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#147885 - 09/18/06 09:17 PM M22 Question
LHawes Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 71
I really love my M22's, as a matter of fact I seem to enjoy them more each time I turn them on but I was wondering why they are so bass light from what seems to be no accidental design decision.

I was wondering why Axion didn't put a third slightly larger midwoofer type speaker and cover another 10 - 20 hz lower than the present design thereby creating the perfect full range bookshelf speaker.

As the current design sits I have to choose between listening to the wonderful mids and highs but not enough bass or adding a subbie which I did.

I think it might be bad form to discuss such things or perhaps they have been discussed way too much but I would LOVE, let's say, an 'M35' with the M22's current tweeter plus the M22's current 5.25" AND the M3's 6.5" woofer. Would that be a GREAT speaker or am I missing something - like maybe canibalizing sales from the M60?

I would buy it tomorrow. What do you think?


Edited by LHawes (09/18/06 09:19 PM)

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#147886 - 09/18/06 11:34 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: LHawes]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10360
Larry, I think that my M22s aren't at all "bass light" within their designed range(which is fine for nearly all music, pipe organ excepted). Simply replacing one of the mid-woofers with the 6 1/2" from the M3 wouldn't make a significant difference; the M22's bass extension is just as deep as the M3's.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#147887 - 09/19/06 12:54 AM Re: M22 Question [Re: JohnK]
bridgman Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5279
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Yep. You would need a larger cabinet to get real decent bass out of the 6.5" driver. Remember the M40 ? Now *those* had nice bass, albeit thanks to a 3-foot tall cabinet, and a number of us wondered about adding a 5.25" driver to the M40 to get a 3-way system.

The real issue, I suspect, is that home theater sales, ie systems where you can pretty much guarantee the presence of a subwoofer, outnumber "pure music system" sales by about 10 to 1 in almost every sales channel, and the M22 is a better speaker "with sub" than the 3-way bookshelf speaker you were discussing.

I think that was why the M40s didn't sell well -- if you already had a subwoofer, the M40 didn't offer much benefit over the M3.

WITHOUT a subwoofer the M40s are wonderful speakers and in a totally different league from the M3s. I still think the M40 configuration (2-way with a big enough cabinet for good bass extension) is my favorite for pure music applications.


Edited by bridgman (09/19/06 01:03 AM)

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#147888 - 09/19/06 02:16 AM Re: M22 Question [Re: bridgman]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Quote:

I still think the M40 configuration (2-way with a big enough cabinet for good bass extension) is my favorite for pure music applications




I agree. Like you said before, the M40s are ideal bedroom speakers. I still haven't mastered the art of sub integration in a two channel system, and the M40s are wonderful at being able to reproduce most music in a small setting by themselves.
_________________________
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#147889 - 09/19/06 07:53 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: LHawes]
LHawes Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 71
Hey thanks for the thoughtful replies. I have a lot to learn about speakers and didn't even knoe thw M40 ever existed. I guess I'm just destined for some M60's and trying to put it off. Thanks again for the replies.

Larry

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#147890 - 09/19/06 08:41 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: LHawes]
bridgman Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5279
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Here's a review on the M40 :

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/axiom_millenniam40ti.htm

Don't forget about the M50s while you are looking around. They don't get reviewed as much but by all accounts are very nice speakers, with all of the positives of the M40 plus midrange which is more like M3 than M40...


Edited by bridgman (09/19/06 08:43 PM)

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#147891 - 09/19/06 08:48 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: LHawes]
JasonEuc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 30
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
LHawes,

I think what you're describing is the M50's... :-) Sorry, I'm not aware of what the M40's were, since they were from my pre-Axiom awareness time period.

Unless the speakers must be on a "bookshelf", and as long as you're serious about wanting bass, there's really no benefit to the bookshelf style over the M50 towers. The larger cabinet of the 50's will provide the bass extension you're seeking. I've never wished my 50's were a 3-way design, because I love the way they sound as a 2-way. So smooth...

Kind of like engines, there's no substitute for cubic inches.


Edited by JasonEuc (09/19/06 08:50 PM)
_________________________
- JasonEuc M50's, CC370, M3's, Rotel RSX-965, Integra DPC 7.5, Harmony 688

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#147892 - 09/19/06 10:46 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: JasonEuc]
LHawes Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 71
Yeah I probably am describing the M50's as I read through the threads and thanks for that M40 link. I know I'll be sticking with my M22's for a while and upgrading will certainly not be an easy decision when that time comes.

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#147893 - 09/19/06 11:16 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: LHawes]
bridgman Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5279
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Seriously, if you have a sub with the M22s stop worrying. When it's time to upgrade, get a better sub.

If you move to a much bigger room, think hard about bigger speakers. Enjoy !!

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#147894 - 09/20/06 12:46 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: LHawes]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi LHawes,

Relative to JohnK's comments on the "bass-light" M22s, I just returned from doing a bunch of double-blind listening tests at Axiom. One of the comparisons (I didn't know what was behind the curtain), included a pair of M22s wall-mounted using Full Metal Brackets.

I couldn't believe the increase in bass output of the M22s bracket-mounted versus M22s on stands. Ian pointed out that he measured a 9-dB increase in the M22s bass output when you wall-mount them on brackets. So if you want more bass output from the M22s, and you aren't using a sub, put 'em on the wall on a pair of brackets.

At the time I was switching back and forth during the blind sessions, I was speculating that Ian had developed a "perfect" new speaker with all the virtues of the M22s plus really solid bass. And I knew one of the pairs I was auditioning was higher up so I figured it had to be something on a wall. When the curtain was drawn after the tests, I was flabbergasted.
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#147895 - 09/20/06 02:14 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: alan]
bridgman Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5279
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Interesting.

Alan, do you think the same results would be achieved by pushing the stands right back against the wall, or do you think being "mid-wall" on brackets also helped ?

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#147896 - 09/20/06 03:55 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: bridgman]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
John,

You'll certainly get some enhancement of bass output if you put the M22s up against the wall on the stands. As to how much, I'll check that with Ian. I'm curious myself about the mid-wall position of the M22s on brackets and whether greater bass reinforcement occurs because of the larger wall surface acting as boundary enhancement.

Keep in mind, too, that the bass reinforcement may not be entirely even over the lower octaves, but in my listening tests in the Axiom room, I did not hear uneven bass extension. That may vary, of course, depending on the listener position in the room and, I suspect, the total area of the surface behind the speaker that is bracket-mounted.
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#147897 - 09/20/06 08:37 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: bridgman]
LHawes Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 71
Quote:

Seriously, if you have a sub with the M22s stop worrying. When it's time to upgrade, get a better sub.

If you move to a much bigger room, think hard about bigger speakers. Enjoy !!




I've never heard contemplating upgrading audio equipment called worrying and of course the problem I have is not really a problem at all as you have pointed out.

The reason I am contemplating a change is because I don't have a receiver or preamp and am running BOTH my M22's and my sub from my 2 channel ATI Amp sourced via a SqueezeBox and would really rather not mess with a sub at all. One reason is the relative lack of crossover or any other kind of bass control with the setup I have.

No HT, No television, just 2 channel music. I may eventually pick up a pre amp for a little more control but will never use this system for anything other than music and again would just prefer a system without a sub.

In the meantime I WILL take your advice and enjoy the music with what I have - which is, as you know, a very small sacrifice.

Thanks

Larry

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#147898 - 09/20/06 08:44 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: alan]
LHawes Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 71
Quote:

Hi LHawes,

Relative to JohnK's comments on the "bass-light" M22s, I just returned from doing a bunch of double-blind listening tests at Axiom. One of the comparisons (I didn't know what was behind the curtain), included a pair of M22s wall-mounted using Full Metal Brackets.

I couldn't believe the increase in bass output of the M22s bracket-mounted versus M22s on stands. Ian pointed out that he measured a 9-dB increase in the M22s bass output when you wall-mount them on brackets. So if you want more bass output from the M22s, and you aren't using a sub, put 'em on the wall on a pair of brackets.

At the time I was switching back and forth during the blind sessions, I was speculating that Ian had developed a "perfect" new speaker with all the virtues of the M22s plus really solid bass. And I knew one of the pairs I was auditioning was higher up so I figured it had to be something on a wall. When the curtain was drawn after the tests, I was flabbergasted.




Very interesting. I'll try your suggestion for grins but don't think it will change things in my room as it would mean hiding the M22's behind the sides of the large TV Amoir that house my audio stuff.

"I was speculating that Ian had developed a "perfect" new speaker with all the virtues of the M22s plus really solid bass." And of course this previous thought is what prompted my original post.

Thanks for the info

larry

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#147899 - 09/20/06 09:12 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: LHawes]
bridgman Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5279
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
>>I've never heard contemplating upgrading audio equipment called worrying and of course the problem I have is not really a problem at all as you have pointed out.

That was my mistake. I was posting in a hurry and mixed up two threads. Ignore

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#147900 - 09/20/06 10:04 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: LHawes]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10360
Sure, Larry, experiment with positioning. My M22s aren't wall mounted on brackets, but they are very close to the wall, which serves to fortify the low bass without any bad effects in my experience. Having the mid-woofers very close to one wall(or the floor)is okay, but the three distances(wall, wall, floor)should be different from each other.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#147901 - 09/21/06 07:57 AM Re: M22 Question [Re: alan]
JasonEuc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 30
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Alan,

Could you elaborate a bit more on the 9dB increase by wall mounting? At what frequency does that occur, and does the overall extension change or only the relative levels at a specific frequency?

I'm just surprised at the 9dB number because that means the M22's are behaving 8X's as loud?

Here's my simple calcs:
3dB= 2X's as loud (2^1)
6dB= 4X's as loud (2^2)
9dB= 8X's as loud (2^3)

Or is my understanding just WAY off?
_________________________
- JasonEuc M50's, CC370, M3's, Rotel RSX-965, Integra DPC 7.5, Harmony 688

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#147902 - 09/21/06 12:29 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: JasonEuc]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Is it possible to bracket mount these M22s with drywall anchors? There are no studs next to where my front projector screen will go. Will 2 drywall anchors be able to support the weight of the bracket and the M22?

One more question, I will be using a 5'(width) x 20" (depth) x 20" (high) DIY "Flexy" audio video rack under the screen. If I wall mount my M22s beside the screen I will have to put the centre channel on top at the back of my rack that I made, thus it won't be at the front edge (which would produce the best sound). There will be no shelf on top of it though, It will open above the speaker.

Will it be sufficient with mabey a foot of MDF wood in front of the speaker? I am 99% it doesn't really make a huge difference, I am just checking, it may affect my decision to even make the AV rack.
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#147903 - 09/21/06 11:12 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: Hutzal]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10360
Robb, it's unclear why your center speaker would have to be recessed rather than being at the front edge of the rack. No, it wouldn't make a "huge" difference, but the diffraction should be avoided if at all possible. My suggestion would be to consider a third M22 positioned vertically under the screen as the center and to rearrange the rack to the extent necessary to provide the room.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#147904 - 09/22/06 12:53 AM Re: M22 Question [Re: JohnK]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Quote:

Robb, it's unclear why your center speaker would have to be recessed rather than being at the front edge of the rack. No, it wouldn't make a "huge" difference, but the diffraction should be avoided if at all possible. My suggestion would be to consider a third M22 positioned vertically under the screen as the center and to rearrange the rack to the extent necessary to provide the room.




Isn't it advisable to have the centre channel flush with the left and right mains? Would it matter much if the centre channel was a foot or so in front of the mains?

I could make the rack a little lower to the groud thus providing enough room for me to make a riser of some sort to stick the centre channel on to lift it off of the rack a couple inches, would this be sufficient?

Or should I try and stick a rack some place else? I was planning on putting the sub in the back right hand corner of the room with a bass trap on top of it (ala Ethan Winer). I guess I could stick that bass trap at the back of the room in the corner near the seating area. Technically it would provide the same amount of bass because it is omnidirectional? And then I could stick my rack in the corner leaving a whole front of space for the centre channel to be mounted on a stand or something.

EDIT: a vertical M22 would be good because I am only alotting 30" below the bottom of the screen in order to put the picture around 1/3 from the bottom at eye level. Hence not enough room.

-Hutz


Edited by Hutzal (09/22/06 12:57 AM)
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#147905 - 09/22/06 01:09 AM Re: M22 Question [Re: Hutzal]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10360
Robb, the point is to have the sound from the mains and the center reach the listener at the same instant. If this is done from positioning alone, the center speaker should actually be slightly farther back in order to be the same distance as the mains, but one doesn't have to rely on positioning alone; the receiver has distance settings for setting up the speakers which can adjust for a center speaker which is closer by delaying it slightly. So, this isn't a reason not to have the center speaker slightly overhanging the edge of whatever supports it.

Again, my preference is for the wider and smoother horizontal dispersion of a vertical center speaker, as compared with most(all?)horizontal configurations. I'd use M22s all across the front and put the rack wherever else was convenient.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#147906 - 09/22/06 02:55 AM Re: M22 Question [Re: JohnK]
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
JohnK - you find a vertically oriented centre to be superior in horizontal dispersion? Really?

I did some testing with an M22 and an M3 against my VP150 and found the dialog sweet spot a LOT wider with the Vocal Point.

Bren R.

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#147907 - 09/22/06 10:28 AM Re: M22 Question [Re: JohnK]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Quote:

Robb, the point is to have the sound from the mains and the center reach the listener at the same instant. If this is done from positioning alone, the center speaker should actually be slightly farther back in order to be the same distance as the mains, but one doesn't have to rely on positioning alone; the receiver has distance settings for setting up the speakers which can adjust for a center speaker which is closer by delaying it slightly. So, this isn't a reason not to have the center speaker slightly overhanging the edge of whatever supports it.

Again, my preference is for the wider and smoother horizontal dispersion of a vertical center speaker, as compared with most(all?)horizontal configurations. I'd use M22s all across the front and put the rack wherever else was convenient.




Do you use 2 M22s for the centre channel? I looked at my diagram and figured out that I can put the AV rack in the corner in front of the sub (if the sub goes in that corner) because the sub will be facing the wall anyway so I can have access to the controls.

I'll make it a 20" x 20" rack as high as I need it. So its all good.

-Hutz
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#147908 - 09/23/06 04:21 AM Re: M22 Question [Re: Hutzal]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10360
No need for two center M22s, Robb; one does the job.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#147909 - 09/23/06 10:40 AM Re: M22 Question [Re: JasonEuc]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
JasonEuc,

Your understanding is way off. Loudness, as measured in dB SPL (Sound Pressure Level) and our subjective perception of what constitutes "somewhat louder," "clearly louder," and "twice as loud" is complicated and is not calculated by simply multiplying the decibels arithmetically.

A 3-dB increase in loudness most listeners describe as "somewhat (or a bit) louder"; a 6-dB increase as "clearly louder"; and roughly a 10-dB increase as "twice as loud".

Wall-mounting the M22s increases their lower bass output below 100 Hz by as much as 9 dB, according to Ian's measurements. That is heard subjectively (and I heard it in the blind tests) as the lower bass in the 40 Hz to 80 Hz range sounding about twice as loud, especially in the lower octaves where the M22s on stands normally roll off (gradually decline in output).

The decibel is a source of great confusion because everyone at first assumes there is an arithmetic relationship between power in watts and a speaker's sound output in decibels. I've written about this at greater length in the Axiom newsletter archives.
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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