Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Do *GOOD* "Lifestyle" speakers even exist?

I started to make a thread, but deleted it as it turned out pretty long and boring, so I will just cut to the chase:

I have had my M60ti's for about a week now, and love them more and more each time I listen to them.

For my movie watching duty, I have a set of Klipsch Quintet's, and I know they are small, and sacrifices have to be made with extremely small speakers, but they are "muddy" to the point of I occasionally have problems with vocal clarity during movies.

Problem is, even bookshelves are too big to hang off the walls in my living room. Are there any clean, detailed small speakers that don't have a "boost" somewhere in the lower range that gives the appearance of "bass"? I think this is why I sometimes can't understand dialog...I have tried many things; calibration, placement, angling (toeing), goosing the center +3db over the other speakers; all attempts yielded subtle improvements, but I still don't have the clarity I desire. I even bought a new center channel, which again was an improvement, but still I desire better.

Is there such a thing, or am I asking for the impossible? I don't expect to get M60ti like sound out of ity-bity satellites, but surely at least I should be able to find Axiom like *clarity* with a small speaker???

After having these Axioms, how I wish I could have an all-Axiom setup for HT, but it just isn't in the cards in my current house...

On websearching, I see that Axiom did have a product called the "Epic Micro". Whatever happend with that product?

-Alan

I believe the problem is that you need at least moderately sized drivers to even handle the lower midrange properly at decent volumes for a moderate sized room. I can tell you that M2s with a good subwoofer make a fantastic system for a smaller room, but I haven't heard anything much smaller that is really sastisfying.

The smaller Axioms were discontinued -- only guessing at the reasons, but I imagine the smaller units were not much cheaper to build than the M2-size speakers and didn't perform as well.

The trend today seems to be high performance in-wall speakers rather than small free-standing speakers. Is something like that a possibility for you ?

These have gotten good reviews.
LINK

I would second the Anthony Gallo speakers as one of the best choices for this situation.

Have you looked at/considered the Axiom on wall series? I have not heard them yet, but others who have say they sound like their std bookshelf counterparts. They would look good and provide a sound you like and are used to. Or would that not work for your environment?

Take care,
Rich

I guess I never really thought about it that way...I just always thought that for good bass, that is where driver size matters, but for midrange, I didn't think driver size was that important.

It just almost seems (and from what I have read, pretty common) that almost all small satellite speaker companies "boost" somewhere at the lower end of the satellite's response to give the appearance of them being larger than they are.

I really do not know that much at all about speakers, and maybe the new M60s just have me spoiled, but it almost seems as if this "boost" on my small speakers are what is mucking up the vocal range.

In-walls are a slight possibilty, but with my odd layed out room, not sure how that would work out...

As a possible alternative to my Quintets, I stumbled onto Paradigm "Cinema 90s". I wonder if they would be any better? They look almost like my quintet's but the 90s have 4 1/2" midbass/1" tweeter, low-sensitivity rated sealed enclosure, where my Quintetes have 3 1/2" midbass/ 3/4" tweeter, high sensativity rated ported at the rear-Although they look almost identical, from a design perspective, you couldn't get much further apart!

Funny thing is, one review I found on them (Cnet) gives them a lesser rating than my Quintets, not that I take anything they review seriously, it does give reason for pause. When I did a websearch for "Klipsch Quintent vs Cinema 90" I did find ONE thread that almost everyone gave a nod to the 90's over the Quintets for better midrange clarity...

I appreciate the link to the Gallos...

-Alan

Hmmm...dialog normally comes out of the center channel, but you're saying it didn't help much changing it? Do you incorporate your M60's in your theater system or is it just the Quintet's? If you do in fact use your M60's as the main left and right speakers, then maybe you could try goind without a center (a 'phantom' center) and let the M60's fill the center themselves. Just a thought!

LOL, sorry for the confusion. I have a mess is what I have!

I have Quintets all around, but center was replaced with a Klipsch SLX. On the "B" channel of the reciever is my Axioms for music only.

Its silly I know, but before I bought the Axioms, I *knew* something didn't sound right with my setup, and once I received my Axioms, *then* I could tell what it was if that makes any sense at all...

When I listen to music with my Axiom/SVS combo on the "B" channel, I couldn't be happier. This is by far the cleanest sound I have ever heard! And I do NOT expect this level of quality out of ity-bity speakers, but when I flip back and do comparison, there is a definate "boost" somewhere that is muddying up the midrange on the Quintets.

I may have posted it before, but here is my room; pics are a few years old, so you don't see the new center channel (and I closed off that open space behind it), the Sub, or my new Axioms, but you can get an idea:


http://warez.msmcs.net/MyHost/DSC00570.JPG
http://warez.msmcs.net/MyHost/DSC00572.JPG

There are some other pics in there, but that will give you an idea...

I just got off the phone with my local Paradigm dealer; They have some Cinema 90s in stock. I think I will try and give them a listen sometime next week to see if there is any notable improvment over my Quintets...

Can't hurt...

-Alan

PS What I *really* need now is a dedicated room, then small speakers wouldn't been an issue!

EDIT-What I am kind of completely baffled by, was years ago when I started this mess called "HT", I picked up a set of Klipsch Pro-Media's for my PC. Those things sounded soooooo good to me, that was one of the reasons I went with the Quintets. They look virtually identical, but yet they sound NOTHING alike. How can the pro-medias sound so good, yet the Quintets sound so bad...

Sonic, whenever I first set my system back up last weekend I didn't connect the center channel for reasons I cannot remember and was pleasantly surprised how well the floorstanders created a phantom center by themselves. I believe I would rather try this approach than using another brand for a center.

Have you gave any thought to the placement of the speakers you have now? Having them so far up and close to the ceiling with the center tucked away in the way you have it I'm sure it's not helping with the clarity issue.

Alan, I noticed this before in your other thread, but didn't comment on the point; but why would you voluntarily discard your best speakers for any of your listening, whether it's movies, music, or music in movies? As Mary indicated, why not use the M60s as mains in all circumstances, with some of the Quintets doing surround duty and possibly letting the M60s also form a "phantom" center?

You're correct about the upper bass hump that many small speakers use to give an impression of better low bass extension. Bass instruments playing in that range sound a bit louder and in addition a low bass note, say 50Hz, will have its 100Hz and 150Hz harmonics boosted, leading to what's sometimes referred to as the "missing fundamental" psychoacoustic phenomenon in which the boosted upper harmonics give the impression that the fundamental frequency is there. My listening and viewing of response graphs indicates that Paradigm uses this technique on their smaller, lower-cost speakers.

In reply to:

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psychoacoustic phenomenon

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Have you been spending time around Ajax? I'm not sure what it means, but it sounds good!

Sounds like you want a VW beetle to do the job of a big, bad, 4 wheel drive Chevy truck in the off road. LOL!!!!

ARE YOU KIDDING? An alumus of THE Ohio State University spend time with an alumnus of..............."that school up North," and one who is a lawyer to boot?

From Wikipedia.com:

Psychoacoustics is the study of subjective human perception of sounds. Effectively, it is the study of psychology of acoustical perception.

You guys are too good. Wasn't psychoacoustics used for the weapon in the "Dune" series?

Not trying to sidetrack this tread!

I agree with Ratpack.

I went from a nice 2 channel system in the 70s to "Little Cube", high WAF, speakers in the 80's. Going back to speakers capable of producing the full spectrum in detail has been worth the investment.

The fact that the wife likes the music so much that she wants to dance is the icing on the cake.

I agree with homedad and md55, Anthony Gallo's little Divas are great speakers and integrate well with a subwoofer. I bought a bunch of Klipsch Quintets for gifts, and after listening to them, realized I didn't do anyone any favors. They are not very good.

WOW, I leave for a day, come back, and this thread went by the wayside, LOL (its okay!)

Someone asked why on earth would I be using my Quintets when I have M60s; well, I am not sure if the pic showed up for you, but my TV is "in wall", and there are door openings on either side, so no big speakers for me for HT at least at this point in time.

I have really been listening to ALOT of music lately on my new M60s, and MAN....those things are AWESOME, even after the initial "WOW their here" factor has worn off.

I think part of my problem is now that I know what good sound is like, its easy to pick out bad sound.

Well, I haven't even listened to the Paradigm Cinema series yet and have decided to not even go there. I think ALL these stupid "cute" "HTIB" speakers probably all suffer from the same problem.

I am still looking at options, and I will let you guys know, but what I read on a few reviews of Axiom was dead on:

The major drawback of getting Axiom mains is it will want to make you have an all Axiom setup!

Damn, I just can't say it enough...These things are AWESOME! Okay, so this is the first "real" speakers I have ever owned, can you tell? Prior to my sub purchase, all my equipment came from Circuit City or Best Buy; My M60tis are my second internet direct purchase, and after my experiences with both ID purchases and the quality of the end product, I doubt I will buy anything audio related at a regular store again.

Only part that kind of sucked was the waiting; I am an instant gratification kind of guy, and it was hard to suffer throught the wait (on both my Sub and my M60tis). But in both cases, it was VERY WORTH IT!

As to my HT speakers, I will figure something out; I might try the gallos, or the "reference" series of satellites by some manufacturers.

-Alan

WID-I think you might have hit the nail on the head with reguard to the center channel...

The reasons I placed the speakers so high was several reasons:

1) I based my placement off where real theater speakers are placed. (above ear level)

2) To keep them out of harm's way (I am not so worried about these inexpensive speakers being broken as much as I am damage to the wall if someone knocked one off).

3) Symetrical placement; With my TV being "in-wall", placeing the center channel on the fireplace mantle will block the remote sensor of the TV. The TV is abnormally high to begin with, and weights 230lbs, so moving the TV up, and placing the center speaker underneath poses its own set of problems-not to mention the mantle would block some of the sound. Since the center channel is so high, I didn't want to place my other speakers much lower than it to keep the symetry. The other speakers are slightly lower though.

So, in short; my placement options were extremely limited. I did "close off" that open space above the TV by building a sort of wall using a 6x1, and directly mounted my center channel to it. The remaining surface area on the front of the 6x1 is lined with sound-deading foam. This also allowed me to pull the center channel foward out of that "hole" and is actually forward of the TV screen.

Initally I had been doing ALOT of searching for better lifestyle speakers, but found that quite a few speaker companies incorporate a "boundary compensation" switch for just this very reason! Funny thing is, even the "reference" line speaker that looks almost identical to the center channel I have now includes that feature, yet they left it off on my "budget" line speaker; even though it has the same placement options as the reference one.

I am now currently looking as the possibility of modifying my existing center channel to incorporate this feature and see how the results are.

I figure, its cheaper than buying yet another speaker, and if I just bought another speaker in the first place, due to poor placement might end up with the same problem, so it can't hurt to try!

-Alan

Alan, it all about compromises. Yes, the M2's are larger than what you have now, but smaller than "most" other bookshelves. I think the payoff of clear dialogue is well worth the size sacrifice. Plus if you order them in the light maple with tan grills, they will blend with your walls. AND, you have 30 days to send them back if you don't like them!

Also, I'm with Mary on using a "phantom" centre. I did this for almost 3 years, and it's surprising how well it works.

Unfortunatly, I may have to resort to a Phantom Center. The problem is worse that I thought...

I did an experiment this morning. I sent a test signal (pink noise?) to my speakers one at a time, and walked around the room and evaluated each speakers "tonal qualities" at various points in the room.

What I found was, all the main/surround speakers did change in tonal qualities, but nothing major. I really had to get way off axis to notice any real dramatic change. Fortunately, the off-axis point at which the sound quality changed detrimentally was out of the normal seating positions.

The opposite was true of the center channel. I notice that it had a very narrow axis of good response. Get out of it, and all high end energy just dissapeared as if the tweeter had quit working. Unfortunately for me, although all my speakers are toed/aimed at ear level at the sweet spot, there isn't actually a seat in that position (remember, this is a living room setup). Seating positions are slightly left and right of center, with some being outside this small "sweet area" of the center's radiation pattern.

Remember, i am still new at this, but am learning alot. maybe I have just realized what most folks have known all along-horizontal MTM center channel speakers have some major drawbacks?

I am still researching, but either I am doing something radically wrong, or I find it very ironic that a center channel speakers sole function is to anchor dialog to the screen, which is only really necessariy if you are off-axis of the screen, yet MTM designs (or maybe just my speaker) seems to only work best if you perfectly in front of it and NOT off axis...

-Alan

Hi FirebirdTN,

Rick ("Wid") has nailed part of the problem. When I looked at the photo, it was clear that the boundary effects from ceiling reflections would seriously degrade clarity and sound quality, although expecting any kind of dynamics from tiny drivers in a room this size is unrealistic.

Think of drivers as air pumps. The smaller the driver, the harder it has to work to fill a big space with louder levels. To do that, the driver has greater excursion--it moves back and forth over a longer distance, and as it does that, distortion rises. This includes speakers like the little Gallos, which I've liked in the past. But in a hotel-room demo, as soon as things got loud, you could hear the drivers starting to get a bit muddy.

Your Klipsch speakers sounded good with your computer because that's "near-field" listening. You are up close, at your computer, and the drivers don't have to do much to create ample loudness because you are only a few feet away from them.

There are no magic miniature speakers that will do what you want. You've experienced great sound with your M60s, which are placed properly. If you want similar quality, then consider the in-wall W22s or w2s and don't jam them up near the ceiling.

Regards,

Thanks Alan for chiming in. I do appreciate the fact that you guys are willing to help out, even if my questions aren't regarding any of Axiom's specifc products.

I have no doubt that ceiling reflections are playing a part in the coloration of dialog from my center channel. In the future when I get a larger home (or if I turn my upstairs unfinished bonus space into a dedicated HT)I will definately ditch those small speakers, and make sure they aren't so high up! In my current setup though I can't lower that center speaker, unless I am willing to block the remote sensor of the TV (I am giving it thought-I am exploring all possibilites at this point, including in-walls).

It is kind of frustrating for me, as I still consider myself quite the newbie at this stuff, but have learned alot.

And I could be wrong, but after my experiment this morning, I am convinced the MAJOR issue I am having is with the MTM design of my center channel. Maybe its just my particular center, but from what I have found so far, I am experiencing the exact disadvantages of the typical MTM design-poor horizontal response.

I noticed that if I remin perfectly in front of the center and move toward, and further away from it, the tonal qualities does change some (probably due to ceiling reflections and/or screen reflections), however, moving side to side causes a much more DRAMATIC change in tonal qualties. When out of the narrow horizontal sweet spot (which is the case of my seating positions) all high end energy just dissapears as if the tweeter quit working.

Not sure what direction I will go in, but am exploring possibilities. I suspect, this is probably one reason Axiom's VP-150 deviates from the typical MTM design so prevalent today: better off-axis response? (a guess on my part).

-Alan