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Re: Things that make you go hmmmmm....
#134283 04/05/06 07:33 PM
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In reply to:

I have a distinct feeling that it would be far too easy to distinguish btw. the M22+EP500 and either the M60 or M80 sans sub -- unless you restricted your test material to recordings that didn't dip below the rated ranges of the towers.




Good point. That would have to be the limiting factor. That being said, most music does not fall below 27.5 Hz (low A) and rarely dips below 30Hz (low B). Specific music would have to be chose to meet that criteria but it would be an intersting test.

Re: Things that make you go hmmmmm....
#134284 04/05/06 09:12 PM
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In reply to:

although they share the same tonal characteristics, there's still a difference in detail and fullness of sound. It doesn't seem like it's just an issue with bass.




That is where I have the problem. To me that means that the M22s are not designed properly, and there were compromises. I often find the description of "fullness of sound" to be something in the lower frequencies. It has been stated as a trait of the M22s to have "less fullness" and for those who are looking for bookshelves only to go with the M3s which seem to stand alone quite well.

Assuming that the floor standers are portraying the intended sound properly, and by stating that there is a difference in detail, is not acceptable to the person who is looking for the "best sound" in a bookshelf due to space constraints not allowing a floor stander.

If on the other hand, this was just a user's perception based on "feelings" or pre-conceived notions biasing their opinions, I can understand. I fall pray to that all too often on many other matters. I'm a pretty emotional kind of guy . We're only human after all. If not a biased opinion, then I think it is back to the drawing board for the bookshelves. Unless I am incorrect, I thought that the bass section of the floor standers are separate chambers. Is this not the case? Do they use the same chamber for the woofers as the midrange? Perhaps this would explain a difference in sound where the woofers may be interacting with the midrange? Not to over-simplify things but a floor stander with a separate chamber for the woofers is like a satellite speaker with a passive sub.

The other issue is finding the balance between subwoofer and satellite settings/levels and whether or not their outputs have a linear response that you would get with a floor stander (assumption).

The big HOWEVER comes in the crossover frequncies. Perhaps the frequencies handled by the woofers in the floor standers extend up to the midrange where the 5.25" are not as refined. The mid range would then be allowed to function in a more limited frequency range where it performs better. Likely this is the reason for the M3 versus the M22. So the question then becomes, at what frequency must the M22 be crossed over for it to function equal to the floor stander?

I am guessing it is not at all as simple as this and likely only Ian could answer.

Re: Things that make you go hmmmmm....
#134285 04/06/06 07:58 PM
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Hi,

Actually, Peter, the M22 + EP500 vs. the M80s with or without the EP500 (I have both on an A/B switcher set up most of the time) are astonishingly close when A/B'd in my average (sort of small) living room (2200 cu. ft.). In my room, if I run the M80s full-range "Large" with the EP500, there is too much bass, so I set the 80s to "Small" crossiing over at 80 Hz. At those settings, the transition to the EP500 is seamless.

They are so close that often I forget which I'm listening to (the switcher is marked "A" and "B"), unless I get up and check the speakers.
The differences begin to emerge when I really crank up the sound to levels louder than I normally ever listen at. There is a kind of "ease" to the M80s at these levels, no sense of strain, and an upper bass "authority" that I miss with the M22s.
Then again, I never listen to the M22s and EP500 at such levels (I'm talking of 100+ dB SPL peaks at my listening area). Set to peaks 3 dB less than that, the M22s and EP500 are simply thrilling.

Just to pick an example, I'd put them up against the ludicrously overpriced Wilson Watt Puppies and a sub anytime in a blind test administered by a disinterested third party and I'd be highly interested in the outcome. . .


Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert (Retired)
Re: Things that make you go hmmmmm....
#134286 04/06/06 09:55 PM
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M22 and EP 500 is somewhat an unusual combination. ER500 is $1,200 and M22 is $400, $1600 together. It's $300 more expensive than a pair of M80s and almost twice as expensive as a couple of $M60s. So, why to pay more for something that sounds just the same?

A more realistic, 'bookshelf' and less expensive approach would be a couple of M22 paired with a good but not overly expensive sub, like Onix x-sub - $200. Altogether it's $600.

Now, the question is would that combination sound the same as a couple of M80 or M60? At not overly high SPL of course.

Re: Things that make you go hmmmmm....
#134287 04/07/06 01:13 AM
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I was measuring the level at which I sometimes reach listening to certain well engineered tracks... and they easily approach and surpass 100db (RS analog meter, A weighted, slow), and with my equipment (see sig), it is extremely clean and powerful, with the EP500 supporting on the ultra- low end. I havent heard the M22 / EP500 combo, but if you ever intend to really crank it and expect clean, effortless reproduction... consider an M60 / M80. My room is 12 X 15, with the left side open in the listening postion. I'd consider the room mostly reflective.


Epic 80 / SVS PB13 Ultra
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Sammy 55" LED
Re: Things that make you go hmmmmm....
#134288 04/07/06 01:27 AM
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One of the reviews which got me to make the jump and buy Axiom speakers without ever having heard them, was in "Enjoy the Music" which reviewed the fabulous Axiom M3Ti (then $275 a pair) with a $1400 Klipsch LF-10 subwoofer. A quick, musical sub which blends well with a good bookshelf gets you what amounts to a full range speaker with all the virtues of a bookshelf - great soundstage and imaging.

Here's the review from 2002:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0402/axiommillennia.htm

Of course, the Enjoy the Music reviewer, Colin Flood, has to be forgiven for praising the match up of the Axiom M3Tis and Antique Sound Labs tube amps, poor guy doesn't realize that tube amps are just distortion generators.

Last edited by 2x6spds; 04/07/06 01:33 AM.

Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Things that make you go hmmmmm....
#134289 04/07/06 02:31 AM
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Denial is a scary thing to behold. Let me try to state this as clearly as I can. I'll even put it on a separate line.

The reason tube amps sound different from solid state amps is due almost entirely to harmonic distortion. To deny this is to reveal your ignorance on the subject.

There are plenty of things you can read to educate yourself on the subject, but this wikipedia article is a good place to start.

Re: Things that make you go hmmmmm....
#134290 04/07/06 04:16 AM
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Anyway, some years later, I picked up an Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15DT integrated SET amp, and stumbled on a Klipsch LF10 subwoofer from ubid back when there were great buys to be had there, and of course hooked up my Axiom M3Tis. I unpacked an Ah! Njoe Tjoeb tube output CD Player (with upsampler) and I had to agree with Colin Flood, the M3s blended perfectly with the LF-10. That combination was one of the best, most musical systems I've ever heard.


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Things that make you go hmmmmm....
#134291 04/08/06 04:04 PM
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I'd like to add another "Hurrah" to the M3 Appreciation Thread!!

HURRAH!! Great little speakers!!

My final goal is to put my M3s in a second, more intimate, listening room;.....With Tubes!!

And religate my M50s to strictly Home Theater usage where they do a reasonably credible job in my acoustically challenged Main listening room.

M3TiSEs are indeed audio gems!

Re: Things that make you go hmmmmm....
#134292 04/17/06 07:21 PM
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In reply to:


M22 and EP 500 is somewhat an unusual combination. ER500 is $1,200 and M22 is $400, $1600 together. It's $300 more expensive than a pair of M80s and almost twice as expensive as a couple of $M60s. So, why to pay more for something that sounds just the same?




I don't think the M80's can reproduce low frequencies alone with the same authority as the EP500 paired with the M22s. That is a good reason why. I suspect the extra tweeter on the M80s is what gives the extra edge during high SPL use of the M80s over M22s. Tweeters typically can not handle the same power as mids and woofers.

For large SPL applications there is no doubt that the M80's with dual tweeters would be the way to go. The extra tweeter would provide that "effortlessness". For those that don't like having a big box in the room and don't need high SPL, the M60's would be ideal. If you can not have a floor stander but can hide a sub somewhere, the M22 with an EP350 or EP500 would be best. If you can't have a sub or floorstanders, the M3. If you have even less space then the M2 or start looking at the Architectural series. There is a speaker setup for all applications.

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