vibrations and rattling like crazy
18hz-20hz - It looks like the PB10 really gets into it's comfort zone in here.
So, solid bass output to 17-18hz, with useable output to 16hz? Not bad, not bad at all.
You're gonna have to watch some movies to experience those frequencies. Music rarely, if ever, has those kind of low frequencies.
I hope you are enjoying your new sub with the same excitment I am mine! I know the feeling where your sound just sounds complete when you get your sub.
In reply to:
Music rarely, if ever, has those kind of low frequencies.
True. My favourite for testing is music with Victor Wooten playing his tenor bass (low A at about 27.5 Hz - Flight of the Cosmic Hippo, for example). I don't listen to much pipe organ, well ok, I don't listen to any pipe organ music so as long as a sub is musical down to 25 Hz, that is good enough for me
musically.
I agree that typically only in movies will you experience anything lower.
Adam:
I'm sorry if I missed it: How big is your room?
Add another foot onto the width and length. Not that it makes much difference.
Flight of the Cosmic Hippo was one of the first things I played once I got it calibrated. It was quite nice.
Ooh, I gotta hear that. I've got the Telarc Digital Tocata and Fugue, if you want to try that one. And an 1812 Overture...
Bring em both, Ken. I don't know if we'll be able to test the subs limits tonight, but we should at least try.
I recently picked up the Telarc recording of the 1812 Overture--those cannons are frightening!
And he went and did a real nice job, too! It's a very nice system. I was surprised at how well the M3s carried themselves in comparison to the 22s, 50s, 60s, and 80s I've heard. Very nice speakers; they don't give up anything to the 22s. Also, the PB10 is downright amazing--all those cliches they use for subs apply. It was a bit bigger than I expected, though...
Adam was very nice in putting up with a couple tracks from my Rush disk, which sounded quite good once we got it switched to 4.1. And the beer was excellent!