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#135888 - 04/17/06 05:51 PM 235:1 screen size input
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3822
Loc: Up yonder
I have absolutely no experience with projectors and screens, so Iíve been sorta winging it as I go. Iím now considering going with a 2.35:1 screen size for my never ending HT room project. Iíve done some reading at AVS, but still a little confused (again). I seam to recall that someone, or maybe more than one of you axiomites has this set up. Guess I should pay closer attention.

First off, should I go with this ratio or stick with 16.9? I own about 400 DVDís and rent a couple each week. I usually just buy the good ones that come out and I think I might want to watch again some day. When I buy them, I always try to get wide screen, but heck if I know if they are anamorphic 2.35 or not. I donít know enough about this to know what I donít knowÖÖFrom what Iíve read, 2.35 is the way to go for picture quality, but it doesnít come without some trade offs.

My front wall is 12í wide and weíll be sitting about 12í from it. I was going to try painting a sheet of 3/4 MDF with a version of the Mississippi mud that Iíve got (already have the paints). I figured what the hell, itís cheap and supposed to work, so why not give it a try?? Plus, this way I can just screw the sheet to wall and yank it off and re-do it if needed.

Iíve already got the projector (panny 900 au) and the DVD player (panny 97s).

Other than DVDís, the only thing we watch is a little satellite in standard definition. No hope for HD in my area for at least one year as they need to shoot up another satellite.

What would be Ďrightí size screen for this room under the conditions listed above? Iíd like to keep it under 8í wide for aesthetic and speaker positioning reasons (need a couple feet to each side). By my figuring, I could make the screen 40Ē X 92Ē. That would leave me a few inches around the sheet of MDF to paint black boarders and trim it out? Would this be big enough for that wow factor?

Iím not too excited about needing black curtains on the front wall for those times when 2.35 isnít possible. Plus, if the screen height is 40Ē with 2.35, then it would be smaller with 16.9 and 4.3 wouldnít it? I dunno, but that might be way to small.

What type / brand of lense should I get, if 2.35 is the way to go?

Hell, any input at all would be appreciated at this point.

_________________________


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#135889 - 04/17/06 07:09 PM Re: 235:1 screen size input
skyhawk669 Offline
devotee

Registered: 01/23/06
Posts: 436
Loc: Austin, TX
I'll let Randy our 2.35 expert answer most of your questions . But what I can tell you is that the image height should be constant whether you are projecting 2.35, 1.78 (16:9) or 1.33 (4:3). All you would need to do is close or open the curtains in function of the format.

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#135890 - 04/18/06 12:26 AM Re: 235:1 screen size input
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13311
Loc: Iowa
Oh man, I'll try to help. I would not call myself the 2.35 genius, but I do my best to make sure I understand.

It is very confusing and you want to make sure you figure everything right or it won't work. You'll want to make sure you figure your throw distance, screen size, etc.. correctly up front, or once you install everything it may not work when you add the anamorphic lens into the equation.

The nice thing about constant height 2.35 setups, like Skyhawk mentions, is that the height stays the same. 2.35 movies will fill the entire screen with no bars, 1.85 to 2.35 ratio DVD's will have black bars on the sides, HD material (1.78) will also have black bars on the sides, and standard 4:3 broadcasts will have the widest black bars on the sides.

Currently, when I watch say 1.85ratio DVD's, which is close to 16:9 I have the black bars on the sides and I am getting used to them, after a short time you really forget about them, just like bars on the top/bottom. However, at some point I may add black curtains to draw in for a better effect.

A 16:9 screen would require the least fiddling around, and if you don't mind a narrow black bar on top/bottom, that might be the best bet. You could always figure out a way to mask the top and bottom. Or some people adjust the projector so the top OR bottom black bar is off the screen, hidden by the masking border, and then just drop down a black velvet border to cover the top bar. There are so many options.

I know I'm rambling, and the wife is yelling at me to come to bed. ha ha

One thing is that you have to have something that will do the initial scaling or vertical stretch. The Panny S97S won't do it, I have one of them. The 900AU, I"m not sure, I know the new Sanyo Z4 will achieve this needed scaling. The other options, are a Home Theater PC, which I just got done building, or an expensive scaler like DVDO.

Basically how it works is when you watch a 2.35 movie on a 16:9 projector, you will have the normal black bars on top/bottom. Those black bars account for about 33% in lost screen realstate. Now your screen you build is 2.35 ratio, so at first you see the black bars on top/bottom as usual ,and the blank space on the sides, because your native 16:9 projector can't fill the 2.35 screen width, YET.

So, you first scale the image by vertically stretching it to reclaim those lost pixels on top and bottom. This also helps increase the brightness by about 20% because your using more of the panel for the image. Now everyone in the movie looks skinny, don't fear, now you introduce the anamorphic lens which stretches the image back out to fill the entire 2.35 screen and making the images normal looking. Confused yet?

Screen size, hmmm there is so much to think about here also. Ok so you say you are thinking about a 92" wide screen?

If you go with a 16:9 screen, then you would have the following: about 51.6" x 92" which is pretty big for 1.78 and 1.85 material. If you watched a 2.35 movie on this screen, it would be 39" high (92/2.35). 51.6" - 39" = 12.6" difference. Divide that by 2, and that is how thick the black bars would be on 2.35 material, about 6" each. Really it is about the same as when you watch a 1.85 movie on a standard 4:3 television.

I know I keep rambling, and not making any sense, it is hard for me to put this stuff in words.

Another thing to keep in mind is during a 1.85 DVD movie, you want to be about 1.3 0- 1.5 times the screen width back. So if we assume you build a 92" wide screen, that would be about 10 - 11.5ft back from the screen minimum. For 2.35 movies you want to be farther back as your eyes have to move from side to side further.

You will also want to make sure that your Panasonic will be able to achieve a 16: 9 image from whatever throw distance your planning. If you build the 2.35 screen, the projector will produce an approx. 16x9 image of 39" x 69" so your black side bars will be about 11.5" wide on each side.

Here is the calculator for your projector, it appears between 8' and 16' you can get that screen size for 16:9 images, you just don't want to have you zoom maxed out to achieve it...

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Panasonic_Home-PT-AE900U-projection-calculator-pro.htm

Its late, and I'm sorry for rambling, I've had a few cold ones and know I haven't answered any of your questions, and probably confused you more.

Heck, just go get a sheet of 4ft x 8ft Parkland Durotherm Lite panels from your local home improvement store, trim it to 16:9, hang and enjoy, no painting required. Heck, I have a gallon of MMud in my closet never opened I should have sent you. good night, burp....

PS: most DVD's are either 1.85 or 2.35, about 50% in my collection, if you read the back.




_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#135891 - 04/18/06 01:51 AM Re: 235:1 screen size input
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8135
Loc: Tacoma
In reply to:

you want to make sure you figure everything right or it won't work




That's it. I'm out.

Randy, thank goodness you're around to help with this stuff.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#135892 - 04/18/06 12:39 PM Re: 235:1 screen size input
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
Ok, so if my screen is 84" wide, then at 2.35:1 my height will be about 35.75". This then becomes the height for all picture formats, correct? In this case that means my 16:9 will be 63.5" wide at that height. SO, what ever projector I purchase in the future must be able to do 63.5"x35.75" (16:9) at what ever distance the projector is mounted from the screen.

Currently I have the cables run at about 14 to 14.5 feet back from the screen (this is not yet cast in stone). Seating distance is planned for about about 10.5' back.

If I plan on the Z4, provided I read the Projector Central info correctly, my projector should be mounted at 14.8' from the screen. Is that correct?


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#135893 - 04/18/06 12:40 PM Re: 235:1 screen size input
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3822
Loc: Up yonder
Iíll consider the light panels. I guese Iím just more comfortable working with wood/MDF and like the idea of painting black boarders and trimming it out with hardwood.

My throw distance will be right at 12í.

This was posted at AVS. It appears the 900 au will perform the vertical stretch.


ďMy HD950 arrived! I had a short time over the weekend with it and here are a few quick comments.

I watched the latest Harry Potter movie which is 2.35. I thought the picture was noticably sharper over HDMI and for my AE900 the 720p setting was the best. 1080i looked a bit softer to me. It also appeared brighter using HDMI over component. I didn't see any artifacts as Mark mentioned and the black levels looked good to me. Maybe the pj helped out in that regard.

Now the good part. The "Screen Fit" setting does the vertical stretch over HDMI in 720p. It does the stretch over component in 480i. Now this is weird - 480p over component didn't fill the 16x9 screen width. I don't know why but it looked like a 4x3 image of a letterboxed scope image centered in the 16x9 screen. I don't know if it was a pj sync thing or it didn't like the way I changed modes on it. It did do the stretch though with "Screen Fit" though. Strange...

So in the end it looks like the EZ-View "Screen Fit" stretches the image vertically to fill the panel in just about any mode. Now all I need is an anamorphic lens!

Mark,
The upconvert settings are under Menu=>Display Setup. When you choose HDMI as the output the next line lets you select the upconvert (720p or 1080i). See page 64-65 of the manual.Ē



_________________________


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#135894 - 04/18/06 01:34 PM Re: 235:1 screen size input
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6275
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
In past posts, this link has been helpful. It is from the internet movie data base (imdb) and summarizes how many movies (DVDs) there are in each aspect ratio. As you can see, most are in full screen, followed by 1.85 to 1, followed by 2.35 to 1. I'm in the same boat you are - about to get a screen in the next month - and I'm going for 1.78 to 1 (aka 16:9) because that's what HDTV is, and it is so close to 1.85 to 1. I'll just suffer a little for the Harry Potters, LOTR, and SW that are in 2.35 to 1...

link
_________________________
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains.

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#135895 - 04/18/06 11:46 PM Re: 235:1 screen size input
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13311
Loc: Iowa
Yes Bruce, your correct on your measurments. Another thing I did is that I tried to plan my projector location back at a distance where the Zoom setting on the lens was near the minimum ammount. Normally, your going to get better results if your not zoomed to the max to achieve that size screen.

Yes Bruce, 14.8 is correct. Based on your screen size, you could place the projector anywhere from about 7.4ft upto 14.6ft or so Throw distance. So you would be placing the projector at the very MAXIMUM throw and you would have to leave the ZOOM at a minimum to fill the screen. Sometimes it is better to place the projector at a location so you have a little more flexibility and can adjust the zoom if needed.

Also, keep in mind, there are two types of anamorphic lenses out there, horizontal stretch or vertical squeeze. The horizontal stretch is nice if you want a bigger result from a shorter throw distance. It takes the image that you have previously stretched vertically to fill the black bars, and stretches it out horizontally to fill the 2.35 screen. The vertical designs actually squeeze the stretched image down to created the 2.35 image. Vertical lenses are normally used by people that have a very very long throw projector, say 18ft or so, and have a very large 16:9 image to start. If you have a short throw projector, I'm not sure a vertical lens would be the answer, as your end result would be a very small 2.35 screen.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that the longer throw you can get the better for either design. The closer you are to the screen, the more issues like "pincushion" will result. Pincussion looks like the top/bottom of the screen will have a slight bowing effect. Usually, this can be easily masked, and only occurs during 2.35 movies.

--________--

_--------------_

I tell you though, My Z2 is a little over 13ft back from my screen. My Prismasonic H600M lens is mounted as close to my Z2's lens as possible, still allowing me to get to the adjustments. The Z4 is a better design. Anyway, my screen is 51" x 120" wide and it works great.

I think Panamorph also just came out with a Horizontal stretch lens to compete with Prismasonic. I waited until there was a Power Buy on AVS before I got my Prismasonic 600.

I guess what a person needs to do, is sit down and figure out both scenarios, just going with a 16:9 screen, or a 2.35 screen. Keep in mind the 2.35 screen won't be as tall. You might find it better to build a large 16:9 screen, and still get a nice sized 2.35 image with black bars.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#135896 - 04/18/06 11:50 PM Re: 235:1 screen size input
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13311
Loc: Iowa
MDrew,

I also felt my best result when I had a S97S, was using 720p as well, which is the native resolution of the Z2. However, the dvd player is still scaling the image to give you the result. With my new HTPC, I just set my video card resolution to exactly 1280 x 720 for a 1:1 pixel mapping ratio. The picture blows away my S97S, in my opinion.


_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#135897 - 04/19/06 10:37 AM Re: 235:1 screen size input
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3822
Loc: Up yonder
I donít envision myself building a HTPC, so Iím stuck with the DVD player / projector. Actually, I do not have the 97s in my possession. My dealer is waiting for his distributor to get some more in (which is any day). I can cancel that order and get a different DVD player if you think thereís a better one out there.

I looked at my room a little closer last night and penciled a box on the wall. I am definitely limited to a screen 96Ē in width. With my soffets and speakers, I need 2í to either side of the screen. But, that 96Ē box looked pretty damn big to me 12í away from it. I think Iím just going to paint the whole sheet with MM and hang it on the wall, play with the image until I get it where I want it, then mask and paint black boarders on the sheet to fit the image size I end up with.

Iím leaning toward the vertical stretch and horizontal lense. I think thatís the best rout. Any other lenses besides the one you bought worth looking at? Where can I buy them and how much do they run??

Thanks for the help Randy.

_________________________


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