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#144309 - 07/27/06 05:40 PM If you had a choice between...
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
EDIT: added Surround speakers.

I am in a pretty big dillema. The more I research Axiom Audio the more I am finding my budget increasing and I am wanting the bigger and better speakers.

For a medium sized room (15x15 lets say). Which of the following would you choose? Money is kind of an issue, but not really. I could choose any of the 3 options.

These are for the front 3 channels and sub only. I already know what I am getting for surround sound. (these are all Canadian prices BTW).

I will be using these for probably 60% movies, 40% DVD 5.1 concerts/music.

Option 1:

2 x M22 = $530 CAD
2 Stands = $130 CAD (not from Axiom)
1 x VP150 = $465 CAD
2 x QS4 = $490 CAD
2 FMS QS Stands = $330 CAD
SUB - SVS PB10 = $600 CAD (includes shipping)
Total: $2545 CAD

Option 2:

2 x M50 = $860 CAD
1 x VP150 = $465 CAD
SUB SVS PB10 = $600 CAD
2 x QS4 = $490 CAD
2 x FMS QS Stands = $330 CAD
TOTAL: $2745 CAD

Option 3 (no sub until I save up for it):

2 x M60 = $1120 CAD
1 x VP150 = $465 CAD
2 x QS8 = $620 CAD
2 x FMS QS Stands = $330 CAD
TOTAL = $2553 CAD

I should have NEVER come to these forums, ARGH! Am I going crazy?

-Robb.


Edited by Hutzal (07/27/06 06:11 PM)
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#144310 - 07/27/06 05:49 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
Haoleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 1488
Loc: Maine
Option 1 myself.
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Haoleb's Audio/DIY Website

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#144311 - 07/27/06 06:03 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Haoleb]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Option 1 is what I had originally planned until I started slacking off at work doing searches on these forums all day!

"should i get the M60...no...the M50....mabey the M60...Mabey i'll stick with the M22s...but then i might want to upgrade later..."

Its a never ending thought pattern.
_________________________
Producer | Composer
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#144312 - 07/27/06 06:04 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Haoleb]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17789
Loc: NoVA
No surrounds?

I'd modify option one to include a pair of QS4s and change the center to a VP100.
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#144313 - 07/27/06 06:12 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Ken.C]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Quote:

No surrounds?

I'd modify option one to include a pair of QS4s and change the center to a VP100.




I just added surrounds to all the packages. Why not a VP150? I don't want to regret not getting a killer centre channel later on when there are only 2 options and the Centre is a pretty important piece.
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#144314 - 07/27/06 07:11 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17789
Loc: NoVA
The VP100 is pretty good in and of itself, and in a room that size, the 150 would approach overkill. Also, I generally want to spend more on the mains than the center, just 'cause that's the way I am.
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I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#144315 - 07/27/06 07:28 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
3.

Get the best mains you can. QS8s are a must!

You'd be surprised how much bass is in the floorstanders. My son runs a 5.0 system while saving for a sub (like the EP500).

I like the floorstanders for music without the sub.

You have to understand that I don't think "overkill" is possible. I don't like "adequate" either!

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#144316 - 07/27/06 07:33 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
I like option 3, save for the sub and get the best Axiom has to offer, that way you can avoid upgraditis.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#144317 - 07/27/06 08:17 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5431
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Given that you want to avoid upgradeitis (always a wise decision ) I would go with 3b :


2 x M60 = $1120 CAD
2 x QS8 = $620 CAD
SUB SVS PB10 = $600 CAD
Hang the QS8s on the wall for now, buy stands and center later.
TOTAL = $2340 CAD, 2670 if you can't hang on the walls.

Here's my thinking :

- no matter how good the bass on mains is, a good sub makes a HUGE difference in movie enjoyment

- in a 15x15 room you are not going to have a huge seating area so you can probably live without the "anchoring" effect of a center channel for a while

- you are totally future-proofed if/when you get a larger room in the future (that's the main downside with a smaller system, by the way)

- you have great floorstanding mains for stereo music

- you have QS8s

I am running the FMS-QS stands with QS8s and am very happy with them, but if I had side walls in my listening room I would be hanging 'em on the wall instead. You can hang QS surrounds pretty much anywhere (mine weren't even at the same height) and they still work well.

EDIT -- two other points :

1. Remember that you get a 5% discount off the price when you buy any 5 speakers, or in fact any 5 "things". If you go with option 3b that is only 4 "things" so buy a cable or something to get up to 5.

2. Bigger speakers are not automatically better, although they are generally "better in a bigger room". In a small room M2s or M22s with a good sub will be as good as you would ever want, but in a much larger room the little speakers will sound great at low volumes but they won't be able to open up and fill the room at high volumes.

I ran M2s plus a big-ass sub for a while in a 10x13 corner of a larger room and was very happy with the results. The M2s are extremely accurate speakers, even compared to the rest of the Axiom line, but they are small. When I used the whole 13x23 room the M2s sounded "small and weak" unless I sat close while the M60s sounded "big and clear".

If you are not likely to move into a bigger room in the future I wouldn't worry about future-proofing so much -- but if you really want the M60s and don't mind adding the last bits later then you would always regret getting anything else.

I started with M2s and a sub, then added M60s about 9 months later, then a center, then QS8s, then finally QS stands, spread over about 2 years.


Edited by bridgman (07/27/06 08:35 PM)

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#144318 - 07/27/06 09:06 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: bridgman]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4832
Loc: western canada
Ditto what bridgman said.
I'm not typing it all in.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#144319 - 07/27/06 10:46 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: chesseroo]
Jordan Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 165
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Yup, since Chess seconded it, I'll just go ahead and carry the motion Bridgeman tabled. Otherwise, I would choose option 3.

J

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#144320 - 07/28/06 01:50 AM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Jordan]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8293
Loc: Tacoma
Move to close debate.

I was basically on a modified version of the bridgman plan (waited for the sub). No regrets.

Underscore the notion of hanging the QS8's on the wall or ceiling if at all possible.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#144321 - 07/28/06 09:44 AM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: tomtuttle]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
The problem with mounting the QS8's is I have a room shaped as an open ended on one side. I am not able to mount the QS8s with the wall bracket at a 90 degree angle off the back wall, it would need to be on a side wall which i don't have have on one side .

All your suggestions have been very helpfull. I will most likly get the "3b" option. I have heard the M60 are sufficient in any room size. Plus I would be avioding upgraditis altogether (i can use that as a selling feature for the wife).

I priced out all the factory disounted models and such, to get option 3 with a sub as well costs 477 dollars more than option 1 (about the price of a centre channel).

I am pretty much sold on the M60's, even though i have a smaller room I want to get something that will blast at high volumes and produce great vocals with low ends (which the M22s lack I hear).

Last my wife heard from me, i told her 5K was the amount I was spending for the HT (including cables/AE900U projector/Yamaha V1600 reciever etc...). It seems after I have been browsing these forums my budget just jumped around 1K to $6000.

I should mention that I am a drummer by trade, went to music school, have worked in studios and I love good sound which is why the M60's are so appealing to me.

-Robb.


Edited by Hutzal (07/28/06 10:14 AM)

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#144322 - 07/28/06 11:28 AM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
Jordan Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 165
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
I am a drummer as well. The one thing that really jumped out to me when I hooked up the M60's for the first time is how nice the cymbols sound. Hi-hats, ride, crash etc. sound crystal clear.

J

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#144323 - 07/28/06 11:38 AM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8293
Loc: Tacoma
If you're just doing 5.1 (which I highly recommend) you might have just fine success mounting the QS8's ON the back wall, particularly if your listening position is far back in the room. People go on and on about how forgiving they are placement wise, and I have found that to be true. The quadpolar design really does give you lots of options. If there are half-decent options for positioning the surrounds on the back wall, I'd definitely give that a shot and put the stand money towards a sub or the 60's.

btw, I have the VP100 in a very large room and find it to be more than adequate. I am extremely pleased by the QS8's and M60's and have no remorse whatsoever. They are delightful on a daily basis.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#144324 - 09/18/06 05:58 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Well, I am in my house now, my room dimensions are 16 x 14 x 8 and a totally enclosed space.

This will be my LAST question of advise from you Axiom Owners, please don't get annoyed!

I am re-considering my position on the M60s simply because they are HUGE and may not be ideal for placement (physically) in my room due to the position of the screen and its relation to the door to the room (it may run the risk of getting bumped into by unsuspecting people in my house. And the fact that they take up alot of room.

Would the following work in my small room at high listening levels? It is about 1800 cubic feet of space.

2 x M3 (I know, big downgrade from the M60)
2 x QS8
1 x VP100
1 x SVS PB10-NSD

Main Listening Position will be roughly 11 feet from the speakers and 4 feet from the back wall and I could set the crossover for the sub at 80hz giving some breathing room to the M3s.

I was thinking today that I could easily downgrade for my room size, I am planning on building a studio in the basement as well, If the M3s don't work out for the theatre I will upgrade and put the M3s in the Studio, either way they will be used.

But I guess my next question would be what is better for studio monitors, the M22s or the M3s? Ths may influence my decision.

Anyone using these as studio monitors?

-Robb.
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#144325 - 09/18/06 10:28 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
newkid2005 Offline
local

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 200
Loc: napa, california
get the 80s........you won't be sorry......they sound great

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#144326 - 09/18/06 11:17 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
JohnK Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10403
No, Robb, I'm not using the M22s as studio monitors, but in that size room the M22s with that sub should be excellent.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#144327 - 09/18/06 11:47 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: newkid2005]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Quote:

get the 80s........you won't be sorry......they sound great




hmmm, i could have swore I saw money growing on the tree in my backyard!
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#144328 - 09/20/06 02:37 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
newkid2005 Offline
local

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 200
Loc: napa, california
you just have to look harder....you will find money !!! plus you don't have to worry about "upgraditis"...a very dangeroud and usually fatal condition for the wallet......

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#144329 - 09/20/06 03:34 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
F107plus5 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 2034
Loc: Fla. Orig. Mich.
Quote:

Well, I am in my house now, my room dimensions are 16 x 14 x 8 and a totally enclosed space.

This will be my LAST question of advise from you Axiom Owners, please don't get annoyed!

I am re-considering my position on the M60s simply because they are HUGE and may not be ideal for placement (physically) in my room due to the position of the screen and its relation to the door to the room (it may run the risk of getting bumped into by unsuspecting people in my house. And the fact that they take up alot of room.

Would the following work in my small room at high listening levels? It is about 1800 cubic feet of space.

2 x M3 (I know, big downgrade from the M60)
2 x QS8
1 x VP100
1 x SVS PB10-NSD

Main Listening Position will be roughly 11 feet from the speakers and 4 feet from the back wall and I could set the crossover for the sub at 80hz giving some breathing room to the M3s.

I was thinking today that I could easily downgrade for my room size, I am planning on building a studio in the basement as well, If the M3s don't work out for the theatre I will upgrade and put the M3s in the Studio, either way they will be used.

But I guess my next question would be what is better for studio monitors, the M22s or the M3s? Ths may influence my decision.

Anyone using these as studio monitors?

-Robb.




Ok. I ain'ta gonna recommend nothin', but in my old house.....

In my old house with a 13X28X8 room I had three M3s across the front and they worked GREAT!! It was a "good" room and the imaging and soundstage were spot-on. I could even tell the colors of the back-up singers dresses in one number.

Yeah; it was that good.(well; almost )
Rich.

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#144330 - 09/21/06 04:48 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: F107plus5]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Thanks for all the advise. I have come to grips with my "want" to get the M60s even though the left speaker would most likely get kicked by someone in the dark while they are leaving the room for popcorn.

I am going to go the route of 2 M22's wall mounted (which saves me even more room, probably addds about 2 feet of walking distance compared to the M60s being 10" from the wall).

I heard they produce alot more bass response when wall mounted as well (which is why I am choosing to wall mount).

I will be using drywall anchors as I have no studs to screw them into. Should be a very "interesting" time the first time I slip the M22s onto the wall mount.

I will go with a VP150 to assure ultimate clarity. and of course QS8s for the ultimate surrounds!

-Hutz
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#144331 - 09/21/06 08:11 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5431
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Mark (MarkSJohnson) did something nice with his QS surrounds. He mounted the QS8 brackets to some slightly larger wood plaques and then mounted THOSE to the wall. I don't remember if this just gave him better leverage or let him reach a stud that was otherwise too far from the speaker, but it looked real nice and something like that might let you get a more secure mounting.

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#144332 - 09/22/06 12:45 AM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: bridgman]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Quote:

Mark (MarkSJohnson) did something nice with his QS surrounds. He mounted the QS8 brackets to some slightly larger wood plaques and then mounted THOSE to the wall. I don't remember if this just gave him better leverage or let him reach a stud that was otherwise too far from the speaker, but it looked real nice and something like that might let you get a more secure mounting.




Ya i have thought of that as well. Not sure how I am going to end up mounting the M22's. I heard those drywall anchors are good up to 90lbs? And with 2 anchors holding the bracket, it should be ok. I also have a whole SCHWACK of mud for filling in drywall, so if it does rip through for some obscure reason, I have the supplies to fix it!

-Hutz
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#144333 - 09/22/06 07:41 AM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5431
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Those 90 pound ratings can be deceiving. That's "90 pounds pulling straight down", not "90 pounds hanging out on the end of a bracket so the resulting forces are pulling OUT of the wall".

The lower mounting point will be no problem, but the upper one will be trying to pull out of the wall, and if the distance from wall to weight is larger than the distance between mounting points you also get a multiplying effect from the leverage.

For example, 10 pounds 12 inches away from the wall, on a bracket with 3 inches between the mounting points, will be pulling OUT of the wall with more than 10 pounds of force.

I'm not worried about patching the wall; just worried about patching speakers and whatever they land on

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#144334 - 09/22/06 09:15 AM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: bridgman]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10939
Loc: Central NH
From the library:


_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#144335 - 09/22/06 09:52 AM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
How did you attach that plaque to the wall?

-Robb.
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#144336 - 09/22/06 11:18 AM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10939
Loc: Central NH
Quote:

How did you attach that plaque to the wall?




Hi Robb:
I used hollow wall anchors as the walls are old horsehair plaster..... which was my reasoning in making the plaques in the first place. As many will attest, the QS8s are surprisingly heavy, and I wanted to distribute the weight over a larger area.

The color matches pretty well most of the time, but sometimes, depending upon the light, it's a bit off.
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#144337 - 09/22/06 02:00 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: MarkSJohnson]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5431
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Did you drill holes in the plaques to mount them to the wall, or is there some clever hook arrangement behind ?

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#144338 - 09/22/06 02:02 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13340
Loc: Iowa
Elmers Glue
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#144339 - 09/22/06 07:45 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: SirQuack]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10939
Loc: Central NH
Duct tape is pretty much universal around here.

Actually, the screw holes are behind the QS8!
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#144340 - 09/26/06 01:50 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: Hutzal]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10399
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
If you have lots of mud could you not decide where to put your speakers cut the drywall, put in proper bracing behind, reinstall the drywall, mud, and then repaint? I would as the QS8's are heavy and I wouldn't want one to come crashing down. Especially with my kids banging into the walls occasionally.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#144341 - 09/26/06 02:07 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: jakewash]
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
You *could*, but using good wall anchors such as toggle bolts should be adequate. The Qs are close enough to the wall and the T bracket has 6 screw holes that you could completely use if wanted.

I believe I used 4 drywall anchors for each surround and I've had no problems with any of my 4 QS8s. If you can get one of the screw holes in the T bracket on a stud, then of course that is better, but I wouldn't think you need to tear your walls up just for bracing.
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#144342 - 09/26/06 07:48 PM Re: If you had a choice between... [Re: dllewel]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5431
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Exactly. Just use good anchors and lots of them. At the old house I had one of the QS8s mounted on cheap old wood panelling maybe 1/8 thick or less. Pretty flimsy stuff.

With 3 screws it was iffy, but with 5 screws it was there to stay.

The bracket is STILL there, come to think about it


Edited by bridgman (09/26/06 07:50 PM)

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