Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions HELP! Need Ammunition.

In reply to:

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I will have to disagree with Jack, he just used Axiom as an example

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I'm not quite sure what you are disagreeing with. Are you saying you don't think he has singled out Axiom? If this is your meaning, we WILL have to disagree. Two threads within as many weeks? I haven't done a search, but I have not seem him posting graphs for every other company who's graphs don't exactly match their claimed specs.

And, yes the thread WAS about Axiom. That just backs up my suspicion that he is angry enough that he will show up in ANY thread about Axiom to make his point. What I hope for from this thread, is enough hard facts to effectively refute his arguments.

I made only one post in that thread where I pointed out he was linking to out of date graphs (which he is does with the full knowledge that more current graphs exist), and I posted current graphs. Is that what you mean be being "defensive"?

I don't quite understand your reference to the Ascend graph. It was one posted by him in the AVS thread, and I only posted it here as an example of a graph that DOES match the companies claimed specs. In addition, I wanted to show that Ascend labels the claimed specs as "anechoic." I consider this a positive, and would like to see Axiom do the same thing.

At one point you have to step back and realize that paying any mind to this guy is only going to make people think he has a point. It comes down to trust. A lie about speaker specs is not compatible with Axiom's business and research philosophy. That's enough for me to know there's no fudging of data here. What someone else thinks does not concern me, and trying and failing to provide proof that meets his very exacting standards will only make his point seem all the more valid.

Now take a deep breath, in through the nose, out through the mouth. Life is good.

Jack
I've read both threads you are speaking of, and I have to agree that "that guy" is out and out calling Axiom liars. I actually did post earlier in the thread (I,m Seamus over there), but didnt read it again until last night when it was already closed, otherwise I would have posted the answer given at Audioholics (another thread witch I followed closely)
I think with what Ian has stated and with the statements from the thread at Audioholics, you should be able to put together a very factual rebutle to the derogatory comments made over at AVS.
I really dont think your going to change the guys tune, but at least some of the other people reading will consider what you have to say.
I rarely post over there because it seems like the same guys jump in and start calling everyone idiots for not agreeing with their opinions.
In short, I pick my battles well, and some of those guys just arent worth the time or energy.
After spending an hour reading on AVS, I always come back here to where the sensible people hang.

Jack,
He posted and mentioned other companies in the thread.

I went through the thread again, and if you think he singled out Axiom...I won't argue. I will point out that he did mention other companies that do not have matching specs to measurements.

In reference to the Ascend graph, I just meant that all the graphs should come from one source...ie. Soundstage/NRC.

The idea is not to take offense and say he is wrong, the idea is to find out what is going on and prove he is wrong. My research and Ian's post adds up to measuring issues...so the people that took the measurements need to step up and explain. Otherwise it is an arguement with no solution. You have to admit, without an explanation from the folks that took the measurements, there is nothing you can argue with him about.

I was just being sarcastic, yes Jack I realize the best way to handle people like that is with Tact. Factual information doesn't hurt either.

Well I think others, like Craig, mentioned other companies. He acknowledged there were other companies about whom he had the same complaint, and then went right back to bashing Axiom exclusively. If you'll remember, in the first thread, he even suggested that the graphs on the Axiom web site should be disregarded because the possibility existed that Axiom manipulated them.

(Not meant as a challenge, but rather a genuine question) Don't the Axiom graphs come from the NRC? Aren't they valid? Same questions for the Ascend graph. I most certainly agree there should be a standardized methodology for measuring speakers. If different methods are used, we lose the ability to make valid comparisons.

Well, I plead guilty to taking offense at his use of the term "lied to" in reference to Axiom and saying "Axiom is publishing false information." I would also take offense if he was saying it about Ascend. However I will again point out that I did NOT engage in argument with him. I only posted current graphs to offset his malicious posting of links to graphs he knew were outdated.

I agree that the best case scenario is to prove him wrong. I started this thread in the hopes of obtaining information to do just that. BUT, his posting wild speculation and accusations of wrongdoing by Axiom, or any other company for that matter, WITHOUT PROOF, is irresponsible at best, and libelous at worst. It is HE who should have to PROVE his implications. If that is not required, then I could say "Curtis is a wife beater," and then require you to prove me wrong.

Disclaimer: To the best of my knowledge, Curtis is NOT married.

not married....and not gonna be married any time soon. If someone did say I was a wife beater, I would know that for the people that mattered, they would know it is not true. Or, I would let my wife post...and she could say that I wasn't a wife beater, but that I was spectacular in bed.

I agree he could have worded what he was trying to get across differently....but he did lay out his evidence, and even used the graphs you posted....that was a tough one to swallow.

I am not sure if different methods were used, but I think it has more to do with proximity of the drivers to the microphone. The more drivers there are, it looks like the more the measurements are off. I think that the more drivers their are, the more distance is needed for them to "gel". Make sense?

Jack
I admire you for wanting to take up the fight and I think it's noble of you to want to set things straight. I read both of those threads prior to the shut down. I think craigsub did a great job of presenting the "other" side. The main thing I want to say is people like that thrive on those kind of threads. Your not going to change that even with hard facts because then he will find something wrong with those. I read through the entire threads but I gotta tell ya I tired of this guys chest pounding very early on. It is always easy to detect when someone keeps repeating the same crap over and over and refuses to address the other posters(in this case craigsub) points directly. Craigsub showed himself to be knowlegable about many speaker brands, generally unbiased and accepting of the fact that hard facts were hard to come buy because graphs don't tell the whole story. This guy showed himself to have an obvious agenda, narrow minded and not very effective at getting his point across. I found it very obvious and I'm sure most people who read that will too. Don't let this guy get you fired up. He is not worth it, eh?
oz

I see I still have not made my point.

Curtis you seem to think this guy proved his point, to whit, there is a discrepancy between the graph and the specs. However, I have never disputed that point, and it's not that to which I object, nor for which I demand proof. Absent the FACTS of WHY that discrepancy exists, stating, WITHOUT PROOF, that Axiom "lies," "publishes false information," and "can't read their own graphs," is unconscionable. It is THAT to which I object, and of which I demand proof. And, Grandarf CANNOT, and DID NOT, PROVE those implications.

I'm not the least bit interested in convincing Grandarf of anything. I'm interested in the inexperienced newbie who has come to AVS for some information. His head is swimming with all these acronyms and terms that make no sense, dB, Hz, SPL, ohms, wire gauge, digital coax, digital optical, phase, crossover, slope, and on and on. He's been researching for weeks, he's confused by all the options, and he's finally reached the point where all he wants is for someone to say "here is the 'best' speaker!" How may threads do you see over there where it's "Speaker A, B & C: WHICH IS THE BEST"?

This is the guy I'm worried about. This is the guy who very well may buy into whatever the loudest voice says. And if we sit back and, without challenge, let the loudest voice make unsubstantiated pejorative statements, then we are abandoning the newbie to the malicious, and irresponsible among us.

Craigsub had a good summary of this in his sig -- paraphrasing, "the trolls win if we don't do anything"