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#101139 - 07/03/05 10:06 AM Re: M60ti's audition finally. Impressions Very lo
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
In reply to:

When I go to hear a speaker I leave the credit cards and check book at home.


OOOOOOOOOOOO! Good Thinking! Wish I'd thought of that. Of course if you're looking at Axioms or other internet brands on your home computer, what are ya gonna do?

_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#101140 - 07/03/05 10:28 AM Re: M60ti's audition finally. Impressions Very lo
oz350z Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 562
Loc: Atlanta
Jack
I thought you liked me. You had to point that out. Damn puters make shopping to easy. Now if they could just make decisions for me.
oz
_________________________
"Life is what happens while your busy making other plans" John Lennon

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#101141 - 07/03/05 11:02 AM Re: M60ti's audition finally. Impressions Very lo
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
That's a good review Oz, very thorough.
The post on sibilance was a subject still under discussion, but the long and short is that the speakers don't make the sibilance. That comes from the recording.
A speaker could make a bright sound, if it had peaks in the upper frequency ranges. The recording could also be bright, if it were mixed with a bumped treble.
I do find the Axioms to be forward in their presentation. I have never found them to be sibilant.
I recently tested, in A/B blind format, the M40, M60 and some Tannoy Definitions D700s to review these ideas, and will post the last results later in the thread.
The M60s are an excellent speaker for their price, but they are certainly not the only speaker of quality out there. The rest of your expected auditions should prove to be interesting. The A/B switcher i recently borrowed has been extremely helpful in elucidating the difference in sound character b/w speakers without having to rely on audio memory (notablly unreliable method).
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#101142 - 07/03/05 11:39 AM Re: M60ti's audition finally. Impressions Very lo
oz350z Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 562
Loc: Atlanta
Hey Chess!
Yes... I have been following that thread closely. I will keep checking. That has been the problem, all of my testing is not A/B switching. So I am left to memory, which by the way is not so good anymore. Too many senior moments these days. Anyway it gives a good overall impression hearing these different speakers. At least I'll feel like I did my homework.
oz
_________________________
"Life is what happens while your busy making other plans" John Lennon

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#101143 - 07/03/05 10:37 PM Re: M60ti's audition finally. Impressions Very lo
thyname Offline
aficionado

Registered: 04/05/05
Posts: 552
Loc: Oakton, VA
Yes Oz, I actually liked the Paradigm 100s, they were good. Comparing them to Axioms they had a "bigger" bass, not necessary better. I like the "refrained' and tigh bass of Axioms. Also, I had the impression they had a better soundstage, but again, this was at dealers' room, and I know they have all the acoustics treatment and so on. I almost bought them (able to get them down to $2100) but I decided to wait. I promised myself that I'd buy something close to their sound (Axioms ARE close in sound with them) and cheaper, and here I found: AXIOMS!!

As for sibilance, I don't think it is only on the recordings. As I said, and after talking to people who know much more on audio than me, my room has bad acoustics. A simple test somebody tought me: clap your hands, does the sound hurt your ear? here you go... (I know sounds dummy but a simple test it is). Besides, before I got my Axioms I had a pair of JBL Northridge E60s floorstanders with my Rotel Stereo receiver that I don't have any more, and never had a problem with sibilance. I am not saying the JBL are great, and of course there is a reason I sold them, but... Anybody can explain this?!
_________________________
Axiom M60s, QS4s, VP100 Onkyo TX-SR804 Oppo 970HD Rotel RB-1080/RCD-1072 REL Q150E sub, PS 3

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#101144 - 07/03/05 10:58 PM Re: M60ti's audition finally. Impressions Very lo
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
It is my opinion that the higher a speaker's quality, the more revealing it is, and the more important becomes the quality of what's on that little disc that goes into your DVD/CD player. As long as there is no mixing and mastering standard to which each disc must be held, some discs are going to sound better than others.

Axioms are very accurate, revealing speakers and some discs will NOT sound good on them. But, the majority will sound exceptional. Lesser speakers, like your JBLs will tend to level things out, rendering the "UGH" factor of a poorly mixed or mastered disc acceptable. But, likewise, they will diminish the "WOW" factor of a fabulously wonderful disc, reducing it to..........well..........only acceptable.

So, with quality speakers, even though some discs will sound "teeth gnashing, fingernail on chalk board, irritating," once you've experienced "goosepimpling, hair raising, breath taking incredible," it's mighty damned difficult to settle for every disc sounding merely "acceptable."

Just my theory.

_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#101145 - 07/04/05 12:29 AM Re: M60ti's audition finally. Impressions Very lo
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
thyname,
The definition of sibilance is (from www.thefreedictionary.com):
sib·i·lant Pronunciation (sb-lnt)
adj.
Of, characterized by, or producing a hissing sound like that of (s) or (sh)

Sibilance is not found in the sound of a clapping hand. Sibilance is only in voices in a recording. It is part of speech, not part of an exact sound frequency but instead varies by individual voice. Sound frequencies in general can be affected by their environment but the S will always be in the English language no matter how high or low it is pronounced by the human voice.
Often cymbols are deemed 'sibilant' because the sound they make is similar to a sss type sound one could pronounce, although it is not the same. The cymbol sound may however cross into a frequency range similar to that of most human voices on average.
I knew a guy once who could make trumpet sounds pretty effectively, but it was still no where near a real trumpet.

I have to agree with Jack. It is likely the JBL speakers have a wicked dip or huge hump which is masking a common range of vocal sounds or instrument sounds making the harsh notes seem less harsh. Turning down the treble knob does the same thing, but you lose alot of detail with such methods.
An A/B test with both speakers would be more useful in determining if this is such a huge difference b/w these models. Going by audio memory is notably unreliable and therefore near impossible to answer questions like "why when i added this component did such a sonic character disappear/appear...etc.".
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#101146 - 07/04/05 07:59 AM Re: M60ti's audition finally. Impressions Very lo
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10911
Loc: Central NH
Ba-ba-ba Benny and the Jetsssssssss....
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#101147 - 07/04/05 11:49 AM Re: M60ti's audition finally. Impressions Very lo
oz350z Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 562
Loc: Atlanta
chess
I don't think that thyname was implying that hand claps are sibilant by nature. I think he was implying that the brightness of his room might be contributing to his sss problems. On every speaker demo I have conducred the first thing I do when I get in the room in clad my hands together once. The echo factor tells me much about the liveleness of the room. In the original post of the review I mentioned the Sonus Faber and the Martin Logan demo rooms had so much echo I asked the sales person how he expected to sell speakers costing this much money demoing them is such an acoustic cave. They might as well set them up in the tile bathroom. Excuse if I misunderstood your comment but I think the hand clap is a good start to any audition.
oz
_________________________
"Life is what happens while your busy making other plans" John Lennon

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#101148 - 07/04/05 11:53 AM Re: M60ti's audition finally. Impressions Very lo
oz350z Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 562
Loc: Atlanta
Jack
Well said! These are trade offs. I guess we have to decide what we're looking for in the audio experience. I want all the details of the recording. If the recording sounds like crap I will then try to adjust as best I can or I just won't play that disc as often as I might if it were mastered better.
oz
_________________________
"Life is what happens while your busy making other plans" John Lennon

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