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Re: HTPC...again
Rik #148260 09/27/06 02:42 AM
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Great thread...lots of the same types of questions I have about this. Not being able to record in HD would be a deal breaker for me though.

I haven't done much research yet, since I was going to wait for Vista before attempting this anyway, but maybe Vista with the proper video card will allow for HD recording *thinking wishfully*.

Re: HTPC...again
Zarak #148261 09/27/06 03:40 PM
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Only with a Cable Card. And that locks you to the prebuilt system market.


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Re: HTPC...again
Rik #148262 09/27/06 03:45 PM
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I am more than a little cautious about that article. Look at the byline. While I usually trust Audioholics (and no offense is meant), I gotta take something written by an HTPC vendor with a grain of salt. Especially the bit about DIY. Please. If you can do it, Mr. Reseller, so can someone else. Besides, the argument falls apart a bit when he mentions (right after that) that "you can upgrade to Blu-Ray/HDDVD!" Um... if you can't build a system without bugs, how can you make a major component change without bugs?

EDIT:

BTW, I don't want to make it look like I'm totally against HTPCs. I think they're wicked cool. What I am against is people getting snowed by the entertainment industry into accepting the restrictions they impose on us just so they can make an extra buck.

Plus I'm a pedant, and a tech. Means I have to nitpick.

Last edited by kcarlile; 09/27/06 03:47 PM.

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Re: HTPC...again
spiffnme #148263 09/27/06 07:51 PM
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Spiff,

The October 2006 issue of Maximum PC is dedicated to building a Media PC. The article is exhaustive - it even gives reviews on some components as well as software suggestions. You shouldn't have to pay for monthly TIVO, there is plenty of software that will not charge a monthly fee. If you cannot find that issue, let me know and I will make a copy for you.

Re: HTPC...again
Ken.C #148264 09/27/06 11:45 PM
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Quote:

I am more than a little cautious about that article. Look at the byline. While I usually trust Audioholics (and no offense is meant), I gotta take something written by an HTPC vendor with a grain of salt. Especially the bit about DIY. Please. If you can do it, Mr. Reseller, so can someone else. Besides, the argument falls apart a bit when he mentions (right after that) that "you can upgrade to Blu-Ray/HDDVD!" Um... if you can't build a system without bugs, how can you make a major component change without bugs?

EDIT:

BTW, I don't want to make it look like I'm totally against HTPCs. I think they're wicked cool. What I am against is people getting snowed by the entertainment industry into accepting the restrictions they impose on us just so they can make an extra buck.

Plus I'm a pedant, and a tech. Means I have to nitpick.





I have to agree with you on that point. Right or wrong, I believe if I can build my own computer I could manage a HTPC also.

Re: HTPC...again
spiffnme #148265 09/28/06 02:24 AM
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Quote:

1) I recently read some tests in which PC based video cards were blowing stand alone DVD player performance away. (FAR away) That included players such as the Denon DVD-3910!





I have been running HTPCs for a long time now. Software scalers and the software algorithms in players such as WinDVd, Dscaler, FDDshow has surpased quality seen in normal DVD players. The picture gets cleaned up, smoothens up and presents such a natural filmlike presentation. It can also make it worse by digitizing it too much. I have done head to head comparison on some of the DVD players I have vs a HTPC and a properly configured one can surpass it. One major reason is scaling 1:1 so your HTPC output equals the same resolution of viewing source such as matching your HTPC output to native resolution of your projector so no scaling occurs on the projector and the best possible picture is coming out of the HTPC.
Quote:




2) TivoHD...$899 + $12.95/month???? There's got to be a better/cheape way to record/playback HD.





If HD DV can be recorded via Firewire I can not see why HD feed can not be decoded and recorded as long as you stay in the digital realm.(Maybe I'm presuming some stuff) HD Camcorders have come out with HD DV content this past year. It is easily transfered over firewire in the digital realm to Final Cut Pro HD or Vegas Video. You do need lots lots lots of space and processing power to capture.
Normal dv is 1 meg a sec (My Sony Mini DV cam captures and transfer at this rate 720x480p)
Hdv is about 16 megs a second 720p (commercial HD DV cams 1280x720p)
True Hd 32 megs a second(professional HD DV cams 1920x1080p)
So if my math is right a 60 minute show in true HD is 115200 megs = 115 gigs to store in its uncompressed format.
Ouchie!!!! lots of hard drive is needed.


Quote:


3) Convienence...having my entire music collection ripped at the highest possible bit rate MP3's and stored on disk is hard to pass up. If I want some critical listening, I can always pull the disc off the shelf.





lossless digitizing which many people on this site do. OGG, slap the monkey...i dunno..lots of experts on here on this.


Quote:


1) Amplification? We all go out and buy recievers with 120 watts per channel, stand alone amps, etc...what gives? What's driving the 5.1 (or 7.1) channels in a HTPC?





HTPC should have digital out to receivers. You also can attach analog out from HTPC audio card for all channels into analog 7.1 input on receiver. I even tried attaching my tube monoblocks to each output on my HTPC. I would not recommend this as a PC can have dirty output sometimes on startup and a big "POP" can be heard through your speakers as the PC starts up. I thought my tubes exploded!!!!
As for capturing capturing the 5.1/7.1 information since the video is captured via digital realm I am presuming the audio is captured also in the digital realm.

Quote:


5) How important is processor speed? RAM? Dual Core? A lot of money can be saved here if the machine doesn't need to be a monster.





Here are some basic info on minimum recommendation to capture HD content. Might be helpful or not since this is based on capturing HD DV and creating DV content.

http://www.videoguys.com/system.htm



Quote:


6) (this one is specific to my Sony KDS-60A2000 tv) The TV has an HDMI input and a VGA input, but no DVI. Can I buy a DVI to HDMI cable and run that between the PC and TV?




http://www.lynnprod.com/products1.asp?prodid=178

Re: HTPC...again
Saturn #148266 09/28/06 02:44 AM
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Sure, there's no technical reason. But first show me a cable box that outputs full def video on firewire, then show me a card that accepts and interprets that, and the software to use it. AFAIK, it's the last two that are the trouble.


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Re: HTPC...again
Ken.C #148267 09/28/06 04:04 AM
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spiffnme: heres an example of a product that has a FAQ on some of the questions you asked about recording HD stuff on a HTPC using a HDTV card.
http://www.digitalconnection.com/Support/cn_myhd_1.asp

kcarlile: Here are some STB with firewire out. Connect firewire out to the digital input of a digital converter of any camcorder that accepts digital input via firewire. Camcorder converts it to HD DV format (I think) and pass the HD DV content via firewire to firewire input on PC using Video Vegas or firewire input on Mac using Final Cut Pro HD.
http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/KD-FIRE1080P.htm
This is dated but what happened to this.
http://digital-lifestyles.info/display_page.asp?section=platforms&id=1181

Here are MAC products that can record HD satellite feeds and and record using the Sats Program interface. The recorded show can be manipulated after recorded using Final Cut Pro in MAC. One transfers in firewire and the other STB can transfer via USB for captured programs.
http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyetvhybridna
http://www.twinhan.com/product_terrestrial_9.asp

The mini mac is a great alternate to a HTPC.

What people do if their STB has firewire out they record not on harddrive due to capacity but on D-VHS which can store 50 gigs or 4 hours of 1080i HD content on D-VHS tape.
http://www.dvhsmovie.com/


Re: HTPC...again
Saturn #148268 09/28/06 05:43 AM
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1) I recently read some tests in which PC based video cards were blowing stand alone DVD player performance away. (FAR away) That included players such as the Denon DVD-3910!

A: There are many variables to this question. Just because you have a nice video card, doesn't mean it's going to automatically blow that nice DVD player out of the box. You can use software to adjust the picture (DScaler comes to mind) and tweak it all you like, but again this does require some know how and research.

2) TivoHD...$899 + $12.95/month???? There's got to be a better/cheape way to record/playback HD.

A: Tivo *JUST* got HD recording, I've owned a DVR from my cable company for almost a year now and I can record two HD sources at once. Critics will argue my box (a SA 8300HD if you're curious) isn't as polished and feature rich as a tivo, but hey I'VE BEEN ABLE TO RECORD FOR A YEAR :P! Also I didn't pay $900 for it. That's a whole other thread.

3) Convienence...having my entire music collection ripped at the highest possible bit rate MP3's and stored on disk is hard to pass up. If I want some critical listening, I can always pull the disc off the shelf.

A: This is indeed a good reason, however you don't need an HTPC to do this. There's hardware on the market that connects to your receiver and your home network and can stream both internet radio and your music collection to your stereo.

Questions:

1) Amplification? We all go out and buy recievers with 120 watts per channel, stand alone amps, etc...what gives? What's driving the 5.1 (or 7.1) channels in a HTPC?

A: It's the exact same as plugging a device into your receiver. The computer has it's power, the receiver gives power to the speakers. I use a digital coax connection (RCA on both ends) to output the pure digital straem to my receiver -- all the processing is done there, it's DAC's are much more powerful then the ones in my computer's sound card.

2) DVR capabilities...Tivo is fantastic. How's DVR work in a HTPC? How would I hook up the PC to my cable? How does programming show to record in the future work?

A: WIth the purchase of one (or more) tuner cards you can connect your cable signal to your PC. Multiple tuner cards allows you to record multiple shows at a time. Recorded shows work just like Tivo or a DVR from the cable company would work.

3) HDTV...I've heard that you cannot record HD. True?

A: True for the moment. The reason being is you need to decode the HD stream and encode it into something your PC can use, compression is also involved as HD takes up a lot of storage space. Also with HDCP on the horizon providers can flag certain shows to not be recorded, so to understand this signal you'd need an HDCP compliant tuner card.

4) HD-DVD/Blu-Ray...Assuming down the road you can buy ad HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray DVD drive. If I throw that into the HTPC...is the DVI out of the video card going to be able to pass the full 1080p signal? Are cards going to need to incorporate HDMI to make HD-DVD/Blu-Ray playback on a HTPC possible?

A: yes DVI can handle 1080p video. There have also been HDMI cards announced from the major players that will allow you to connect directly to your TV, HDCP is supported as well. As for HDDVD/BluRay both are in early adoption phases at the moment, ignore what any "fan boy-ish" posts may tell you. Neither is a proven winner at the moment, and yes optical drives are coming but at the moment they're about a grand a piece and the blu-ray drive for example can't even read CD's

5) How important is processor speed? RAM? Dual Core? A lot of money can be saved here if the machine doesn't need to be a monster.

A: It doesn't need to be a big Dual Xeon workstation like the computer I'm typing on, but a Core 2 Duo would do wonderfully and the lowest model is cheap(ish) and will totally rock your socks. RAM is another component I'd get a good amount of, it's so cheap these days anyways 2 gigabytes I wouldn't even bat an eye at. If you're really performance nuts you can look into faster hard drives (SCSI for example, or SATA) to improve performance there, but every piece of hardware has it's areas to get more boost.

6) (this one is specific to my Sony KDS-60A2000 tv) The TV has an HDMI input and a VGA input, but no DVI. Can I buy a DVI to HDMI cable and run that between the PC and TV?

A: You can indeed by a HDMI - DVI cable, AvCables.com sells them in good lengths. You can also use a DVI - DVI cable with an adapter on one end. Note that you'll still need seperate audio conenctions as DVI doesn't pass audio (though I'm guessing you already figured this out since it goes into your video card :P)

BONUS: Software?

A: Software is what'll make or break your HTPC experience. You can now buy Windows XP Media Center Edition (MCE) as a standalone product. It provides a interface that your TV can use easily, it even comes with a universal remote if I recall. It'll allow you to browse TV, pictures, movies on your PC, music files, etc. The program guide works much like digital cable box from your cable company does.

If you're into the homegrown scene there's a linux based product called MythTV which is also quite the deal, there's SageTV and BeyondTV to look at as well.

NOTE 1: If you go the HTPC route you'll only be able to record the analog TV channels (2-99) or "Basic" cable from your provider. All the digital content / subscriber content (channels that you pay extra for, like TMN or TechTV) won't work because they have to be authorized by the cable company.

There's a standard called CableCard which is essentially a PCMCIA expansion card (like the ones used in laptops) that stores all that access / account information on the card and allows you to access all the other channels. CableCARD technology is currently being ported to a PCI expansion card style of product so you can through that into your HTPC and record all the premium content / HD content as well. In time though, in time.

I hope this helps answer some of your questions, if you have any more feel free to PM/email me and I'd be glad to answer them.

- D


"Big John is my Idol...or is it that other way around? Let's ask Ray!"
Re: HTPC...again
Saturn #148269 09/28/06 04:02 PM
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In that first link, it's very clear what HDTV you can record with their stuff: free, over the air transmission, even if it's coming over your cable. I guarantee that ESPN is not unencrypted, and neither is anything but those stations that are available free over the air.

Got anything to go with those product links describing how to record (and decrypt) encrypted HDTV or get a full def unencrypted signal out of firewire?


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