Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater More distortion with 4ohm?

Ian, you previously gave me excellent advice regarding my planned speaker purchase. I have been looking at a JVC receiver, the RX-DP10VBK, rated 120W x 7, THX ultra. I noticed that it quotes less than 0.02% THD at 8ohm, but 0.07% THD for 4 ohm speakers. Realistically, will this make a difference, and would it sway you to the M60 vs. M80s? I have to say, I am a little concerned about the 80s, as I have noticed a slight tendency for bass echoing in this high angled ceiling of mine, though I like the reviews and dual tweeters/midrange! Also, do you know anything about this receiver, and how it might compare to some other choices that I have heard other folks discussing? Any reply appreciated. Even though I am still in the deciding stage, I can hardly wait to hear my new speakers!

The difference in the distortion ratings at the various impedances will not make any difference to the performance of your system. The bass echo you have noticed in your room would not be eliminated by the speaker selection unless you decided to eliminate the low frequencies all together, which is probably not desirable. Have you tried moving the speakers out into the room slightly? This generally works pretty well for this kind of room problem.

Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer

I would hesitate to spend that much money on a JVC product. What other products have you short listed for review?

In terms of amplifier stages in any product (amp, integrated or receiver) the power supply and output devices. Well designed amps require very sturdy power supplies to maintain quality, stable output. Output stages should be of quality electronics, with transistor output stages being superior to all IC based designs. (Tubes are another output device, but we won't venture into that territory here)

JVC MSRP for that piece is $1700, and that could get you into the Rotel, NAD area. These are better quality gear, far better designs than JVC/Pioneer/Yamaha, and above Onkyo/HK/Denon on most models.

Also, specifications should not be the main reason for purchasing any product. In some cases there are no defined standards for measurements. This can lead to confusion. There are other thread that deal with topics of specifications, and may be worth a read.

Regards,

BBIBH

Unfortunately, there are no (I mean NO) high-end audio stores where I now live. If you don't like the K-mart selection, most people around here recommend you try out Sears. So, since I've moved here, I had to make do with reviews of products. This JVC receiver (available online for $1000) got a nod from Sound and Vision mag with a Reviewer's choice 2001 award, and seemed to me to be a good "entry-level" THX Ultra certified receiver. My whole system needs to be redone eventually, but on my current budget, I was looking at some Axioms and a THX receiver, along with a basic big screen TV. This will already be miles above what I currently have, and already more than my wife wants me to spend! I might like the Denon 5800 (for example) but that is nearly 4x the price. In the $1000-1100 price range, are there any other THX -ultra receivers that you would recommend I take a look at? I would appreciate any advice you have to offer. Thanks Chris R

Oddly, I haven't noticed a problem with music; but then again, I only have a small pair of bookshelves with limited bass response. I have mainly noticed the echoes with talking, pet noises, clapping, yelling etc. There's an odd reverb to the room, but fortunately, the music all sounds pretty good right now. I guess I'll just have to try your speakers out in this room and see how they sound! Thanks for the input on the distortion levels. BTW, you said before that the VP150 was well timbre-matched to both the M60 and M80. Any chance with the extra tweeter on the VP150 that it might overshadow the M60 in the high-end and midrange, as compared to the M80? Same question with the dual tweeters on the QS-8 vs. the QS-4s. I guess what I'm asking is - if I have decided on the VP-150 and QS-8 as the "supporting players" in the system, would the M60s be a reasonable pairing, or would you recommend the M80? Thanks, Chris R

All the models in our line are designed for accuracy, which includes proper balance. The dual tweeter designs have the tweeters matched to the output of the rest of the frequencies in the same way the M60s do. There is no concern about more output at higher frequencies because of the extra tweeter. The extra tweeter in these models will give you more overall output and better dynamics without distortion. In the case of the VP150 you will also have an improved soundstage up front because of the ability to have the array with the tweeters on the outside. Matching with either of the M60s or M80s to the VP150 and QS8s is perfect.

Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer

Well the term "high end" is a subjective term. As we have seem from this thread, and others is that different people in different geographic areas have different interpretations of it.

I never thought I would say this, but....Sears does represent a better range of equipment than Kamrt/Wlamart. It is definitely NOT high end, or even anywhere near midfi.

As for your price range, we have discussed the technical merits of buying the best you can afford. I have found the Rotel RSX-972 online for $1200, and would look into that if I were you.

You are using reviews for their proper use, as a relative guide to form a list of equipment. As you mention there are no quality stores (my apologies to those who frequent the above audio departments), make sure the piece you choose can be returned if you find it severly lacking

Regards,

BBIBH

In the latest issue of Tape Op Magazine, Rupert Neeve, Chief Engineer and President of the esteemed Neeve Company (Mixing boards) made a noteworthy comment that he felt JVC to be among the very best of consumer audio gear. Neeve claims JVC engineers actually listen to their designs and specify better-than-average components, often better than so-called hi-end companies do. FYI

JVC...among the best audio gear?!?!?!? ABSOLUTLEY laugable!!!...
High end? It might be as good as the mass market products it competes with, but would never stand comparison to some of the best equipment around!

I admit it was surprising. I am quoting (or paraphrasing) Rupert Neeve, who's name and reputation is at least known. I do now know your name or credentials, but I am a coffee expert by trade. I know there are such surpises in my profession. I suspected it would generate controversy.

I must admit that I would not consider taking that position. However, the person you name has access to areas of this industry many of us do not. I have spent a lot of time, effort and money in this hobby, consider some of the industries designers friends and foes, and consider myself no greater an expert than the next person.

Again we must remember that this is a subjective hobby, and there is great fun to be had by investigating and making your own judgements.

Coffee expert huh? Perhaps you can post a review of listening to Jazz while enjoying different blends! ;)

Regards,

BBIBH

That's interesting to me too, as I thought of JVC as a "mid-fi" brand at their best, ranging to low-end at some of the mass-market stores. But I have seen good reviews of some of their products before. Since none of the mass-market stores stock the receiver models I was looking at, I kind of figured that they were the "higher end" of JVC. Has anyone seen any head-to-head comparisons of "higher-end" mass market receivers to the "lower-end" audiophile brands? Since it seems to me like these are basically the same price range, but you may get more "features" (like the THX-ultra for example) on the expensive mass market brands.

Also, to get THX Ultra certification, doesn't a receiver have to pass a certain set of criteria - power supply, etc. to satisfy the THX people? In other words, would the construction of a THX Ultra certified JVC receiver need to be any better than a run-of-the-mill JVC receiver, or is the certification meaningless from that standpoint?

This is my understanding of the THX Ultra certification: products that are certified have to have their ability to produce sound that is a "virtual home version of cinema reprodcution". By prodcuing equipment that duplicates large scale cinema sound in your much smaller (for most people anyway) rooms. These THX branding can be applied to amps, speakers, cables (yes it is true...), and most pieces in HT. For receivers and loudspeakers, the "THX Select" certification is for components that are certified to perform in a mid-sized home theater environment of up to 3,000 cubic feet. The volume of a room, expressed in cubic feet, is computed by multiplying the length by the width by the height of the room. (For example, a room that is 18 feet wide by 14 feet wide by 9 feet high, has a volume of 18 x 14 x 9 = 2,268 cubic feet.) The more stringent "THX Ultra" certification (which is equivalent to the original, plain "THX" certification) is given to components that meet the THX performance standards for larger (than 3,000 cubic feet) home theater environments.

Theoretically, if you have a home theater environment that is 3,000 cubic feet or less, "THX Select" receivers and speakers should deliver about the same presentation standards as the higher-rated "THX Ultra" components. For other components such as preamplifiers, power amplifiers, DVD players, the certification is just known as "THX Ultra" (or equivalently just "THX") certification. There are no "THX Select" certification for these types of components.

Interms of designs, these pieces seemingly would be better built than other pieces in the same lineup. The meaning of "Audiophile" is very subjective, and you and I might differ as to where that quality started and which manufacturers are included. Let me say this, high end manufacturers do not typically offer "Receivers". Midfi manufacturers do offer them, and low fi make a substantial number of them. You are also correct that manufacturers may offer different levels of there product at diffferent outlets. Pioneer, Sony and others sell their "upscale" model in different stores in some cases. But this is no different than Honda and Acura. They typically cater to differing demographics.

While I mentioned that "audiophile - hifi" manufacturers do not offer receivers, they can and do offer certified THX pieces. Some of the worlds best offer processors, amps, speakers, etc wih the THX certification ( B&K, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Bryston, Meridian) to name a few.

JVC does not belong in that list on any level.

Regards,

BBIBH

This has been very educational for me. I have learned more in the last few weeks from this and other message boards about audio than I eve knew. As you may have guessed, I am taking my first tentative steps into the exploration of "audiophilia," having always loved good sound, and never having the budget or research resources to explore it. I have always been satisfied with the cheap widely available components because for the most part, it was all I knew and they were still better than what I had. I appreciate the knowledge, information, and patience of those on this and other message boards willing to share with me.


So, my new questions - Many people here and elsewhere talk glowingly of Denon and Onkyo products. Where would you say those fit into the spectrum of audio/video products? From price/features/specs alone, it seems that they overlap with mass market products as well as higher end companies.


Second, you mentioned that audiophile brands don't produce receivers, but I have found reviews for B&K AV receivers, Arcam receivers and some others. Would these be inferior to the separates offered by the same companies in your opinion? And, would they be equal or superior to similarly priced offerings from Denon/Onkyo or the JVC-type crowd?


Of course, this all may be moot, since the AV-THX receivers from Denon, Onkyo, and B&K (I think I really like this one!) are all significantly out of my price range. But I figure, I can at least educate myself in preparation for the NEXT system upgrade! Thanks in advance.

Welcome to the wonderful hobby of audio! I think you hit on a very important point when you said you " ...it was all I knew". Most people should go to a true hifi dealer, and listen. Don't take the dealers word that this sounds good, listen - if you think it sounds good...it does! Some people are so intimidated by a dealer exclaming hifi sound, that they are afraid to say they don't like it. They either buy something they don't like (hating themselves and the dealer), or they leave with a bad impression.

The companies you have found receivers for are midfi companies. There products out perform the JVC's, etc at almost every point - except for radical AV/HT features. In my opinion, these companies are aiming to make a presence in the respective markets. In terms of product quality, many principles used in the separates they offer would undoubtedly make it into these products. Would they be inferior to separates they offer? Probably yes, and only because the separates may be aimed at the music market, and they need to build AV/HT features. As we all know, these are different markets in terms of what the consumer wants, needs and will spend money on. As an aside, some of the better pieces are processors, connected to amps. This is similar to theather setups. One of the most interesting sites I ever saw was the inside of an IMAX setup. If you get an opportunity, ask for a tour! I was working on some hi tech designs inside an IMAX, and loved the sound gear!

You love the B&K? I rather like that as well. Another user hear has an older one, but he has not said much about the quality(we have been exchanging private messages about things). There is another piece that excites me, the SimAudio Attraction. Check THAT monster out! By the way, SimAudio makes some of the best amplifiers I have ever had the privilege of working/listening to.

The key concept to remember is that audio is not a goal. It is a journey. As soon as you get content with a system, chances are you will find another piece that you like better. This can be on purpose, or by accident.

You ask about Denon and Onkyo and in the same thought mention "higher end". The term higher end would be subjective. There are companies slightly higher end, or vastly higher end. I will make this distinction - lowfi (mass market-to be polite) midfi(good quality) hifi(exceptional sounding equipment). Denon and Onkyo are squarely in the lowfi realm, with some pieces approaching midfi. Do not take that as a condemnation of the products, as they are aimed at this market, and designed EXACTLY as they need to be. They do however, have no place in a hifi system - midfi maybe, but not likely.

Regards,

BBIBH

Chris,
I currently have the Axiom VP150 with the QS8s and the M80Ti towers. This setup is amazing, it produces tons of very deep bass yet remains clean all the way to the top. I have not found any speakers that come close to the sound you get from this package without spending 3 times the money. Since speakers won't become outdated by new audio formats (ProLogic, DD, DTS, DTS-EX DD-EX) you may better served by buying the top of the line speakers now and saving your money for the high-end receiver later. If you haven't looked at the outlaw audio receiver yet you can find them on-line at www.outlawaudio.com, they have a very good receiver for only $499. It is not the ultimate piece, but will serve you well until you get the rest of the cash to do the major upgrade.

Just a thought,
Greg

So what makers do you really believe are good to very good? Not limiting this to home theater, what should I buy?

Rick

You need to temper what you buy with your own factors - budget, and what you have heard that you like.

I can dump a list of products I own and recommend, but chances are that you might not like the sounds, look, or the price tag of.

I have preached this before - source quality is where to start. Speaker can in no way add information that your source can not read from the media and supply to the amplifier!
This is a subjective hobby, and I might like something you don't. Neither of us is wrong, just differ in our opinions.

Regards,

BBIBH

BIBBH,

You mentioned:

"You ask about Denon and Onkyo and in the same thought mention "higher end". The term higher end would be subjective. There are companies slightly higher end, or vastly higher end. I will make this distinction - lowfi (mass market-to be polite) midfi(good quality) hifi(exceptional sounding equipment). Denon and Onkyo are squarely in the lowfi realm, with some pieces approaching midfi. Do not take that as a condemnation of the products, as they are aimed at this market, and designed EXACTLY as they need to be. They do however, have no place in a hifi system - midfi maybe, but not likely."

Can I ask where you would slot in Yamaha? I have an AX-596 integrated (2x100), that I've had for a while. Eventually, when budget permits, I'd like to upgrade that system to mid-hi-fi seperates. Nevertheless, I'd like to hear your opinion on Yamaha - please be brutally honest (I don't mind).

Thanks, Wally

**In my opinion...gee, I seem to be starting a lot of posts that way ;)

The only Yamaha musical piece I would consider is their Grand Piano.

This manufacturer slots below Onkyo and Denon, near JVC. They, as have all mass market manufacturers, have made better quality equipment over the past decade. This can be attributed to some of the designs and technologies becoming more cost effective, and in line with the target price point.

As I scan the spec/feature sheet, I am struck by the fact they choose to highlight things such as "Twin Heavy-Duty Aluminum-Extruded Heat Sinks for Efficient Heat Dissipation" and "Gold-Plated Input Terminals", these are not features, they are the minimum requirements for building ANY piece of stereo gear. If these are not present (heatsinks and gold plated terminals), the piece should be avoided. In better equipment, these are a given.

Regards,

BBIBH

The advantage of gold-plated terminals is that there is no corrosion over the long term, certainly a good thing. However, non-gold-plated terminals are perfectly capable of making as good an electrical connection as gold-plated ones. So long as alloy terminals are kept clean (try rotating the RCA connectors to remove any corrosion or use a contact-cleaning spray). I would point out here that professional connectors used where recordings are made (studios) are, for the most part, NOT gold-plated.

Large, heavy-duty heat sinks are a sign of attention being paid to effective heat dissipation of the amplifier output stage, but there are various means of cooling output transistors, including thermostatically-controlled muffin fans (some may be noisy) that are quite effective. Certainly, if you're paying thousands for a Bryston amp or the like, I would expect robust heat sinks and gold connectors. However, to dismiss excellent gear on the basis of not having gold-plated connectors is simply cavalier. By the way, the addition of gold connectors on consumer equipment is a relatively recent feature (within a decade or so). And they do look nice!

Alan Lofft
Axiom Resident Expert

I was pointing out the fact that these manufacturers were advertising items as features that are part of any proper design. Heatsinks (or heat dissapation) a feature? Not exactly something I would want to have left off an amplifier. This is not a feature, but part of the design specifications of an amplifier.

I agree with the connector comment. The main point I was trying to emphasize was that they needed to be sufficient quality to resist corrosion and other issues that crop up in this area. But lets face it, if Yamaha(to chose a name at random) is building a mass market amp, what are the chances they will address proper design points across the board? This goes along with my statements that by having to design a product for price points, certain limitations are placed on the products.

Cavalier? Probably so. But I know what I like, and I definitely take all ideas and opinions in stride when making my decisions. For the most part, the opinions are of friends and magazines. However, I find both leaning to their particular interests. Opinions are very subjective, because as we all know, if you have not experienced a wide range of inputs, the frame of reference is skewed. You had access to areas of the audio world most will never imagine, and buy virtue of this fact have seen and heard the best and worst of this industry. But again, I am sure you have never dismissed something simply because of a preconcieved bias.

Experience is the key. Do you like it? THAT will guide you in whether you buy it or not. As we all have different needs, wants and economic situation, we need to acheive a balance. Do you like a $4k Speaker? Does it fit your budget? Then you may buy it. If it does not fit a category listed, you should not take anyones word on the quality.

Anyway, welcome aboard!

Regards,

BBIBH

But remember, we are not paid to say nice things about stereo company's, we say what is necessary. Our survival does not depend on ad money, and we can be true to what we hear and believe.

Lets not get into a flame war over this. Remember, Alan is an industry veteran with years of experience in the various areas of the industry. His opinion is based on what he has experienced, and it is a welcome addition. I did not take it negatively that he posted a reply, and you should not either.

He has a right to an opinion, and I am sure we will benefit from him sharing his experiences. I would insert that any reader should use his responses to increase their awareness of issues, and as with any opinion (individual, corporate, editorial), it should be a piece of information to be used in your search for answers. If used properly, opinions can guide us to the "promised land".

They should not be the sole reason for choosing a piece.

Regards,

BBIBH

ChrisR:

I don't know where you live, but if you are looking at Axiom, I assume you are buying via etailer. I never thought I'd buy speakers without hearing them first, but took a chance on the Axioms (and SVS subs, for that matter) and am quite pleased with my choices. (M60Ti, VP100, M3Ti).

You should consider purchase of a receiver from an authorized internet dealer. A few that come to mind are:
Onecall.com
J&R.com
oade.com

You can get the Onkyo 898 for ~US$1000 this way.. which is in your budget, and I believe meets your requirements.
http://www.audioreview.com/PRD_125784_2718crx.aspx

I bought my Onkyo 989 from Onecall, and was pleased with the service and price.

Just another point of view...



--speedy

Follow-up
Well, I've breaking in my M60s for a couple of weeks now, and I have to say they are awesome. They happened to arrive when my folks were in town to visit (for the 1st time in my new town) and my dad, an admitted music afficianado, got to audition them with me. He at first thought they were too large (concerned with spousal acceptance) and without reservation assumed that they would have better bass response than in his system. We were both wowed by the midrange, though, and subsequently spent several hours rediscovering my CD collection.

I only bought the M60s, and have deferred upgrading the center and surrounds of my system for now. Why? Well, I have yet to upgrade my receiver, and my old mass market receiver has only 20W to the the rear surrounds. So I've been brooding about this and decided to hold off on a receiver upgrade until I can afford something better. I'm still dreaming about the the B&K AVR 307, but just can't swing it right now! Unfortunately, no stores in my area seem to carry anything higher-end than Denon, Onkyo, etc., so I can't audition the units I want. I am aggressively saving, though. It could happen sooner than you think!

Good for you! Nothing better than a great purchase!
Glad to hear that Axiom is building quality time and family bonding features into their speakers !

Update us when you complete your system!