Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Pioneer 563 vs. Nad 541....CD player challenge!!

Although the thread is about the two cd players, I'll answer:

I have the Dorati Firebird suite on SACD and vinyl reissue. I have presented this comparison to dozens of people and they always choose the vinyl. I've always been amazed at the amount of people who will denigrate vinyl but haven't heard a decent setup (talking about my friends here - boy were their minds changed). Most however, haven't bought turntables simply because it is too inconvenient (convenience means higher sales and there's the rub).

Try: the labels, MusicDirect, Amazon UK, etc.. for new vinyl. New vinyl today is abundant with high quality. It's much better than during the 80s and 1000 times better than that RCA Dynaflex crap from the 70s. Gorgeous sounding albums like White Stripes De Stijl were taken directly from tape to vinyl. Spoon's last album was done on Pro Tools but sounds glorious. The classical reissues are so good it's ridiculous. Many of those I have on SACD and the vinyl beats that.

Secondly, if one is seriously into music, the financial investment is mitigated by the inexpensive used vinyl out there. It's that simple...unless you are downloading of course or are not interested in pre mid 80s music.

Thirdly, only a vinyl collector who doesn't take care of his lps, plays the same record a zillion times, and who can't set up a cartridge properly will experience degradation. Degradation is largely a myth. If you have 500 to 1,000 new lps, how often are you going to play them?

Fourth, most cds are indeed compressed and mastered with "all the knobs turned up", thereby robbing it of dynamics, subtlety, tonal variation and "accuracy" is lost. In my circles, this is largely agreed upon. DDD classical works are some of the worst examples of this. I'd prefer not to denigrate cd as music is music and it is wonderful in any format. I find it most telling that most vinyl supporters talk about how they love the sound and most cd supporters talk about bits and bytes and frequency ranges. Maybe I'm wrong but cd supporters mostly tend to argue their points in the negative as well. Also, telling.

Fifth, wow and flutter is now eliminated as there are now simple products made to eliminate it. Higher end tables do not have w&f. Wow and flutter is now eliminated and if there is w&f it is below the human hearing capabilities. In this case, technology doesn't seem to be "obsolescent". It is quite easy to examine speed consistency of your table and verify this. We are talking about tables made in the last decade, right?

Lastly, the amount of people into vinyl has no bearing on it's quality as indicated in this thread. McDonalds has sold a billion hamburgers but that doesn't mean it's good food. In the end, most people exposed to decent vinyl playback prefer the sound but not the extra work it takes. It's not about fidelity and accuracy (it's only a word), it's about enjoying the music. If one thinks cd is better and more enjoyable good for them but let's keep the discussion honest and without manipulation.

I know LPs can sound fantastic -- there's definitely care and attention placed into their production. And if you're going by numbers, it stands to reason that a higher percentage of LPs were mastered with "care and loving" than CDs. But is it really fair to compare well-mastered vinyl and poorly-mastered CDs? You mention nothing about the breathtaking ability of a well-mastered CD to transport you "into the moment".

One of the best things going for CD technology is that you don't need to spend a lot of money to reveal most of the benefits of the technology. Almost any modern CD player and any receiver connected to a pair of speakers like Axioms will perform wonderfully. With vinyl, however, a fair amount of tweaking and some expensive pieces of equipment are often required. You have your plinth, your platter, your tone arm, your cartridge, your phono pre-amp, etc. etc. Some bargains can be found, sure, but on average and dollar for dollar, I'm willing to bet better sound can be had from a CD-based system than one that is vinyl-based.

I mentioned I had countless friends over to compare the Dorati Firebird Suite SACD and Vinyl versions...two magnificent versions. Comments I usually hear are: more thrilling, palpable, emotional or often, simply just "better". It never fails. Do they run off and get turntables, of course not! It's not plug and play and it requires time.

I did say I wasn't interested in denigrating cd playback and I truly meant that. My response was more or less to address some comments I thought were inaccurate (wow and flutter, degradation, etc...). I have some 500 cds and about 20 SACDs. When I play the Stones I choose the SACDs.

I'd agree you can put together a better cd system for less money. But the software is more expensive. Used vinyl is cheaper with way more variety. Depends on your taste and how much music you listen to. It's a pretty sweet deal to come home with 7 great lps and have only expended $35. On the other hand, new vinyl reissues and classical are more expensive than CDs or SACD. On the other other hand, new vinyl buys are limited production and hold or increase their value. I have numerous newly released albums that are worth more today than when I bought them. There is a limited supply of decent used vinyl so I'm happy that most people aren't into it.

In reply to:

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My response was more or less to address some comments I thought were inaccurate (wow and flutter, degradation, etc...)

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Whoops... those things are issues with vinyl (along with groove swish and warping). The same way that cassette is prone to stretching and to tape tension. Those are straight facts about the medium. Wow and flutter were also issues with the first generation of CD players, but even moderately priced players are at or below measurable levels these days.

And vinyl is sacrificial, every time you play it, the stylus does damage to the media. It's also relatively soft, if you stack vinyl, the grooves compress, if you stand it up, it gets wavy.

Now, I recently bought a new turntable, mostly to transfer some absolutely irreplaceable vinyl (local 80s punk with pressings of <300 copies) and it was a real throwback to drop a needle for the first time in 10 years, and the very "round" sound brought me back to a time when I couldn't wait to listen to a new album I'd purchased (rather than it sitting on a pile until I have time to listen to it)... it didn't take long to remind me of the reasons I was so enthralled with the first CD I heard though... pops and clicks, even on albums that I was transfering for people that kept their vinyl in a museum-like state... sizzling highs and holes in the lows.

Is CD perfect? Of course not, but the issues I have with compact disc have more to do with the engineering on them than the medium. Since it's so easy for any kid with a trucker hat or Peppermint Patty hair or spiked dickbag to get a free copy of ProTools and hang out a shingle as an audio engineer, whipping out CDs for all his Battle of the Bands buddies on mom's Dell Dimension... quality suffers.

Bren R.

No. Wow and flutter is reduced in any decent, properly maintained table to below the capability of human hearing. Anyone who can read can setup a stylus correctly so that it doesn't damage records and so that they will last a lifetime. And no, stored upright, they do not warp or I must be darn lucky that so few of my used records are warped. Properly clean records do not pop and click unless they are damaged or scratched. It's that simple. But, obviously time consuming. Enjoy the cds.

I recently bought Beck's Guero on 180g 45rpm vinyl. A friend of mine came over, listened to it for awhile and told me it blew his cd version out of the water. His set-up at home is Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v3's, Bryston 3B SST and I'm not sure about the cd player. He had the vinyl in hand not 2 days later. My wife really loves the album so we bought the cd just this last week and I too enjoy the vinyl version better. I love the fact that music is subjective.

That's Beck as in Jeff Beck - guitar wanker, or Beck as in the moderately retarded homeless guy with two turntables and a microphone?

Just in jest,
Bren R.

It's "the other Beck", not "Jeff Beck".

80s punk on vinyl. pretty sweet!