Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Will the M2i's be sufficient?

I have a living room that is 15x17 with 9' ceilings. (Rear wall has a 9' opening, as does one of the side walls.) I am trying to put together a good sounding speaker system for near $1000. I will mainly use it for home theater and occasionally to listen to music.

I don't understand enough of the difference between the m3ti's and the m2i's to know which to pick.

My thought is to get the vp100 center and 4xM2i's for the front and rear speakers. I am not overly impressed with the Axiom sub's, what would people recommend for this system?

My current receiver is a Pioneer vsx-108, which I plan to replace with a denon receiver later on. (Will the Pioneer even power these? http://www.epinions.com/elec_Home_Receivers-Surround_PioneerVSXX-Pioneer_VSX-108/display_~full_specs)

Any help would be greatly appreciated! I am very new to this.

EP, welcome. The M2s would work well in your room if you don't need extremely high sound levels. Likewise, the 50 watts of your 108 would be fine unless the levels got really high. For $1,000 I'd suggest 2 M2s up front and since you're thinking mostly HT, use the wide dispersion QS4s for surrounds. A sub would be essential and for around the remaining $300 in your budget consider the Hsu STF-1 or the similar Outlaw LFM-2. You can temporarily do without a center speaker and use the M2s to create a "phantom" center. When your budget permits you could consider a vertical M2 or a VP100 for a center.

Thank you for the reply. Can you explain why the dispersion speakers are a better choice? What benefit do they offer over a standard bookshelf speaker?

I recommend you read this link regarding surround speakers.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/archives/surroundsexplained.html

One thing to point out is when you mention rear speakers, I'm sure your referring to the left/right surround, there is a difference. Unless your talking 7.1, then you have the left/right surround, and the left/right rear speakers. A direct radiating (bookshelf) speaker will not envelope you in the surround sound like a quadpolar design speaker like Axiom Qs4's or Qs8's. With direct radiating you have to almost be in the sweet spot. The reason why theaters are lined with direct radiating speakers along the walls, is to surround you with the experience. The Q's have 4 drivers firing all in phase to give you an experience you will never forget

Okay.. I only plan to have a 5.1 system in my living room. I wish I could think of a good way to diagram my living room.. to help with speaker placement. From what I gather, however, is I am supposed to use these "quadpole" speakers in the back. How high should they be mounted on the wall? Also.. that brings up another question.. How should I place the front speakers? I have an entertainment center that has speaker cubbies at about 5' in height only seperated by 4'6" in horizontal space. Is that enough, or should they be spread apart more?

I am also nervous about not getting a center channel speaker. They sound so good in the systems I have heard. In a store I heard the B&W 602 s3 speakers in action and was very impressed.

From the Axiom FAQ:

Where should I place my surround speakers?
Ideally, surround speakers should be either wall-mounted or stand-mounted to either side of the couch or primary listening area, from one to six feet higher than seated listeners' ears, and slightly forward or rearwards of the listening area if you wish. Axiom's Quadpolar surrounds are especially versatile and can yield excellent performance with stand or wall-mounting to the rear as well as at side locations. (see our dedicated stands for the QS Surround speakers in the Store). Rear center speakers for 6.1 and 7.1 installations are intended to go on the rear wall at about the same height as the surround speakers.



Keep in mind that this is only a guideline. Most of us, in the real world, have to adjust placement to fit our rooms. The closer to this you can get, the better, but don't agonize over it if you can't get exactly these angles.

okay.. what height should the front speakers be? And with those quadpole speakers, which direction should they face?

EP, the front speakers should have their tweeters close to ear level(or at least pointed toward ear level). The side surrounds should be about 6' up on the side walls and slightly behind the listening position, facing straight out into the room.

I have had some stereo guys tell me to point the rear speakers at each other in the back of the room. Is the way I show the living room the correct way to set up the room? (subwoofer in the corner, front speakers on stands at ear level, rear speakers up high directed into the room.)

With the walls the way they are, should I still be considering quadpole speakers? Do I center the speaker into the room?

No, in a 5.1 setup these are side, not rear, speakers. I don't see your diagram.

Bummer.. I see the image. The url is..

http://www.freewebs.com/epchristi/LIVING_ROOM.jpg

It's possible that the web site where you photo is hosted won't allow linking. You might try a free image hosting web site like Photobucket which many of us use. Just sign up, upload your photo, copy and paste the url, with the [img] tags before and after, into your post, and you're in business.

In reply to:

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I have had some stereo guys tell me to point the rear speakers at each other in the back of the room. Is the way I show the living room the correct way to set up the room? (subwoofer in the corner, front speakers on stands at ear level, rear speakers up high directed into the room.)

With the walls the way they are, should I still be considering quadpole speakers? Do I center the speaker into the room?

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HAH! I copied and pasted the url into my browser and was able to see your diagram.

You;ve got the surrounds in the back corners pointed diagonally toward the opposite front corner. If you were using direct radiating speakers (like the M2) as surrounds, that might be the way to go. But, the QS speakers should be placed on the side walls, slightly behind the listening area. As long as they are at least 6 inches, or so, from the back wall, they will be fine.

The QS's come with a "T" shaped bracket that you attach to the wall. When you slide the QS onto the bracket, it, automatically, will be aimed in the proper direction.

I used freewebs.com, because I saw lots of other people were using it. I had messed up my url link last night, I fixed it. Perhaps now people could see it?

I still can't see it, but that could just be me.

I didn't make it clear to the rest of the board members that the diagram above was altered (poorly) by me to show where I believe the QS speakers should go.

I ran my HT system with M2 mains for a while. The sound quality is fantastic (at least with a good sub) but I think the speakers might be a bit small for that room unless you are going to be careful with the volume (and that's no fun ).

I would consider M3s instead... roughly the same price and the specs are very similar, but the M3s seem to be comfortable at higher SPLs than the M2s.

What is the difference between a down-firing sub vs what I typically see? Which is preferred? Does the down-firing sub get muffled in any way? What about people on the floor below the down-firing sub?

It really doesn't matter which direction the subwoofer driver fires as long as there is an inch or two of clearance before the nearest surface is encountered. Deep bass wavelengths are very long -- one 20 Hz cycle is over 50 feet long -- so they are not affected by nearest-surface reflections like higher wavelengths are. Also, your neighbors won't be able tell if your sub is side or down-firing. Bass energy is omnidirectional and travels very well through solid surfaces, so if it's loud they'll hear it no matter which way it's firing.

First, I really appreciate everyone's help! I feel like everyone is excited about axiom speakers and excited about helping people. I appreciate the time.

I think I have decided to do a pair of m3ti's and a pair of QS8's, with a VP150 for center channel. That's higher than my original budget, but I think I will be happier in the end.

My final concern, however, is the placement of the QS8's. I have windows along the far wall and a huge opening. I updated a drawing at:
http://www.freewebs.com/epchristi/LIVING_ROOM2.jpg

The gist is that the rear corner only has 19 inches between the window and the back wall. If I place the 11" QS8 right next to the window, that would give me 8" to the back wall. Is that sufficient? (See drawing)

Or.. am I better off with another pair of m3ti's and directing them into the room as per my previous drawing?

I haven't picked out the subwoofer yet.. so input there would be appreciated.

Yes, where you have the surrounds in the diagram is, I believe, the best place for them. 8 inches should be enough.

If you feel comfortable with giving us a budget estimate for a subwoofer, that would help us make a few suggestion.

Since I have already broken the bank.. I think $300-$500 is probably what I should spend on a decent subwoofer. I think that's in line with what I have put together so far.

I am also willing to entertain other suggestions, as I have already been sort of talked out of the M2i's.

In that price range, I would suggest investigating the SVS PB-10 ISD or the HSU VTF-2 MK2.

Well, EP, the $300 subs I mentioned previously should be fine and if we can entice you into spending more I'd suggest that you consider M22s for the mains.

Thanks. I saw your sub posting. I was hoping to get other suggestions too. If two or more people recommend the same one, that's worth looking at!

As for the m22's.. What is the main benefit if I plan on having a decent subwoofer?

If you're implying that the greater bass extension compared to the M2s wouldn't really be an advantage if you have a sub to handle the low bass, you're right. However, a couple of the other replies have questioned whether the M2s would play loudly enough with low distortion in your size room. I don't know if that would really be a problem, but the M22s have more capacity to play loudly with low distortion.

Thanks for the response. My thought is that the m3ti's would be sufficient for the room size at higher volumes. One of the axiom guys emailed me that. I would be concerned if the system couldn't play well at high volumes. If that is the advantage of the m22's, that it is worth considering. However, I plan to have a sub cover the low-frequency sounds and like the concept of the bookshelf speaker.

The M22s are still nominally bookshelf speakers. They're probably smaller than you think.

Can these speakers be tipped on their side? Or does that affect the sound generated from them? The m3ti's will fit in my entertainment center, while the m22's would only fit if I tipped them on their side. Otherwise I need to spend $190 for speaker stands, which I would prefer not to have to do.

I did some research on subs as well. I noticed the HSU VTF2 MK2 only reaches 25 Hz. Is that an issue. I have read you want a sub to cover down to the 20Hz range. Is it worth it to get the VTF-3 MK2?

Orienting vertical speakers horizontally affects the dispersion unfavorably and should be avoided if possible.

My thought is to not be too concerned with the listed specs on a sub's low frequency extension, which will vary with each room and the position in the room anyway. Any of those which have been mentioned should be fine and my view would be that if you could spend more that it would be better to spend it on the main speakers.

I just realized that my center channel speaker will be approximately 62 inches off the ground if it sits on top of my TV. Should I consider placing it below the TV, even if it's in an entertainment center cabinet?

Has anyone used speaker stands other than the $190/pair ones from axiom?

"Has anyone used speaker stands other than the $190/pair ones from axiom?"

Yes, I spent $40 on my simple but more than do the job stands I bought at a local audio shop. Just a 10X10 base and 6X6 top with two pieces os particle board running parallel between. Works just fine for me. Then again I don't need sexy stands...

I think others are trying to say, and I agree, that you should "Buy the best mains you can afford". Every other speaker/sub complements the mains.

Okay. I am hearing loud and clear. So, it would appear my system should look like this- as recommended.

2x M22's $440
2x QS8's $500
1x VP150 $385

or around $1325 before subwoofer.

At 13 lbs, however. How do people mount the QS8's on the wall if there is no 2x4 to support it? Along my back walls (http://www.freewebs.com/epchristi/LIVING_ROOM2.jpg) there are no 2x4 stud supports where the speaker needs to be centered. Have others encountered that?

I think I am almost ready to go with the system as described and appreciate everyone's help.

I am considering the HSU sub woofers that were recommended.

We had the same situation with our QS8's, so we used toggle bolts for mounting the speakers. Medium to large size, they work great.

I guess I should also say that we used the FMB's to mount the QS8's. So we used two toggle bolts for each speaker mount.

Good system.

I used simple plastic drywall expander screws with no problem with T bracket that comes with the QS8s.

I have that setup plus the EP350. It gets LOUD while staying crystal clear. I've also auditioned SVS and Hsu subs and they both will rock you like the proverbial hurricane.