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#133112 - 03/23/06 12:55 PM EP350 NOT broken but...
n8wrl Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Clover, SC
At first I thought my EP350 was broken. It is connected to my Pioneer's 'sub out' RCA jack for LFE. All the rest of my speakers are 'small' so sub for those should go to the '350 also. My wife and I were listening to a non-surround source (HBO movie I think) at fairly low volume (kids sleeping) and the sub had gone to sleep - no sound, yellow LED, etc.

I thought maybe the sub was broken, or perhaps the receiver was, since it must not be outputting anything on the 'sub-out' channel. Then I realized, at that low volume there must not be enough bass to wake up the 350. Sure enough - this morning I fired up a similar source at low volume and slowly turned it up. At a not-low-but-not-loud volume the 350 woke up and kicked in.

So I guess my question is, does this amount to a different kind of 'bass hole'? That is, if all my speakers are 'small' which sends bass below the crossover to the sub AND volume is low enough not to wake the sub up, am I missing out on the bass altogether? And/or, would there be any appreciable bass with 'large' speakers at low volumes?

Incidently, for surround-sound sources the 350 gets action even at low volumes - whenever I see the 'LFE' LED blink the 350 'does something' at virtually any volume.

-Brian
_________________________
2xM60ti, 2xM3ti, 2xQS4, VP100, EP350, AudioBytes, EP0

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#133113 - 03/23/06 03:22 PM Re: EP350 NOT broken but...
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi Brian,

There are a couple of things going on here. If you are listening at low volume, increase the Pioneer's sub output level in the Pioneer menu so that there's enough voltage to "wake up" the EP350.

But at low volume especially, human ears are very insensitive to deep bass, so to hear it you may have to manually increase the sub's volume (using its own level control) to compensate for your hearing's relative insensitivity to deep bass at low levels. Whether or not it's worth the bother is up to you.

Years ago, some receivers and preamps (Yamaha in particular) included a variable "loudness" control in addition to the conventional volume control. You'd preset the volume at a normally loud level, then turn the loudness control down to your preferred low level. It would automatically boost bass by increasing amounts to compensate for our reduced sensitivity. It worked fairly well but most consumers didn't understands its utility and were confused by two controls, one labeled "volume" and the other, "loudness". So you rarely find it these days on new receivers or preamp/processors.

Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#133114 - 03/23/06 04:01 PM Re: EP350 NOT broken but...
n8wrl Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Clover, SC
Thanks for the great info, Alan!

I'll have to dig thru the Pioneer manual. There is a 'Loudness' menu setting - looks like it's either on or off, and affects "base and treble at low volumes."

There is also a 'Midnight' setting for "effective surround sound at low volumes."

I see it has the traditional bass/treble controls, with bass centered around 100Hz. That is worth noodling with, but it will be interesting as volumes increase because when we're really cranking a movie (Lord of the Rings this past weekend) we could only turn the sub's volume a few notches above minimum or things fell off shelves!

There is also the option of 'both' for bass - LFE + the base from the front-speakers but only if they're 'large'.

Maybe I'll just tell the kids to suck it up and put a pillow over their heads while we listen!

Thanks again!

-Brian

_________________________
2xM60ti, 2xM3ti, 2xQS4, VP100, EP350, AudioBytes, EP0

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#133115 - 03/23/06 04:12 PM Re: EP350 NOT broken but...
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi,

Right, some manufacturers moved to a simple "Loudness" circuit that if engaged, applied a fixed amount of bass boost and (sometimes) treble boost as well. Pioneer has always done that (my in-dash Pioneer preamp/controller in my car does the same thing). The treble boost really isn't necessary.

The fixed "Loudness" switch is, in my judgment, less successful than the old variable loudness control. You may find if you switch in the "loudness", it will apply too much bass boost and lower sounds may get "plump" or "fullish", especially male vocals or dialog. It's quite unnatural. But there may be one volume setting where the "Loudness" switch sounds good. In some respects, just manually using the bass control to apply some boost works better.

Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#133116 - 03/24/06 03:20 PM Re: EP350 NOT broken but...
Gena Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 120
I had the same issue with my EP350.

In my opinion the 'wake up' level is set too high. It requires a high bass input to operate it. For comparison my old Onkyo sub did not have any problem of waking up from standby at a much lower level.

I was not able to listen to EP350 at regular volume level. Especially annoying was to listen at a level when the EP350 kept waking up and falling asleep again:) I ended up with exchanging it for EP500 and I am very happy with my decision.

In my opinion Axiom should re-evaluate this circuit and either lower the threshold, or put a bypass switch, or eliminate this feature completely.

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#133117 - 10/27/06 11:14 PM Re: EP350 NOT broken but... [Re: Gena]
AndyBaj Offline
regular

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 5

I am having the same problem myself. (new owner). I don't listen very loud and the EP 350 keeps going in to standby.

This is very annoying. Is there anything Axiom can do?
_________________________
M60, QS8, VP100 Yamaha RX-V2600

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#133118 - 10/27/06 11:51 PM Re: EP350 NOT broken but... [Re: AndyBaj]
JohnK Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10360
Andy, welcome. You haven't given any details about your setup, but assuming that you're using an HT receiver with a an internal menu setting for the sub output trim level, you should try to set that higher(so that there's more voltage going out to keep the sub amp "awake")and then you'd lower the level control on the sub itself to compensate for this and keep the same overall sub loudness level.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#133119 - 10/28/06 12:15 AM Re: EP350 NOT broken but... [Re: AndyBaj]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
Hi Andy, I replied to your post on AVS. Below I copied your question over there, as well as my response. Hope this helps. Randy


"I am setting up my new toys and I am having two "issues" with my subwoofer. The sub is an Axiom Epic 350 self powered subwoofer and the amp is a Yamaha RX-V2600. The sub is being run from a single line out RCA (not speaker level inputs)

Issue 1: The sub seems to keep going in to standby mode. Watching "Fith Element" the light turns amber (standby) and only turns green on the boomiest parts of the movie. Unfortunately there is a delay going from standby to on. I tried raising the sub level on the amp (from -2.5db to 0 db) to increase the "line in", but it didn;t help.

Issue 2: The Yamaha YPAO (Auto setup w/ mic) keeps picking the crossover frequency of 160 hz. This seems WAY to high consider my main speakers are towers capable of decent bass (Axiom Epic M60 ti) They should be good down to 37hz at -3db.

I know the subwoofer interconnect is OK because the Yamaha YPAO setup finds and adjusts the subwoofer just fine.

Am I setting something up wrong? "


.........................

Andy, I used to own a 350 before I upgraded to the 500. I have a Denon 2805 and the setup does an ok job for distance (delay) and levels (dB) however, I turn off any room EQ crap, this will make good speakers sound worse. In the case of my m60's it gave me to much midrange, once turned off it was much better.

Anyway, you would be doing yourself a favor to purchase a Radio Shack SPL meter to verify your settings and calibrate you speakers. Also, pick up a setup disk like AVIA or a cheap one I really like is Discwasher Home Theater Setup Silver Edition, it does a great job calibrating your system to 75dB and gives you LFE setup as well.

Here is what I would recommend, first of all turn your 350's crossover knob all the way clockwise to the highest setting (or bypass if you have a newer 350). Since your receiver will be managing the crossover, you want to get the subs crossover out of the way. Next, put the 350's volume (gain) at about 11-12 o'clock position. That worked best for me. Keep our M60's and Q's (if you own them), and center speaker on the SMALL setting in the Yammy setup, and a crossover of 80hz. Also, verify your distance (delay) settings of the receiver. If found the Denon to be a little off. It is normal for the receiver to have the sub delay further than the actual measurement, this is due to the internal circuitry in the sub. For my EP500, I have my sub 3ft further for the DSP circuitry, and another 2-3 ft for the port design. I would say on the 350 to add 3-5 feet for the delay setting.

The green light will go on when a signal is detected, but should not go off/on like you describe. My guess is that either your receiver and/or sub gain was set to low or something like that...On my Denon, with the 350 gain at 11-12 o'clock, my Denon was about -2dB for the sub.

Hope this helps. You could always post on the Axiom forum for advice as well..

Randy
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#133120 - 10/28/06 12:49 AM Re: EP350 NOT broken but... [Re: AndyBaj]
JohnK Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10360
Okay Andy, it would have been helpful to include the info in your post here that Randy copied from the other site. You should try a more substantial increase in the sub trim level on your 2600 than -2.5dB to 0. The 2600's sub output has lab tested at 6.9 volts and you can try substantially above 0 on it. If even turning it all the way up doesn't keep the sub amp "awake" there's a chance than your particular amp has a defective auto-on circuit and should be replaced. If so, contact Axiom directly about it.

As to the 2600's auto-calibration setting a 160Hz crossover, simply set the calibration to "skip" the crossover setting and set it at 80Hz manually.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#133121 - 10/28/06 08:01 AM Re: EP350 NOT broken but... [Re: JohnK]
AndyBaj Offline
regular

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 5

Here are my equipment details. Sorry I forgot them.

Axiom Speakers (M60s, QS8s, VP100, EP350)
Yamaha RX-V2600 HT receiver

I will try cranking the sub output from the Yammy and lowering the volume knob on the sub.
_________________________
M60, QS8, VP100 Yamaha RX-V2600

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#133122 - 10/28/06 10:37 AM Re: EP350 NOT broken but... [Re: AndyBaj]
AndyBaj Offline
regular

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 5

Okay I tried a few things.
I switched patch cables just in case this one was faulty.
I set the subwoofer volume control to about 9 o'clock (low)
I set the amplifier's subwoofer output level to +10 db (!!)

The sub light still only goes from amber to green on loud explosions or other heavy bass notes.

Also, in some cases the light goes from amber back to green in like 10 seconds. Is that normal?

I guess I will send a detailed email to Axiom tech support.
_________________________
M60, QS8, VP100 Yamaha RX-V2600

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#133123 - 10/28/06 01:30 PM Re: EP350 NOT broken but... [Re: AndyBaj]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5279
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
>>Also, in some cases the light goes from amber back to green in like 10 seconds. Is that normal?

The time from amber to green is presumably a function of the audio content on the DVD you are watching. It's the time from green to amber which should be controlled by the auto-on logic in the subwoofer. If you meant green to amber, 10 seconds does seem awfully short.

Separately, the one time I saw this problem it turned out that the wiring and setup from DVD player to receiver/amp was incorrect... they were actually listening to the stereo feed from the player not the digital feed with LFE channel. As a result, there was almost no LFE being fed to the subwoofer (just the low notes from the mains) and so the sub didn't turn on very often. Probably not the case here but thought I should mention it "just in case".

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#133124 - 10/28/06 05:58 PM Re: EP350 NOT broken but... [Re: AndyBaj]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
Andy, just want to make sure your using a COAX subwoofer cable? You mentioned "patch cable"... just curious.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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