Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater An audio idiot’s thoughts of the new additions

Another update….

I spent the better part of the weekend playing with the HK’s surround settings, moving speakers, changing X-overs, moving the sub all over the loft, listening to CD’s and watching a few movies. I’m going to have to watch the DVD’s and the Superbowl again, because I was too preoccupied screwing around with things to pay attention to what was on the boob tube…….

By the end of the weekend, I think I got everything dialed in fairly well. Last night we watched the second Zorro, and it was a very pleasurable movie watching experience.

During all this, I learned quite a bit. One thing in particular that I had always thought folks were getting too carried away with, is speaker placement and how they are angled to the listening position. Same for the sub. Prior to this weekend’s discoveries, I thought folks who did this needed to get out more. I’m a believer now.

As I mentioned earlier, I felt the twin M3’s were slightly overpowering the M22 mains. Not much, but just enough to start irritating me, probably because I knew the difference was there. I tried bumping up the R/L channels two DB’s over the center, but that didn’t fix the problem. The center was still too much. The next thing I did was modify my entertainment center some, lowering the M22’s about 8” to where the tweeters would be at ear level. This helped quite a bit, but there was still something bothering me. Sounds just didn’t seam to blend together on those scenes where the sound traveled from side to side. Also, those close ups when someone is speaking was just too much. – Too much center. Too wide….I really don’t know how to describe it other than that. I had set the M3’s on top of the entertainment center above the TV horizontally with the woofers together on an angled shelf that I made out MDF to point them down toward the listening position. I set them this way to duplicate what Axiom does with the VP center speakers; woofers in the middle and tweeters on the ends. At this point, I figured what the hell, and flipped the M3’s over, positioning the tweeters together and woofers at the ends. What an unbelievable changed this made. If I hadn’t have heard it, I’d be telling someone they were on crack if they told me this would make a noticeable difference. By moving the tweeters together, the F/C/L blends together as well as I could hope for. Close up vocals are now localized at the person on the TV instead of “somewhere in front”. While watching the second Zorro last night, one scene had a horse drawn wagon rush across the screen from right to left. It was pretty friggin cool to actually see and hear it move across the front of my loft, and not just the TV. Perfect. If anyone is using two speakers as a center in the horizontal position, try flipping the speakers over, I’m not exaggerating. You’ll notice a BIG difference.

After I got all that figured out, the new ‘coolness’ of having a kick-ass sub was wearing off. Instead of just having great bass and “feeling” the vibrations in the couch, I started noticing that I could hear exactly where the sub was, and also which way it was pointed. I’ve read numerous times from folks who know subs that you should not be able to make this out. Low end frequencies should just ‘be there’, and not come from one spot in the room. At the end of the day, the sub is now about 10’ behind the listening position, pointing in the general direction of the TV. Bass is now everywhere, and I no longer ‘know’ where the sub is. The down side is those cool vibrations felt in the couch have been reduced quite a bit. By moving the sub to where it is now also cost me another $600. When I ordered the 500, I had thought that it should be in a particular area of the loft where the 600 physically would not fit. I wanted one, but opted to go with the 500 for real estate reasons. Well, where the 500 is now sitting is in an area that a vertical 600 will fit quite nicely. In about three weeks, a 600 will be standing there and the 500 will be on a plane back to Axiom. I should clarify that I simply “want” the 600 and do not feel as if I “need” it. The 500 is a very impressive sub. It’s hard to believe that it puts out as much bass as it does being as small as it is (and it’s not exactly small either).

As mentioned earlier, I also listened to some CD’s in two channel mode to hear what all the fuss is about with these cute little M22’s. I turned the sub off and cranked them up for a while. I’m not going to give a long winded report on them, as I don’t really know what to say. In a nutshell, if I was blindfolded and had not ever seen these little fellers, I would not believe that they are as small as they are. Although cute and small, they will pump out some serious sound. Very detailed and not lacking in bass. They ain’t my M80’s by a long shot, but they aren’t itsy bitsy bookshelf speakers either. They’d be perfect for some areas like an office, den, small living room or bedroom.

As time permits, I plan to do some more stereo listening with the M22’s and M3’s in my great room where the 80’s are. I’m just too curious to not try them out. I’d like to set them all up next to the M80’s and so some testing just to hear the differences of the three speakers. When I do, all post my thoughts on that.

To summarize the high points of all this experimenting, here’s my suggestions to the other audio idiots out there like myself.

1- Watch out for them binding post washers. They are there for a reason.
2- When you buy terminated speaker cables, make sure you get the right size and don’t assume anything.
3- Speaker placement is in fact critical and not just something audio geeks do. Try moving things around a bit.
4- Sub placement is also in fact critical. Move that sub around till you get it right. You’ll know when that is too.
5- Make your cables a little longer than you think you need them. (long story that I intentionally left out)
6- X-over settings are important. Try different levels until you get it right. Again, you’ll just know. I’m at 100 now.
7- Turn the sub down from max and don’t leave bottles of beer sitting precariously on window sills when you first fire it up.
8- It takes a lot of patience to file down binding posts with a jeweler’s file.
9- Axiom should consider putting hand holds on their heavy boxes.
10- M3’s are a lot bigger than they look in pictures.
11- Carpet spikes will poke through shoes. Don’t move that sub in bare feet.
12- Carpet spikes hurt like hell when you trip and drop the sub on your foot.
13- Dig the sawdust out of the spike holes first before assuming the factory screwed up.
14- Buy your sub cable extra long, you’ll end up needing the extra length.

Great post !!

Great post indeed. So at a 100hz crossover you don't have any problems locating the sub? I'm somewhat worried because my current receiver, an older Marantz SR5200 doesn't have a variable crossover and is set to 100Hz. I've heard most people run 80Hz or 60Hz and thought I might have a problem. I guess it all depends on the sub and the room as well, but it's good news if I can keep my receiver a little longer.

Also I have one question, did you try the M3's upside down close to the center in the middle of the TV? I've read that it's bad to have an upright speaker tilted sideways (something to do with dispersion patterns I think) and was wondering how this configuration sounds compared to your current woofers out, tweeters in horizontal setup. I suppose that could just be what audiophiles say and it may not be audible to the average person.

Thanks again for posting impressions. They've been helpful!

The X-over point didn’t really help with the sub being, oh what’s the term……? Well, knowing where it is. This was strictly related to where I positioned it. By raising the X-over to 100 from 80, sound just seams to be fuller throughout the area. I think a set of M60’s or M80’s would probably benefit from a lower X-over as they move a lot more air than the little M22’s. I have a very unique situation to where the TV and seating are in a dormer section of a common loft that is open to a vaulted ceiling and the main living area below. Where the sub was, and still is, is an area where the roof rafters go from the roof pitch to the floor (8/12 pitch) and it is covered with knotty pine which is very reflective. When it was closer to the seating area, the roof line (going to the floor) was acting like a chamber that seams to direct the sound, and localize the sub. By moving it away from the seating area to a part of the loft where the roofline is higher, it allowed the low frequencies to even out throughout the loft.

As far as vertical vrs horizontal speaker placement, I think if you were to use one directional speaker, you would have to run it vertically. If not, the highs and lows would be off axis to the listener. That is one reason I went with two. The only place I could set the center was above the TV and it is about six feet off the floor. That’s why I had to build an angled shelf; to redirect the sound down toward the seating area. When I move all this to the dedicated HT room, I plan to use the M22’s as a center and keep them vertical, close together and just below the screen but as high as possible. The M3’s will be used as surround backs, and I’ll be mounting them horizontally and angled downward. If they sound funky, I’ll just use them in the garage and buy another set of QS-8’s.

I’ll post a couple pics when I get time to give a better description of my layout. All said, this has been a great learning experience for me.

Thanks for the reply, I'll stop with the questions now and let you enjoy the new system.

Mike, it was interesting to read of your adventures. I gather that you ran into the too short cable problem(that's the one case where the cables REALLY make a difference!)and that you tragically lost some bottles of beer during combat.

Really excellent review, Mike. Thank you very much for sharing your impressions and adventures.

mdrew - Thanks for taking the time to share all of the above. Very good info on several levels.

Nice write up Mike, thanks for taking the time to do it.

I had just got done getting new carpet and rearranging the furniture. This created havoc on my frequency curve; I had one heck of a peak at around 80 Hz. The system just wasn't sounding as good as it had been. Before I was running the 80s crossed over At 60 Hz. I tried different positions and to no avail, so I remembering this post started playing with the crossover. I tried 40 and 60 but still had a terrible peak (+10db) at 80. When I tried the 80 Hz setting it pretty much got it within a couple of db, so that's where it is staying.

Interesting. Did you move the M80s as part of the re-arranging ? It sounds like the M80s were not in a good place for smooth bass, but taking the crossover up to 80 moved more of the bass to the sub which apparently *was* in a good place...