Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Speaker Wire Makes a Difference!

I recently upgraded my office system with a pair of Onkyo M282 2 channel amps for a 5.1 channel system (4 x M22 type Michaura M55 speakers, Dahlquist 15" subwoofer). I use an Axiom made Merak MC6H center channel speaker with 2x6.5" drivers and a great big horn tweeter. A few months ago, on a whim, I picked up a Radio Shack Super Tweeter which is connected to the center channel's speaker posts along with the speaker cable between the center speaker and the receiver.

The ~12 gauge speaker wire I was using was too thick to leave room for the super tweeter's connection. I got some cheap thin speaker wire from RS and lost much of the slam and depth that I previously enjoyed. I know those who know better will laugh at this, but the difference was quite noticeable to me.

I just received a single strand of Mapleshade's Clearview Golden Helix speaker wire (their cheapest wire). I've been playing music in the background all day. Tonight I watched NYPD Blue. I enjoy the energy of that show's bumper music. Last week it sounded dull and disappointing due ot the lousy RS speaker wire. Tonight it was wonderful. Alive, energized, full, fast and enjoyable.

I've been working late and listening to the space music channel on my digital cable service (Soundscapes). There is an enormous improvement over the cheap RS speaker wire and even over the thick undistinguished stuff I was using before.

I'd elaborate except I'd rather not hear the guffaws from chesseroo, etc., about how there can't be a difference and how I'm either kidding you all, or just myself. I'll just say that the highs are better, the mids are better and the lows are better, as are anything in between. Air, clarity, sweetness, more realistic and pleasant sound reproduction.

Looking forward to trying some DVD Audio discs, regular CDs, and some movie DVDs.

If anyone hasn't tried Mapleshade's weird, wonderful and modestly priced speaker wire, do yourself a favor and consider trying it out!

I do not have any interest in Mapleshade or any other audio venture, producer, marketer, publisher, etc. I'm an audio consumer, a junky for modestly priced stuff which I hope will far outperform its pricetag, you know, like Axiom's speakers.

2x6,

You're a brave soul for going down this road again.

As per usual, one principle still stands:

blind test

By your description, your impression of the cable swapping was anything but a unbiased attempt at listening for differences.

YOU hear a difference, great. Enjoy your system.

IS there really a difference?
I doubt it.

Note this particular line that even describes your brain break-in time before you hear a wonderful difference:
"...single strand of Mapleshade's Clearview Golden Helix speaker wire (their cheapest wire). I've been playing music in the background all day....Tonight it was wonderful. Alive, energized, full, fast and enjoyable."
Did the cable not sound that way when you first connected it?
Did you A/B the cables without switching them yourself or knowing what channel had which cables hooked up?

Come on 2x6spds.
If you are going to keep pushing that tired old opinion, at least try testing all these materials in an honest way.
Newbies on these forums look at posts like yours and go wasting huge amounts of cash for nothing, sold on mass marketing advertising, scientific jargon and biased consumer reviews.
That is why i continue to reply to such unvalidated, fallacious statements about the amazing sound changes.
Maybe a visit to Axiom and the NRC labs for some real blind testing would be a fun vacation.
Why is it so hard to believe in the human hearing science that has already been done?

You say that you bought "thin" wire from RS to replace 12 guage wire? How thin was it? Was it of like kind of the previous wire? I don't think anyone here would argue with you that in general, higher guage wires decrease sound quality when comparing like kind wires. I think the only argument would be that one brand costing several hundred dollars/ft. with fancy craftsmenship (being equal guage and material) makes such a difference.

I didn't try to fool myself by conducting a one man double blind test.

I had the music on low in the background during the day, because I was working and taking phone calls. During the evening, I could turn the volume up a bit. At 10 PM I kicked back and watched NYPD Blue. It's one of the shows I try to catch every week.

I am familiar with the bumper music for NYPD Blue and know when it is well or poorly reproduced. The difference I look for is percussive slam, and soundstage width. Didn't have it with the RS cable, does with the Mapleshade.

I'd love to visit the NRC labs and conduct a real double blind test.

You've visited the NRC labs and conducted a real double blind test to demonstrate that "Speaker DOES NOT Make a Difference," right? Why not tell us about it.

Hello SonicFox

The thick speaker wire I used was braided copper, I think about 12 gauge with transparent insulation. The thin Radio Shack wire is the copper in black and red insulation stuff on a spool. Can't find the spool to tell you exactly how thin but I'd say about 18 gauge. The Mapleshade is weird, really thin wire, I mean really thin! Insulation is supposed to be 2/10,000" thick. The cost is not hundreds of dollars a foot, but rather $5/foot.

I think spending thousands of dollars on cabling would be a bit whacky.

$5 a foot! What a bargain! It would only cost me $300 to run that stuff to my qs8s. And the difference will be night and day compared to the 12 gauge copper I'm currently using, right?

Don't know whether it would make a difference or not.

I'm in a similar position and won't spring for this fancy wiring for my 5.1 or 7.2 HT systems. I'm using the Mapleshade speaker wire for my center speaker only (office system) and for my 2 channel stereo system.

I have phoenix gold 12 ga, about 50 cents per foot

i have kimber 4pr, about 3 dollars per foot.

that's about 2.50$ difference per foot, or 4 times pricier.

When i compared them BLINDLY (i had my roomate change the cables), i can't pick which i like better. there is maybe a slightly different sound, or maybe just my mind hearing it slightly differently because i think the cable is changing. No where near 4 times better, and kimber has a 'good reputation' for making high quality products.

but why are we talking about this again?

Because its such a juicy subject. People views fall on exteme sides which always is subject to question.

Saturn

ps: I love Kimbers!!!!

Counsellor, while the statements on the Mapleshade site concerning their audio "products" are notable for their sheer mendacity(I particularly enjoyed reading about their bi-wire jumpers to replace the "bad-sounding" brass ones),I concede that the relatively lesser screwings delivered to their customers(e.g.$5 a foot instead of $100 a foot)constitute audio misdemeanors rather than felonies.

That's very good, John!

Well, an excellent audio placebo effect for a paltry $5/foot is a deal!

There's a 30 day return policy on Mapleshade products. Why don't you try some of their speaker wire and report back? Shipping charges on wire are pretty light.

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You've visited the NRC labs and conducted a real double blind test to demonstrate that "Speaker DOES NOT Make a Difference," right? Why not tell us about it.

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I don't have to visit.
The studies have already been done and published.
If you are interested in reading the results, i can give you some journal references for you to research.

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There's a 30 day return policy on Mapleshade products. Why don't you try some of their speaker wire and report back? Shipping charges on wire are pretty light.

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I highly doubt you would consider my opinion worthwhile , even though i am not trying to spite anyone, but i'm always interested in testing things for fun if i can do it cheaply or free.
I will head over to the Mapleshade site and peruse.
The Canadian duty/shipping issue is often a deterrent from such a venture though.

On the contrary, Chess. If you tell me you have personal experience with something, I'd value your opinion very much. It's the philosophical statements of matters of faith and belief that I find a bit dubious.

If you say I have CD Player X, hooked it up to system N, and it sounded better than CD Player Y, I'd believe you ... CDP (X) in that system sounded better to you than CDP (Y) in that same system. If you said, I listened to it, and found CD(Y) to have loose blowsy bass, reedy mids and upleasant highs, I'd know what you're talking about and wouldn't doubt you.

If my experience with CD(Y) differed, I wouldn't call you a liar, or deluded by poor testing methodology, I'd say, my experience differed, maybe you had a bad example of CD(Y), ... like that.

If you tell me, CD(X) can't be better than CD(Y) because all the wise men who have tested them and reported in magazines CD(Y) is better, then I'd say, "what do you know."

2x6spds
You might be a lawyer trying a logical argument, but in the world of science, personal experience means nothing.
If scientists only ever believed their own personal experience before accepting a theory, science would never be where it is at today. I can't even imagine trying to reproduce work done by Einstein, but some people have. Most have reviewed his theories and found no real flaws in his data and hence accepted his theories.
Such is the way of science.

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If you say I have CD Player X, hooked it up to system N, and it sounded better than CD Player Y, I'd believe you

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You shoudln't. Ever.

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If you said, I listened to it, and found CD(Y) to have loose blowsy bass, reedy mids and upleasant highs, I'd know what you're talking about and wouldn't doubt you.

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Again, you shouldn't believe me at all. You should believe your own ears. Not my subjective opinion.

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If you tell me, CD(X) can't be better than CD(Y) because all the wise men who have tested them and reported in magazines CD(Y) is better, then I'd say, "what do you know."

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We are not talking about some magazine written by Joe Blow who has been a self professed audiophile for 20 years.
We are talking about journal papers, with real numbers. Studies done on real people who have ears the same as the rest of the world. Those numbers show that people cannot tell the difference between different brands of wire (assume same gauge and core material).

The suggestion you make about personal experience of CDPx vs CDPy is based on SUBJECTIVE opinion, biased by whatever biases our minds carry from minute to minute, day to day.
Do they sound different?
A blind test with more than just you and it would certainly give us an easy answer to such a question.
In the meantime, we can use our own ears to decide if there is a difference, but if you can accept the fact you know details like price, brand, etc., then you have to accept the fact what you are hearing is NOT an objective measurement.
Of course we would like to think it is, but it simply is not. As a lawyer you should know that of the most objective people we have in society today, judges, even have certain biases about rulings (some judges easier on deadbeat husbands or first time offenders, etc.).

The tests about speaker wire that i know about are not MY personal experience, but they are another scientist's personal experience coupled with data as tested in the most UNBIASED manner possible.
THAT is why i believe those journal papers over someone's 'opinion' in regards to cable influences.
There is nothing to doubt here, electronically or by human hearing standards.

As for my personal experience, i believe i talked about this quite a long time ago and i think it was in a personal post to someone. Lets see how much my opinion is taken as fact here.
I have heard 3 types of cables before, years ago on a roomates system (Dynaudio speakers, Pioneer receiver, Yamaha cdp) when he was trying to find 'better' cables for his system. He asked my opinion (one set of Nordost vs Audioquest vs generic if i remember correctly) and after hearing the three i gave him my choice. I didn't know prices but i liked the looks of them. I don't ever remember hearing any differences but the fact that i chose the ones that looked good is a bias. The fact that i did not hear any significant difference to choose one set over another again only shows that if there is actually any difference at all, it is so incredibly miniscule that it is no where near worthy of the verbose and exaggerated reviews that cables get today.

To put things in a completely different perspective, if a $100,000 microphone and listening system cannot measure any differences in signals or frequencies between cable brands, how is it that people continue to believe their $2000 Axiom system and $1000 receiver can pick it out?
I know the Axioms are very detailed but really....

On an off topic, where did you ever come across those Merak speakers? ebay only now? Still in RS?
I have a friend locally who was asking (something very within his price range).

Expounding on your lawyer theme, my DA friend told me that it is common knowledge among jurists that eye-witness testimony is the least reliable type of evidence (most likely to be inaccurate) yet is the most persuasive with juries. You can't always trust your senses, much less those of someone else (I can't believe I ordered M60s without ever hearing them).

Similarly, our perceptions of sound quality are tainted by preconceptions about speaker wire. If two wires both have copper strands amounting to the same length and the same thickness, HOW could there be a difference in sound quality?

The wires do not create the signal nor do they reproduce it. They are like the air around us - it carries sound waves but doesn't produce them. It carries sound waves but doesn't register them. Does the air anywhere in the world affect the quality of the sound waves which it transmits? Air is air - copper is copper.

I've never posted a legal opinion, I joined this board because I own and enjoy Axiom products. I don't know or care what you all do for a living, so why don't we just focus on why we're all here, to talk about sound reproduction, and Axiom speakers.

I have no understanding of how wires and electrons really interact. I suspect that you all have no idea either.

You could analogize, does water care what different pipes of the same diameter are made of? But, wires are not pipes and copper is not air, and electrons are not water.

So, we hear, "trust your own ears," but also the criticism that reliance on such experience is worthless and subjective.

What I was saying is that I do trust my ears, and what I hear. I also said that I would trust your report as to what you hear to be an honest report, no more.

I hear a difference between the Mapleshade Clearview Golden Helix speaker wire connected to my center channel speaker relative to the Radio Shack speaker wire I used before.

My 10 year old JVC 6 disc changer sounded MUCH better than a Cambridge Audio D500SE which I had for a short while.

Just because I have no explanation for these perceived differences, I won't discount my experience.

Get a set of Mapleshade speaker wires or interconnects, try them yourselves, listen and let us know whether your subjective listening tests reveals any difference in sound. There's a 30 day money back guaranty.

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have no understanding of how wires and electrons really interact. I suspect that you all have no idea either.

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I do. I have a degree in it. I have a background in RF communications which heavily focuses on transmission theory. I have a background in circuit design which focuses quite a bit on how electrons and wires interact. I have a background in EM which covers the way these interactions create fields that interact with the world.

I'm telling you that the level of difference is so trivial as to be irrelevent. But every time I've said that, you've dismissed me, so I'm not going to bother again.

I don't really want to dive into this debate, since I haven't done the research or compared speaker wire myself. On the side that thinks expensive cable doesn't matter, it seem we often here "copper is copper". Is this really true? Are there different levels or quality of copper? Is some copper not as "pure" as copper used in other wires and therefore the pure one makes for a better wire?

Zarak,
Most companies advertise (and i would suspect then to use) cables with a core of 99.9xxxx% OFC (oxygen 'free' copper). Some also adverstise this as the level of copper purity (i.e. copper w/o any other significant amounts of metals).

The cable comparisons usually debated comes from using same gauge, OFC brands which all tout they have the 'purest' copper cores.

Would people be able to hear the differnence between 2 copper cables (same gauge) different brand?
No. The results show statistical random selection.

Would people be able to tell the difference between a copper core and a silver core?
Now that is a good question to ask.
Perhaps Alan knows if this has been tried at the NRC before.

It looks like I need to throw this link out here again. It is by Roger Russell of McIntosh fame.

http://home.earthlink.net/~rogerr7/wire.htm

Both Maple shade and some Kimber are silver plated over copper. I don't know if that extra property could make the copper sound different. A lot of high end cables are either silver plated or have a varied degrees if silver core.

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=1587

http://www.innerear.on.ca/accessories/nordost.html

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=417

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=419

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/silversmith_silver_cables.htm

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/nordost_cablesystem.htm

Yes copper is copper but these ones have a silver lining.
I would definitely like to see if a someone can blind test a silver wire vs a ratshack 16g lampcord with an upper end revealing speaker. What we are looking for is not which is better sounding but if there is a difference at all in sound charateristic.

Saturn

I have had the opportunity in the past to do blind comparisons as described here. Frankly, I couldn't tell the difference. Semi, what I would like to know is this: When does the gauge of wire have an effect? I noticed when I swapped the speaker wire on my car amp for a heavier pair, it seemed to play louder with less distortion. I don't think sonically it sounded any different - just louder. (Any yes the connections before were solid) I know that a heavier gauge will handle more current, but was this just my brain telling me it "must" be better?