Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater new, want views in a few areas, details within...

Hello Everyone ,

new man here. Please bear with me, as my knowledge is by no means on par with what I have seen here...where to begin? I'll be moving and not sure of the room dim's.(currently w/ military over seas) i THINK it'll be
--- room @ 12x15 sq. ft. 8 ft ceiling, OR as large as 15x30x8. (its one of two houses, thats why the diff #'s)
--- Yamaha rx-v2500 receiver [new, not used yet, pd. 600USD]

--- looking hard at:
m22ti x2 mains, [on axiom stands]
qs8 x2 surrounds, [on axiom stands]
vp150 x1 center

--- sub is my biggest question mark. not sure about the ep350, what I have read here and elsewhere lead me to believe there are better subs solutions in the 500-700USD range. considering HSU VTF-3. any and all input, enlightenment is all appreciated.

--- the system will be for Music, Gaming & Movies. that is why I am looking at getting the HSU VTF-3, as what I have seen suggested that it is a very stong musical sub. I would rather have one that picks up the nuances in music and movies than one that will rattle the windows. again, please give me your views on what to choose.

--- the yamaha rec. is 7.1 capable, but I was thinking to run in 5.1. is that good or bad choice?

--- have 90ft. bulk axiom speaker wire. what connectors whould be good? the axiom ones seem a bit steep in price to me.

--- have 61" JVC - HD 61Z786 [HDMI connectable]

--- so ... DVD player? any that has DVI/HDMI to HDMI? as i said I am new to this, please bear with me. the yamaha rec has what they term is UPconversion, so maybe if someone has this rec can shed some light for me? Do u only need ONE connection to the TV? from the receiver? with all DVD, VCR, game consoles and such connected through the receiver? sorry if I sound lame , but one must start somewhere.

--- one last Q, about "factory outlet" product vs umm? regular , what exactly is the difference? as i have read that there are no major blemishes on even the "outlet" product..? thanks for reading this and all input is greatly appreciated,
Thanks very much,
Stone__Man

First I want to say thank you for your service to our country!

Welcome to the Axiom family as well.

I think your speaker selection is fine. My only concern is if you reallllllly like to crank it up sometimes (music), you may want to consider M50's or 60's, especially for the larger room. However, the 22's are killer speakers. A lot depends on your budget.

The 2500 receiver is a great unit, especially at that price. It will be great for all purposes. You could go with larger mains, and hold off on a sub for a bit. You can use what is called Phantom mode, and use your mains to simulate the sub for starters.

I can't comment much on the sub. I used to own the EP350, which was a great sub. I ordered the Mansfield Beech color, so it was important to me that all my speakers matched in finish, your mileage may very. I do think there is a lot of subs out there that cost less that will give you great results, I'm sure some others will chime in with opinions. I currently own the EP500, oh man.

There is nothing wrong with starting with 5.1. You can always upgrade later to a 5.1 or 7.1 setup with that receiver. There are only a few movies that make use of the rear channels anyway. Most receivers have PLIIx or other surround modes that will simulate the rear speakers, which is cool.

You don't have to use connectors, just use bare wire to your terminals for the best connection. However, there is nothing wrong with using banana plugs if you like.

If you buy a DVD player with DVD outputs, but your TV has HDMI inputs, all you have to do is buy a DVDtoHDMI cable. I bough a 25ft one from http://www.monoprice.com and it works great and the prices are great as well. Some of the newer DVD players have HDMI outputs, so you would just need an HDMI cable. Keep in mind that DVI cables only pass the video signal, whereas HDMI passes both video and audio.

Upconversion on receivers will allow you to combine cables into your receiver, and just have one going to the TV. Most receivers only convert composite/s-video/component into one component output to the tV. Some of the newer receivers will combine to HDMI out. Not sure about the 2500.

If you don't have a lot of equipment to combine (satelite/dvd/tivo/hd box), it might just be easier to connect directly to your tv and not through your receiver.

A lot of us buy from the Factory Outlet, the speakers are identical in every respect. The only difference is that the FO stuff may have minor minor flaws like nicks/scratches. It has been the norm that most people can't find a single thing wrong with them upon inspection.

Good Luck on your choices...Randy

Welcome to the board!

I have a 7 channel Onkyo receiver that I am using in the 5.1 mode. There is nothing wrong with using a 7.1 receiver in a 5.1 setup. You might want to audition a few 7.1 and 5.1 setups to see if you can really discern any differences. In any case, you can always go to 7.1 later on.

I have a SVS subwoofer and have been quite pleased with it. You might go to their website and take a look. They have many options and, IMO, are value priced.

Welcome Stone. Thank you for your service.

Other than the subwoofer, you don't mention budget, which can be a governing factor when it comes to recommendations. Also, the size of the room is a factor, and you've got two, quite different sized, options. But I'll throw out what I can.

The M22s would be fine in the 12x15 room. But, if you end up in the 15x30 room you might want to consider the M60s, or even the M80s, depending on the size of your listening area.

SUBWOOFER: In the smaller room, the EP350, or even a HSU STF-2, VTF-2, or SVS PB10 probably would suffice. In the larger room the VTF-3 is the smallest sub I would recommend. If the budget would allow, for the larger room, I'd like to see you in an EP500 (biased recommendation, since I own and enjoy one), VTF-3 HO Turbo, or one of the larger SVS models (PB12 plus 2, or PB12 Ultra). Those, however, are well past the sub budget you mentioned.

If you're looking for a musical sub, you might consider a sealed sub like the Rocket UFW-12 or the ACI Force, or the really pretty Titan XL. Alas, they are also more than your mentioned budget.

If you must stay within the $500-$700 range, I think the HSU VTF-3 is the best choice.

5.1 vs. 7.1: Either will do fine. Some prefer one, some prefer the other. 7.1 has the advantage of providing ambient sound directly behind you, which fills in things a little better than 5.1, but you won't feel deprived with only 5.1. If you have room behind your seating area, and the budget allows, I think 7.1 is worth it. If your seating is very close to, or smack against, a rear wall, then staying with 5.1 might be a good idea.

Connectors OY! So many choices. If done properly, none of the connections (bare wire, banana plugs, pin plugs, etc.) will have a sonic advantage over the others. Connectors are more convenient than bare wire. I prefer banana plugs, particularly for the connections at the receiver. On many receivers the binding posts are very close together which makes it very hard for my fat fingers to do do the job while I'm twisted like a pretzel behind my equipment. Bananas don't require any unscrewing of the binding posts. You just insert them in the ends of the posts.

I use these dual banana plugs for my connections to my receiver. If you search that web site, you can find less expensive ones that will do the job just fine. When using dual banana plugs you must be sure the space between the plugs is the same as the space between the receiver's red and black binding posts.

On the speaker end of my connections, I use these Radio Shack banana plugs. Neither the dual plugs nor the Radio Shack plugs require any soldering, and are easy to install.

DVD PLAYER: Not to worry. You don't sound "lame." And, yes, many players are available with DVI/HDMI to HDMI connections, and you want to get one of those, if possible. Again, budget would be helpful, as would what you want this player to be able to do. Do you want a "universal" player (i.e., one that can play SACDs and DVD-As), etc.?

With the release of Hi Definition players on the horizon, I wouldn't invest too much in a DVD player at the moment. At $199 plus shipping, a good choice might be the Oppodigital OPDV971H. It's a relatively new player, and hasn't been without it's problems, but the customer service has been INCREDIBLE, and all problems have been addressed quickly. The Oppo will play DVD-As, but not SACDs. I believe they are soon to release a player that will play both. There are many other worthy players out there as well.

I'll leave it to those with more understanding of the matter to fully explain "up-conversion." I always confuse up-conversion with upscaling, and upsey daisy. However, I believe that a receiver with up-conversion enables only one, or at most, two video connections from receiver to HDTV.

FACTORY OUTLET: You got it. No major blemishes on Factory Outlet speakers. Many of us bought our Axioms from the factory outlet. It took me two weeks of hard looking to find the blemishes on my M60s, and I would've never seen them if the light hadn't hit the speakers just right. The bad thing about ordering from the factory outlet is the wait. Have no qualms about ordering from the outlet.

firstly, many thanks: sirquack, ratpack & Ajax. much appreciate the great input and links.

I'll try to answer the few Q's u all had, comment on your remarks, and update where I am at in my purchase hunting process.

--- firstly budget: 2000 to 2500USD tops, that all I think I can squeeze out with WA hehe so

--- I do like to crank up the tunez now and then, I must admit sirquack .

--- sirquack I assume u were not that happy with the ep350? but love the ep500?

--- as far as equipment, not much now but in when back in the good 'ol US of A , I will probably have satti tv w/ tivo like system .... the works so will use the yammy for all connects that I can.

--- ratpack that SVS PC 20-39+ has made my short list of subs. it borders at being above budget price. I guess thats why so far the HSU VTF-3 mk2 is still topping my list.

--- sorry about the differences in room size, I do not know for sure so there is nothing I can do about it. My theory with picking a sub has been to get one that will perform well in the larger space and thus just be able to turn it down if in a smaller space? please correct me If I'm wrong.

--- again personally, I want more accurate bass guitar and bass drum reproduction than i do or care about the lowest rumbles or bangs that shake windows.

--- Big thanks also for your reccomndations Ajax. can I ask how or what the difference and/or sound gain would be in the larger room to have the m60 or m80's vice the m22ti's? althought the room would be twice as long the listening distance would still be 12 to 13 feet. sorry if this sounds lame, but i can't learn if I do not ask

--- would it make sence to position the QS8's [ on stands] behind instead of beside listening position? as it appears that they .... ummm... spread the sound very well.

--- DVD player, I want it to play EVERYthing, files from my pc and such, dvd of the diff types. divx I see some do. Do any play *.avi's? again sorry if it sounds stupid to ya I don't feel comfortable spending more than say 250USD on one, as the new sh!t that is on the horizon is something I will want to put more $$$ into. .... looking at getting that OPPO or the panny S97S... thoughts on those picks?

--- one question/concern I have with the axioms I have read more than once that the mains [m22ti/m60] are on the "bright" and "forward" side on the high end. is this true ? and if so would it remain an issue is used with the HSU VTF-3 MK2 sub? I personally like a ... um ... laid back , mellow top end. [ have had inner ear damage and loss in left ear and TOO high pitch/sounds cause it to vibrate in my ear.] I know that may sound stupid and hard to wrap ones head around but I've had to live with it for many years and it sucks.

--- about mains i wonder if the performace diff between the m22ti and the m60 is worth double the price per pair? after all if I were to spend twice as much as the m22ti cost, I could just get 2 pairs on them[m22ti's] for rears as well and have a 7.1 setup. ughh,,, grrrr this is all so frustating to me at times with my limited knowledge, what with being overseas "auditioning" any setup is out of the question for many reasons, return shipment is not cheap in the least. its just not an option, so all I have to go on is what I read. ok done b!tchin'

--- I am getting excited about having a new setup and where I am at present ,,hehe [ could change after reading another review] ,,is,this is what I am leaning toward getting lemme know what u all think TIA to all

vtf-3 mk2
m22ti
vp150
qs8

lastly I see a lot of mention of m60 and m80 but near nothing on m50 , just wondering why.

no preview or edit so you'll just have to deal with my typOz hehe

There was some talk about banana plugs a while back, and this site was suggested. plugs I got the 20 pack; service was quick, and the plugs are the best quality, better than Radio Shack, IMHO, which I've also used. Good luck!

Another thanks for your service. I just got the M-60's from the outlet, and didn't bother to look for "blemishes". If I didn't see it while unpacking, it didn't bother me enough to go looking further. They sound great. You can't go wrong. Good luck, Guy

I was very happy with my 350. Before I completed my basement/HT area, I had everything upstairs in our living room area which was about 18 x 15 with vaulted ceilings that blended into our kitchen/dining area with a partial wall seperating the rooms. The 350 did very very good.

I moved downstairs to a much bigger room, 30ft x 30ft with 9ft ceillings, with the HT area being incorporated into one of the corners. The 350 also was very satisfying in the larger room. I purchased the 500 through the Factory Outlet, as most of the advice I was hearing was that the 500 and 600 were in a league of their own.

I love my 500 and it rocks my world for movies AND music. However, the 350 is a very good sub also...

I'll have to agree with Randy, I've owned both, while the 350 is a good sub. The 500 is really a major step up, I still think it is one of best investments I've made for my HT.

M80s would not really be a good match with the Yamaha 2500. It doesn't handle 4ohm speakers well at high volume levels. Doesn't really fit into your budget anyway.

I would suggest you to go M60s instead of the M22s with stands. When you include the stand price there isn't that much difference in cost. The M60s will allow you a bit more time to save up for that EP500 because of the better bass than the M22s ... hint hint.

Be patient and get the good stuff via the factory outlet.

M60s and Q8s to start.

Save up for the EP500 and get it FO.

Buy the VP150 FO after that.

Take a bit of time, but you'll be the envy of all those that enter your palace of sound.

again, thanks ALL that have replied

--- KC23 u touched on what I was just gonna ask, if the rx-v2500 [ at 130watts per channel] were enough to properly drive the floorstanders[m60s or m80s]. As I don't want it[power] to be "just enough", but enough power to get the best response from the speaker drivers. So I think u have helped me make to move up to the m60ti towers

--- back to the sub which is still my biggest question mark. the HSU vtf-3 mk2 i can get from their site at 752USD out the door, and with the extra expense of the m60's vice the m22's. not sure I can swing the cost of the ep500 as its a good 400USD more than the HSU sub. I find it sort of odd that i haven't seen any "shootouts" or similar regarding the ep500 and the HSU ? its alwasy the HSU vs the SVS. actually I don't know that its fair to even compare subs of that large a cost difference. but that what I would really like to see. I've not seen a bad word about the HSU I have the most interest in[vtf-3 mk2], and can't really find much in reviewing the ep500 in a vs, or by itself even. I have seen the ep600 but thats a diff creature hehe not to mention price . and if i were to consider the ep500, I'd have to look at the Hsu VTF-3 HO and the SVS PB12-Ultra that are subs in a compareable price bracket. GRRR its a tough row to hoe, all these choices to make with limited knowledge, except for the input from good folks such as those that have helped me out here. I TRULY do VERY MUCH appreciate any and all input. thanks guys for all the wonderful input and patience with a "n00b", such as me.

--- a bit more sub, sorry
I see some mention the space size and the larger ep500 doing better in it than the smaller ep350. so is it safe to assume that its better to get a bigger sub "even if" one has a smaller listening space? simply adjusting down the volume of the sub to blend with the mains.

--- now, crossover, the yammy rx-v2500 to the best of my knowledge only uses ONE across the board, unfortunatly. is that a problem if I get the m60's with the rest of what I am thinking of getting? and would 100 vice 80 take some of the work load off the yammy and put more on the sub amp? and is that a good thing?

--- again all, sorry if my questions and statements sound lame, afterall I am just a n00b , but hungry for knowledge and wanting to get the best "bang for my buck". TIA Peace & God Bless America AND Canada as well

I think you will be good to go if you choose the HSU or the SVS and the M60's. If you cross at 80 and set the speakers to small that will take the work off the yammy.
And I believe the v2500 can be crossed at 80. You can check the manual here LINK

HomeDad thx for the link

--- here is what I found from manual:
Bass cross over's are: 40,60,80,90,100,110,120,160,200 Hz respectfully. what I did NOT see was if it would set seperate crossovers for the diff. speakers or one # for all of them. anyway. thanks for the info m8

--- ne1 else? comments? suggestions? so as of this moment hehe here is what i am looking at going with,
m60 mains
vp150 center
qs8 surrounds
vtf-3 mk2 sub
---------------
please give me opinion on my choices as they are at this time. Don't worry I wont be offended in the least if you do not like my choices. as it stands i'm at roughly 2700$, would u get what i have chosen or go with different speakers all together?

--- again it may sound stupid, but being at the reciever is a 7.1 , if running 5.1 can I send the unused [rear speaker] power to , say the mains? or is that not an option? again I appreciate any and all input, TIA Peace

--- those that use the qs8 surrounds, did u buy the stands for them? wall mount them? or what? as i have seen somewhere that it is better to have them[surrounds/rears] at about a 6 ft height. where as the qs8 stands are roughly ear level when seated.

Stone, trust me, there has been much controversy regarding the Axiom 500 and 600 and the SVS Ultra. The HSU VTF-3 HO Turbo has now been thrown into the mix as well. And, yes, those subs are more of an even match. If you could afford any of those over the VTF-3 MKII, I would recommend going in that direction. But, if you can't, you needn't worry about the HSU VTF-3. It is an excellent product and will do the job just fine.

After a quick look at the Yamaha manual, I believe those crossover choices are "global." That means that whatever crossover point you chose is where ALL the speakers are crossed. I would start with the 80 Hz setting. Feel free to experiment with other settings if you wish, but that setting will work fine with all the Axiom speakers. The higher you move the setting (100, 120, etc.), the greater the risk of the bass being locatable (i.e. sounding like it's coming from the subwoofer, rather than blending with the speakers.

I think your choices are just fine. GO FOR IT!

Not an option to send the "unused power" from the rear speaker amplifiers to the mains. Think of your receiver's amplifier section as 7 distinct individual little amplifiers.

Optimally, the QS8s are placed on the side walls slightly behind the listening area and between 1 to 6 feet above your ears. The Axiom stands are meant as a compromise for those who, for any reason, absolutely cannot mount them on the walls, or suspend them from the ceiling. Using them is less than ideal, but not unsatisfactory.

thx "again" Ajax for your input

--- I value everyones thoughts, and as such I am gonna axe the qs8 stands from my order, thus freeing up 252USD to add to a sub purchase. [I know my way around a woodshop anyhow] so if need be I can draw up and built 2 nice hardwood stands, I'm sure, for @ 50 USD.

--- so, the bad part for me is,now it makes my sub decision all the more complicated , as i can now budget roughly 1000USD toward the sub. so... I'd love to get input on what u all think would be the best:

- Axiom ep500
- HSU VTF-3 HO
- HSU VTF-3 MKII
- Rocket UFW-12
- SVS PB12+
- SVS 20-39 pc+

any in that range that I have ommited from this short list? please feel free to let me know, thx

-** I MUST add that I care much more about tight accurate musical reproduction of instrument notes then I do loud, window rattling, subsonic growls. I'm far removed from the hipitty hop young music mentality. I'll take QUALITY sub sounds over Quanity sub sounds ANY day. hope this helps in aiding my old silly self. lol Peace

would it make sense to ask for this sub input in a new topic or poll maybe?

- allmost forgot , I'd assume that the m60's are shielded? so i can have them by TV with no ill effects?
thanks again for all the words of wisdom guys, appreciate it all

You're very welcome.

Just my opinion, but I think the UFW-12 would be the most musical. BUT, the Axiom EP500 would be VERY close in musicality, AND, since it reaches a bit lower in the frequency spectrum, it would be better for HT. I think it would provide the best of both worlds (again, I'm biased because I own one, and love it). No offense meant to all you HSU/SVS owners.

just your opinion? hehe brother that is EXACTLY what I am asking of everyone. no need to apologize. I appreciate the fact that you gave a bit of explaination to your picks as well man. thx

so thats 1 vote - ep500

NEXT! step right up , don't be shy . . .

Please help me out with your picks of a sub everyone, I DO appreciate it, & value everyones opinion.

TIA Peace

EP500 with no regrets!

Although I have never heard the HSU or SVS, I would have to go with the EP500 because I know it Rocks

EP 500 hands down.

I've seen lots of comparisons between subs of similar stature, such as the SVS PB-12 Ultra(closest competetor to the EP500 i think) and mostly the EP500 reigns king.

The PB-12 and EP500 are close in movies, but the EP500 should pull away in music. The other closest competetor I think would be the HSU VTF-3 HO. That is a really new product, so not much is known on how well it performs.

And, the EP500 is the only one of those subs (I believe) that has a DSP chip in it which will not lot the sub be overdriven...ever. Digital technology in your sub!

So...go for the EP500. :-) You will not be dissapointed.