 Re: Who Says Vinyl Is Dead
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,488
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,488 |
Larry, I always appreciate your wisdom and God knows I have better things to do than be argumentative about recorded music formats. I'm not going to write an essay on why I think vinyl has outlived its usefulness; such an exercise would be fruitless and probably inflammatory.
But your observation about "warmth" piqued my curiosity. When was the last time you heard a LIVE progressive/hard electric rock band and marveled at the "warmth" of the guitars?
I'm not saying it's not pleasant, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I am still unable to throw away dozens of my LP's (although I rarely listen to them). I'm just suggesting that what some people like and enjoy about the Vinyl experience is attributable to mutations along the path rather than faithful reproduction of the source.
I'm no engineer, and I'm sure it's come up before. IS there a plausible technical explanation as to how/why vinyl might be better able to capture the live performance than digital media?
bibere usque ad hilaritatem
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Re: Who Says Vinyl Is Dead
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 845
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 845 |
Hello, Tom
I think for one to try to describe what something sounds like, is almost as hard as describing what a color looks like.....to a blind person.
Using logic, if cd digital sound was equal to the original analog source material, then there would be no need for all the re-masters, sacd, and other such attempts at improving the sound.....they would already have been the best possible, you cannot improve on the source.
Larry
LIFE: "Choices, balance, and timing"
(Larryism)
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Re: Who Says Vinyl Is Dead
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,458
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,458 |
Quote:
Using logic, if cd digital sound was equal to the original analog source material, then there would be no need for all the re-masters, sacd, and other such attempts at improving the sound.....they would already have been the best possible, you cannot improve on the source.
Actually, Larry, you're mixing apples and oranges.
If a CD is being remastered, it's because the mix and final stages of prep before going out to disc need improving. The disc being delivered is technically the same.
In other words, your statement is arguing against you in that your saying it's the people behind the recording that are the weak link, not the delivery medium itself (the CD).
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
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Re: Who Says Vinyl Is Dead
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 845
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 845 |
Mark,
I can't agree with you this time.
The mastering process IS a big part of the problem......but
no matter how you slice your apples and oranges, there are not enough 1's and 0's to capture ALL of the source material.
This was by design..to allow cds, and their players to market.....cheaper, and faster.
Larry
LIFE: "Choices, balance, and timing"
(Larryism)
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Re: Who Says Vinyl Is Dead
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,488
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,488 |
Fascinating Quote:
there are not enough 1's and 0's to capture ALL of the source material
Okay, now we're getting somewhere!
I'm not trying to belabor this or make it unpleasant, I really just do want to come to a fuller understanding of the various points of view.
Do you think it is ALL digital media that is deficient, or just the CD delivery mechanism? That is, if there is a high enough resolution or sampling rate (or whatever voodoo is applicable), is there a digital methodology that could capture and deliver a live performance as well as, I don't know, Tape at a high rate? Is Tape optimal for masters?
I don't necessarily disagree that digital recordings could be inferior to analog ones, but I don't fully understand the science of either one.
We could agree - I think - that second-generations of the original recording are likely to differ in an analog world. While it may be technically possible to replicate (to my ears, for sure) the master tape, the equipment and process required is not economically viable for mass market. With digital mastering and distribution, the consumer gets an exact replica.
So, if we take economics out of it for the moment, I guess the issues are twofold:
1. Is there an optimal ORIGINAL recording method (digital, tape, ??). In what cases would one be technically superior to the other and why? I mean, in what cases is converting the sound at the microphone into electrical impulses (for tape) or mechanical patterns (in vinyl) "better" than converting it to 1's and 0's?
2. Is there a technical reason why an analog master can be more faithfully transferred to an analog medium (vinyl, high speed tape, etc) than to a digital medium (like - but not necessarily limited to - CD)?
Again, to Larry especially, I'm not trying to quarrel or engender any negative vibe, I'm just really interested in discussing this issue with smart, civilized people.
bibere usque ad hilaritatem
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Re: Who Says Vinyl Is Dead
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 845
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 845 |
Tom,
DDD recordings can sound fantastic....(i.e. CASH, the man comes around).
I don't know if more recent recording equipment has solved the issue, or not.
I hope so, I don't think analog tape recorders are used much in studios anymore.
LIFE: "Choices, balance, and timing"
(Larryism)
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Re: Who Says Vinyl Is Dead
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,458
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,458 |
Quote:
I'm just really interested in discussing this issue with smart, civilized people.
I guess I know when I'm not wanted! 
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
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Re: Who Says Vinyl Is Dead
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,602
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,602 |
Quote:
BrenR, if you are talking about me jumping on the bandwagon you are mistaken.
Nope, I meant the media zombie that wrote the article. Should have been clearer.
Bren R.
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Re: Who Says Vinyl Is Dead
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,602
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,602 |
Quote:
there are not enough 1's and 0's to capture ALL of the source material.
But there are enough physical differences in the grooves of an LP to be more accurate? Technically, an analog recording does the same thing as a digital one, only without being tied to a standardized clock.
All this, including the stylus having to ride in the track, fighting centifugal forces outward, gravity & inertia as it bounces in the track (both vertically and horizontally - I assume if we're talking fidelity, we're talking at least stereo discs!), wow, flutter, pressing anomalies, dirt, dust, stylus wear, groove swish, and a handful of other issues.
I will say if you had a record of infinite size spinning at an infinite number of revolutions per minute in a "physics vacuum" that, yes, an LP could come a lot closer than a compact disc to the original source material. But to be honest, you're asking a whole lot of a 30cm platter of 180gram/m^2 vinyl and a little piece of wire with a diamond chunk on it.
Bren R.
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Re: Who Says Vinyl Is Dead
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,488
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,488 |
Bren was absent on "Word Mincing" day in language arts.
You know, that all makes pretty good sense to me.
I'm suddenly afraid.
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