Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater New Setup

I'm new to this forum and Axiom as well, so I'll try and keep it brief. But I tend to ramble at times. I'm looking to make the jump to a well sounding, budget minded 5.1 setup. Initially I was going to go with a Paradigm Cinema 110CT. $800 HT in a box. Very good WAF(wife approval factor, took me a sec to figure that acronym, it's great!) I had liked the reviews that Paradigms got, but that was before I happened upon Axioms last week. Mentally, I think I'm sold. The plan is M22's, VP100, QS4's, and an EP175. Through the outlet I'm looking at ~1350. Some how I need to convince my spouse to up the budget. Along the budget line, one way of cutting costs would be to use Paradigms for the surrounds. I would use the Cinema ADP surrounds which are 4-driver 1", 3.5" dipolars. What opinions are out there on this option? How much performance would I be sacrificing by going outside the Axiom family for surrounds? They would be used primarily for movie apps, as I'm not that in to multichannel music, YET...
Anyway, look forward to some advice and enjoy the humor in these threads.
Sips

Welcome Sips,

For me, I can't imagine parting with my Qs8's, for another brands di-pole or bi-pole speaker. Axiom's quadpolar design is very unique, and I am not aware of any other manufacturer with such a design. You get the top/bottom woofers, and the left/right tweeters firing all in phase. The result is, for me, the best surround experience I've ever heard. Actually, they are probably my favorite speaker of my setup. If there is anyway you can swing it, that would be trick

By the way, welcome! Hope to see you around a lot.

What receiver are you planning on using, and what is your room size?

Randy

Welcome!
Tell your wife that if you get the Axioms now the upgradeitis bug will not bite as bad (for a while)!
Plus it will be more difficult to get your money out of a HTIAB.
Good luck!

Randy,
room's 13w x 15l x 8.5h; however, there is no wall at the back of the listening/viewing position as it opens into our kitchen area. Right now for a receiver all I'm running is a Sony AVD-S50ES, which is a progressive DVD player receiver with 100W x5. The one thing some people have said is that with the room opening to the back I may want to go with a bigger sub to fill that air space, but I'm already jeopardizing the WAF as it is.
Sips

oh yeah,
thanks rockhead and sirquack for finally saying SOMETHING about my post. I was begining to wonder if something smelled funny. JK, thanks,
Sips

Biggest problem I see is that the CT surrounds have a small woofer (3-1/2") and are designed to be used with a fairly high crossover frequency, ideally something around 150 Hz. If you have a receiver that lets you run different crossover frequencies for each speaker set (in other words a Harmon Kardon) that wouldn't be too bad but otherwise you're going to have to choose between cutting the Axioms off higher than necessary (M22 and VP100 run with 80-100 Hz crossover) or cutting the ADPs off lower than ideal and living with a bit of a frequency response hole between (say) 100 and 150 Hz. Shouldn't be a big deal though...

The ADPs would have to be quite a bit cheaper for this to be a good idea... but it is one of the four time-honoured ways of bringing an HT system into budget :

1. Cheaper surrounds (usually OK if response is fairly close but not so good for music)

2. Non-Axiom sub, usually from a mfg closer to where you live (shipping a sub is expensive), maybe a HSU STF-1

3. Use an M2 for a center rather than VP100

4. Use REALLY cheap surrounds for now ($10) and replace with the surrounds you want when budget permits.

What do you have today in the way of a receiver ? EDIT - you answered this while I was typing...

Other interesting systems to consider :

3 M3s across the front, QS4 surrounds, EP175 - 1173 from FO

2 M3s, VP100, QS4 surrounds, EP175 - ~1250

2 M22s, VP100, QS4 surrounds, STF-1 - 1200 from FO/HSU

upgrade to QS8 surrounds - 1300 from FO

3 M2s, QS4 surrounds, STF1 - 1000 from FO

bridgman,
okay, I'm getting hooked and I havn't even pulled out the debit card. I think for the best bang for the buck I should just go ahead and go with the QS4's. Sounds like they provide a great sound field and they will definitely perform better than the ADP's if I get into SACD, since my receiver will play them. Now for one of your suggestions: The stf-1 sub. I went to their site and saw some snippets of reviews (one said it was ...superior to Axiom's EP 175) Am I relying too much on these reviewer's comments, or is it that good of a sub? I noticed it only had an 8" woof, compared to the 175's 10". My friend says size doesn't matter, but is this true when comparing subs ...the stf1 and ep175? Thanks so much for the alternative options.
Sips

Bridgman,
Help me understand something here. You were talking about frequency responses of the surrounds and having a hole if I crossed them lower and used the ADP's in the rear. If the only option I have with my receiver is speaker size in speaker setup, doesn't that mean the receiver internally crosses at whatever frequency it is programmed for say, small surrounds? If that is the case do I understand that I don't really have a way of really controlling the x-over freqs to the surrounds per se?

re: STF-1 vs. EP175 -- it's tough to say. Bigger is better when it comes to filling a large room with bass, particularly if you are into shaking walls and furniture. On the other hand, a smaller woofer in the same size box can often do a better job of going down into the lower frequencies. The STF-1 is a surprisingly good but smaller subwoofer; it may be "better for the size" than the EP175 (in fact it probably is) but I don't think it would be better overall. Having said that, unless you have to shake the house I think you would be real happy with a matched Axiom system and an STF-1.

But what do I know ? Until recently I was running M2 mains, VP100, QS8s and a big honkin' SVS 20-39PC-plus. In all seriousness, if you expect to become a bass addict one option would be to go for smaller mains (M2 or M3) and spend the extra on a bigger sub.

The more likely scenario, however, is that you will play some music on the system, be blown away by how good it sounds, start digging out all of the CDs you haven't listened to for a while, and be real glad you got M22s and the matching surrounds (in which case the STF-1 is probably the perfect purchase).

It's hard to say, every addiction plays out a bit differently

I'd go with the STF-1. They're both renowned for how good they are with music. However, any sub with a -3 dB point above 30 hz, isn't worth much more than $500. Since they're both good with music, go for the STF-1.

You could get a B-stock HSU STF-3(read: huge ) for $480 - $505, shipped. This would be an awesome deal, I think.

>>If the only option I have with my receiver is speaker size in speaker setup, doesn't that mean the receiver internally crosses at whatever frequency it is programmed for say, small surrounds? If that is the case do I understand that I don't really have a way of really controlling the x-over freqs to the surrounds per se?

Many (but not all) receivers have the ability to adjust the crossover frequency in addition to choosing "small or large". The small/large decision essentially determines whether the crossover will be engaged for that speaker -- the frequency can be either fixed (usually somewhere between 100 and 200 Hz) or adjustable.

A few receivers (HKs for sure) let you set different crossover frequencies for mains, center, surrounds and (if 7.1) rears. HK owners take great pleasure in reminding owners of other receivers about this at every possible opportunity

EDIT -- I have been trying to download the manual for your receiver to see if it has adjustable crossover frequency but with no success. You are going to have to dig out your own copy of the manual, sorry...

Thanks Bridgman and Thasp. I think I'm liking the Axioms around an STF-1 idea. I'm the type that tries and get the most out of my dollar and this case it means a setup that can handle both music and movie situations and it sounds like this is a good compromise. As long as the STF-1 can go down and make me feel most of the LFE's in movies I'm sure I won't be disappointed. I'm not really a bass fiend when it comes to music as long as it accurately represents the recording. That said: Bridgman I'm going to check out the manual on my receiver to see about x-over freqs. And Thasp you said something about 'B' stock HSU's. Is that something like Axiom's Factory Outlet. Again, thank you for the info. I feel like I need to get Axioms just to become apart of the family.
Chowder, Sips

Tom, I took a look at the manual and see that it gives no clue as to their definition of a "small" speaker setting crossover. I'd suspect that it would have a fixed setting of well over 100Hz, possibly 120 or 150Hz. This would be too high to be ideal for the crossover to the Axioms and might lead to localization of the sub, but isn't unusable. The unit is apparently aimed at simple operation, but I was disappointed to notice that the DPLII width and depth adjustments when playing 2-channel material in surround mode(which most DPLII units have)weren't available. Making these adjustments can significantly improve the result in directing ambience from the front speakers to the surrounds where it belongs.

John,
Thanks, I dug out my manual and you're right. All I have the option to do is select speaker size, level, distance, and height. Nowhere does it mention what the crossover frequencies are. Do I understand it correctly that if it crosses at say, 150Hz, and the Axiom QS4's response goes down to 100Hz, that there would be a hole between those frequencies? If so, how big a deal is that? I realize my receiver is very limited, but it was the only way I could convince my wife to get a DVD player and have something to drive 5.1. I only paid $150 and it's a Sony ES with digital amplification, which I thought was a really good deal. But as in most cases you do get what you pay for.
Thanks,
Tom

>>Do I understand it correctly that if it crosses at say, 150Hz, and the Axiom QS4's response goes down to 100Hz, that there would be a hole between those frequencies?

It's actually not that bad. If the QS4 goes down to 100 and your receiver crosses over at 150 there would be no problem since the QS4 would be able to handle anything the receiver sent to it. Higher crossover frequencies work with any speakers (even tiny HTIB systems) while lower crossover frequencies require larger and more expensive speakers (like the Axioms).

The only problems related to a too-high crossover frequency are (a) many people can "localize" the subwoofer with a crossover frequency >80 Hz (ie can distinguish that there is a separate subwoofer rather than having all the sound seem to come from the main/center/surround speakers) and (b) the sub won't do quite as good a job with the 100-150 hz range as the Axioms would.

Localizing the sub is not a big deal if you put the sub in the center near or behind the TV. Having the sub cover the 100-150 Hz range is a tiny argument in favor of getting a sub with a smaller driver although most subs seem to do an OK job up to 150 Hz anyways.

The fixed crossover frequency should not be a problem.

I'm still trying to learn this stuff. So does this mean that if the 22's response goes down to 60Hz would you ideally want to crossover to the sub at this point to take over the rest of the lows? Or is there more to it than that.
Thanks for all the info,
Sips

With 22s, you'll probably want to cross at 80--the 60 Hz is a nice number to quote, but they probably won't satisfy you down to 60 Hz.

I e-mailed sony's support to see if they could give me the respective crossover's associated with the speaker size chosen in the Speaker Setup. I see what you mean, it's my understanding that crossovers still allow some frequencies through below their listed frequency so some lower freq would still get to the fronts. Is that right?

The cutoff isn't a solid break; it's more of a curve. So yes, some lower frequencies will go to the mains, but it tapers off. Same deal with the high pass on the subwoofer.

Exactly. If the speaker's -3dB point is 60 hz, for example, you probably wouldn't want to set your receiver crossover to 60 if you wanted the best response from the speakers because the receiver is expecting the speakers to stay "flat" for at least 1/2 octave or so below the crossover point..

On the other hand, a lot of people on the board do set their crossover frequencies at or even a bit lower than the speaker's -3dB point to avoid localizing the sub. This is an issue because for many people the best sounding spot for the subwoofer is NOT right by the TV, so they either have to choose between having the sub in a bad spot (weak / crappy / boomy bass) or setting the receiver crossover lower than would be ideal for the speakers.

A good example of this would be the VP100 -- its -3db point is 95 Hz, but a lot of people run it with an 80 Hz crossover because that gives them the best overall sound. They are generally getting better bass effects (ability to place the sub where they want for better sound) at the cost of a (largely inaudible) dip between 80 and 100 Hz.

Again, I wouldn't sweat the higher crossover frequency on your receiver unless you determine that the only place in the room where the sub sounds good is way off to one side or behind you. The Axioms will be putting out sound down to 100 Hz and below, just relatively less below the crossover point (and the sub will be picking up the slack).

Speaking of subs, does your receiver have a "subwoofer out" RCA jack ?

Wow, people run their VP100s at 80 Hz? I crossed mine at 100 Hz, and I'm pretty happy with it.

I also run mine at 100 hz crossover. Nobody has actually said they cross their VP100 over at 80 Hz, but they have said they cross their QS8s at 80 Hz, and that they have VP100 as well, and that their receiver does not allow separate crossovers for each speaker set, and they don't seem to have an ICBM, so a reasonable assumption would be that their VP100 is also being crossed over at 100 Hz.

Speaking of assumptions -- name that movie -- "remember, when you make an assumption you make an ass out of you and umption"

the long kiss goodnight. oh oh what do i win?

Yep, the receiver has an RCA sub out.

Samuel L. Jackson's best role ever.

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Samuel L. Jackson's best role ever.

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really? i have never seen it i just cheated and googled the qoute. lol

The Long Kiss Goodnight is a fantastic movie. Jackson was, as Peter says, fantastic.

And Geena Davis was also magnificient. She was sexy, cute, terrifying, devoid of morals, and a paradigm of morals at different times.

Highly recommended !

Still waiting to hear from Sony to see if they tell me what the internal crossover freqs for my receiver running in Small Speaker mode. A knowledgeable friend of mine who got the same receiver used didn't know what the crossover was, but said that if he had to guess it would be 80Hz. "Industry Standard?" Let's say for giggles that it turns out to be 150Hz, whould I want to consider running M22's and QS4's as 'Large' speakers and get the full range of freqs? The receiver does have a sub out, so I assume that even if you choose 'Large' speakers the sub still has to get low frequency info while playing in multichannel. However, would that be putting too much of a strain on the M22's. I don't see how it would be any different than running the M22's in 2-channel stereo. Help me out here.

Okay, I've made up my mind, on paper, what my system will be. M22's L/R, VP 100 Center, QS4's Surround, and an HSU STF-1 Sub. Now about speaker placement. I've had a couple back and forths with Alan Lofft on speaker placement and now I'm just wondering if there are any 'real' world situations out there. I was planning on putting the 22's on top of custom made equipment cabinets. The top of these cabinets would be ~28" tall. Based on the dimensions I got off the M22's, this puts the tweeters at around 44" or so. What do y'all have to say about having the 22's up this high? It seems that the stand they recommend is the FMS 16 for the M22's and my scenario has them up another 8". Anyway, thanks for the input.

Speaking of movie quotes and assumptions. Classic movie with "Don't assume. When you assume you make an ASS out of you U and Me."

>>However, would that be putting too much of a strain on the M22's. I don't see how it would be any different than running the M22's in 2-channel stereo. Help me out here.

Nothing wrong with your understanding. The big benefit of running the speakers in "small" is the ability to sound clean at higher volumes because the lowest notes are stripped off so your poor woofers aren't flapping around trying to repro them. It is exactly like stereo, just that DVDs tend to have a lot more bass on the soundtracks than anything you would normally play on a stereo.

The other issue is that when you set to "small" all the speakers roll off at the same frequency and coincidentally the sub picks up at that frequency -- when you set to "large" then each speaker does its own thing in terms of rolling off the low notes, but you can only set one crossover frequency on the sub so (for example) you will probably miss some content off the surrounds (they roll off at the highest fequencies) and center but have good response on the mains (assuming you set the sub crossover in the 60 hz range. If you set the sub crossover higher then both sub and mains will be running from 60-100 hz and you will get a bit of a bump in the response as a result.

All of the above is grossly simplified and you may find that "large" sounds as good or better, but definitely start with "small" first because it is so much easier to get everything working right...

re: tweeter height, it depends on how tall you are and how high your chair/sofa is. I always mount my speakers higher than recommended, then again my ears are mounted higher than normal as well (I'm ~6'5) so it all works out.

If by "real" world you mean situations where the speakers can be mounted in exactly the way the manufacturers recommend, yes they exist but they are normally purpose-built while finishing the basement. If you think home theaters are exotic you should see the lengths people go to in order to make the perfect stereo listening room :

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vstrt&1098913241

I'm here rolling on the floor after reading part of your post about your "ears are mounted higher than normal."

I just had all sorts of weird visions. Are we talking about Dr. Spock, a "wookie," or something else??? That 6'5" didn't help after I had tears streaming out of my eyes.

ROTFLOL!!!

Sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess that its late and I've had a tough day.

Actually, by real world I meant other than ideal. In that I'm assuming most of us masses don't have a dedicated Home Theater room, but rather, are trying to make the most of an imperfect situation. As always, thanks for the input,
Sips

Tom, that receiver manual provides essentially no information about bass management, and it shouldn't be assumed that if the speakers are set large and the sub on that the sub would be doing anything most of the time. Typically it would get nothing with those settings except at the times when there are low frequency effects(LFE)present during movies. So, that might not be a good idea, but if Sony won't reveal this secret information, experiment to see when the sub actually operates.

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(I'm ~6'5)

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And now, Ladies and Gentlemen, we know why John's new house has 22' ceilings and an HT in a loft.

Color my 5' 7" frame "envious".

Shrimp!

We should start an Axiom giant posse. There are at least 3 members I know of (myself included) who are above 6'3".

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Shrimp!

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I make up for it with long lenses!

The funny thing is (Crap! I'm hijacking!) I had thought since high school that I was 5'9". I knew I was correct about that measurement, and I never had any reason to think differently. I quoted that height for any document that required it.

Then, just last year, the nurse doing the preliminary stuff before a Dr.'s appointment decided to get my height in addition to weight and BP and when she said 5'7", I had her check two more times!

I honestly have no idea if I shrunk 2" or that height from my HS days with with my sneakers on. Either way, it was kinda depressing news to get the year you turn 40!

Yup, 5'8.5" while in my 20s; to 5'5" inches today.

Gravity has truly gotten me down.









(Of course, proportionally, other parts have grown)

I'm down an inch from 5' 10" to 5' 9".

Oh Great!

I must be living over a gravitational "hot spot"

Jack meant just in the last 6 months....

Ooooooops!

What say ye to that; Jack?

(This thread is truly being hijacked by the "Little People")

"I'm ~6'5"

ditto.


"house has 22' ceilings"


ditto.


"and an HT in a loft."


and ditto.

Twins separated at birth? Are you adopted?

(Thread re-hijacked by those of us who ate our vegetables as children and reached our full height potential)

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Jack meant just in the last 6 months....

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What say ye to that; Jack?

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HE'S RIGHT!

Whoooops!!

I gotta get me some calcium pills or sumptin' afore I start to really shrink too!

Don't want to look like those old folks seen from behind while driving down the road when all you can see of them is the top of their little heads above the seats(the old style seats, without headrests!)

Major Bummer!

Q-Tips!

Yeah!!!

You've seen them too!

Them's the ones, alright!!

Talk about thread hi-jack

I read somewhere you are actually taller in the mornings than you are at night. Its due to the fact your spine can get compressed during the day (mostly upright) and will uncompress at night during sleep.

Of course as you get older, the spine will eventually compress over time and stay that way. So Mark, measure yourself after a long night's sleep and you could possibly hit 5'9

Anyone remember the Seinfeld episode when George didnt want to take off his elevator shoes since they made him 2 inches taller...hilarious!

I'm glad my thread has managed to morph and keep everyone so entertained. I'm only pushing the 5'10 mark and my hope is that my son will eclipse the 6'.
Back to my original thread: I have found out through exhaustive research that my receiver's crossover for speakers set at 'small' is fixed at 120Hz. When 'large' is chosen only LFE info is sent to the sub. Has anyone had a problem with crossing 22's, 100, and qs4's at 120Hz? I know it's not great, but all I have to work with for the time being. Like I said I got a really inexpensive deal on a digital drive receiver and it was my only WA (wife approved) jump to full on hometheater.
Thanks for the info and hijack away.
Sips

My QS4s and VP100 are crossed at 100 Hz. I don't think 120 will be a major problem; you may know exactly where your sub is, though!

Although 120hz seems a bit to high give it a try and see how it sounds.You can always upgrade your receiver at a later date.

thanks, now if i'm only 5'10". I wonder if that means my closer proximity to the floor means that I will be able to localize it much easier than say the Seqoia sized Bridgman.
Sips

Two comments :

1. I haven't measured my height for a while but I was roughly 6-5 last time I measured, which was years ago. I may actually be 5-9 just like everyone else...

2. A 120 Hz crossover should be no problem other than a bit of sub localization as others have already told you. As long as you can put the sub somewhere near or (ideally) behind the TV that shouldn't be much of a problem...

As usual, John beat me to the punch with the recomendation I was going to make: Although the 120Hz crossover isn't likely ideal, if you keep your sub centered as much as possible it will be harder to localize than if you put it off to one side or a corner.

Now can we get back to the height issues? Window, we're notorious around here for going OT into friendly banter! Welcome!

>>As usual, John beat me to the punch with the recomendation I was going to make:

By almost an hour this time. Admit it, you stopped for dinner, right ?

I was without power all afternoon!

But Someday.... I don't know when..... but Someday.... I'm gonna post before you and you'll have to agree with me!

Oh Wow!

This IS getting exciting! Just another good reason to keep watching!!!

Alright, some new thoughts. If my receiver's x-over is at 120Hz would I still run the sub's at it's max? I assume if run this sub's x-over less than 120Hz I would have a hole between the two like Bridgman was talking about earlier in the thread. What about the option of running the sub from it's speaker level input and having the 22's run at full range? The 22's will naturally roll off at their inherent response and I could then set the x-over on the sub at say 100Hz. The only thing I'm not sure of is the effect on LFE signals. If I don't hook the sub up through the RCA sub out of the receiver does that mean I will lose the LFE info encoded in DD/DTS?

Another consideration. I hope I'm not bogging this reply down, but I have a ? about surround placement. My home theater placement is such that behind the listening area it is open to the kitchen on the other side of the house. The QS4's would be mounted to the side of the listening position at the recommended height. My concern is that there will be no rear wall to speak of. Is anyone out there in this same situation and if so should I start thinking of alternatives? I've heard the QS's are forgiving in placement, but what should I expect with the back tweeter firing into basically an entirely new room? Just looking for some thoughts.
Sips

Any escape might help to smoothe the unattractive truth..

OK, now you understand how it all works. Good show !

1. Yes, if the sub's crossover is lower than the receiver crossover and you are letting the receiver crossover control what goes to the mains (and other speakers) then you will get a hole.

2. If you use the speaker-level connections for the sub then the sub would only get LF signals originally intended for mains -- LFE, plus low notes from center and surround channels would be lost.

However, there is a trick -- some receivers will automatically send LFE plus the stripped off low notes from center and surround to the mains if you tell the receiver you don't have a sub AND that your mains are "Large". In that case the mains (and hence the sub) would get LF signals below 120 Hz from all of the channels. The M22s would handle down to their rolloff, and the sub would start to pick up as the M22s roll off.

The quality of the resulting system would depend on how the rolloff of the sub and the M22s matched up... AFAIK M22s are fairly easy to match with a sub.

Personally, if your receiver had a 120 Hz crossover I would stay with the simple approach -- just run the M22s in Small, hook the sub up via Subwoofer Out, put the sub "not too far from the TV" to avoid blatant localization problems, and be happy. You are asking all the right questions and could spend an enjoyable day playing with the different combinations but probably not worth it. Either way, find out if the receiver will send LF (LFE + stripped from center, surrounds) to the mains when you have no sub -- without that, don't even try.

If the crossover were higher than 120 Hz the approach you suggested would be more attractive.

EDIT - re: the QS4s, I wouldn't worry too much -- it's the tweeters on top and bottom that IMO have the most effect, and those will work fine even without a back wall. You could try hanging the QS4s from the ceiling behind you with FMBs or angling them a bit forward but personally I think the side wall position will still be best. Slightly above and behind you, right ?

re: any escape might... I was wondering if "powerwindow" was a Rush reference... but then again I live in Toronto so...

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it's the tweeters on top and bottom that IMO have the most effect, and those will work fine even without a back wall.

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Ummm, John?
The tweeters are on the beveled fronts/sides. It's the woofers that are top and bottom. Lift one off your soup can and check!
I think John is right though in terms of it sounding OK. The QS series are really flexible in terms of mounting location!

My tweeters aren't immediately near a wall, front or back. They work pretty well.

Bridgman, as always cool info. Just had a lengthy phone conversation with a friend that is way beyond my level of knowledge with this stuff. He suggested something similar to what you were talking about, although adding a bit of a twist. Run speaker level inputs to the sub, tell the receiver 'no' sub, and set bass management for the fronts to 'large.' He seemed to think that the LFE info would be redirected to the mains. Then I could use the sub's crossover to match the 22's. The twist comes in the form of soldering up a hobby box with some caps that would limit freqs to the mains and have something like a 6dB rolloff. I see that there could be many different options and hours of listening. It is fun though to tweak with things just to have something to do.

And ahh yes, powerwindow is my tribute to the greatest rock trio around and I'm from Los Angeles.

All that we can do is just survive
All that we can do to help ourselves
Is stay alive...

Thanks all for the QS placement info. I don't think I'll worry about where they'll go. I just need to win the lotto or something to get all this off the ground.

Tom, as John B.commented, my view is also to just keep things simple. Although the 120Hz cross is higher than ideal, use it with all speakers small, sub on and the line-level connection from the receiver. Use the bypass on the sub's internal crossover so that there's no problem with it.

>>Ummm, John?
The tweeters are on the beveled fronts/sides. It's the woofers that are top and bottom. Lift one off your soup can and check!

Um... yeah... I meant the big tweeters... with the cones... yeah...

Good catch. I don't have to check -- I trust you

>>Run speaker level inputs to the sub, tell the receiver 'no' sub, and set bass management for the fronts to 'large.' He seemed to think that the LFE info would be redirected to the mains.

Yep, that's the idea. Just be aware that most receivers do *not* seem to redirect LFE to the mains. I know my receiver (HK) does not, for example. I believe Yamaha receivers will redirect LFE to the mains, not sure about Sonys.

I definitely am all about keeping things simple and that would be my first choice of connections. Chances are I will not be able to localize the sub anyway. I'm assuming that the reason I would want to keep the sub as close to the TV as possible is so that explosions or whatever, don't seem to be coming from off screen. Similar to why you don't want to be able to locate your surrounds.

What about music listening. I do know that if I have my receiver set to "auto decode" in the sound field/surround setup that it will direct low frequencies to the sub if sub is chosen in speaker setup. In that case sub placement is not critical, but the soundstage up front may appear funky because again you don't want to know where these lows are coming from.

Hope you Canucks had a good Canada Day.

A raven strains along the line of the road,
carrying a muddy, old skull.