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#153755 - 12/17/06 11:11 AM Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance
Tarun Offline
local

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 295
Loc: Hillsborough, NJ
Hello all.
So I finally got my Denon AVR 2807 in and plugged up.
I did the auto setup procedure with the MIC at 6 locations.
While everything seems ok, the frequencies it selected were kind of strange. However, I left them alone and it seems fine.

My real concern is the distance it detected on my subwoofer. 25ft. My sub is about 8ft from the listening positions.
The manual says to set the sub crossover to its highest and to set the volume half way. Can someone please guide me here.... Has anyone done this on a denon?

Second and last question...what does denon consider reference volume? In other words if I want to manually set my speaker distances and levels then what volume level should I use to get the reference 70db?

Thanks all.
_________________________
-------------------------------------
Denon 4308
M80x2,VP150,EP600,4xQS8

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#153756 - 12/17/06 11:59 AM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: Tarun]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Don't know about Denon. Havn't ever had one although I'm considering them now.

Me personally, I set the volume to 75 dbs at 0 trim to the mains with the channel adjust. Wherever the volume knob happens to be, is wherever it is.....

that's weird your sub distance is so far. My HK 745 did some pretty funky things to my set up when I tried their EZ EQ set up. I gave up on it and just set up the channels the old fashioned way with a SPL meter and tape measure.
_________________________


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#153757 - 12/17/06 12:30 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: michael_d]
Tarun Offline
local

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 295
Loc: Hillsborough, NJ
HK has dissapointed me really bad. First with that 7300 fiasco and second with the DVD 47 which will not pass proper audio using HDMI. Their firmware update for the 47 is 9 months late. Go figure. I have since gotten rid of all of my HK Gear and am now quite happy with this 2807 and my xbox hd-dvd setup. I have a cheapo LG upconverting dvd player which works great with hdmi at 1080i. I am quite content for the time being. I am waiting for Denon to release a hd-dvd dvd player with sacd etc...so we will see when they jump on that bandwagon.

Thanks.

ps. I too am considering the good ole analog spl meter and a tape measure at this point.
_________________________
-------------------------------------
Denon 4308
M80x2,VP150,EP600,4xQS8

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#153758 - 12/17/06 01:32 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: Tarun]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
I'm sharing your disappointment. This 745 is supposed to be the end all of new generation AVR's. I find it to be a rather large disappointment. The 7300 just sounded better. The 745's build quality isn't all that great and I continue to find problems as I learn how to use all it's features. Hell, I just found out that all the S-vid and composite inputs will only pass a black and white signal. If HK can't figure out what's wrong with this thing I'm going to attempt to get my money back and buy something else. Enough of the rant.....

I'm looking real hard at the Denon 4306 or a Yamaha 2700.
_________________________


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#153759 - 12/17/06 02:58 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: Tarun]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Tarun

I’m not sure but this might answer your question about the subwoofer distance.

http://www.usa.denon.com/Denon_Audyssey_FAQs.pdf

Quote:


7. My subwoofer is physically closer than the distance reported by MultEQxt. Why?
Many powered subwoofers do not provide the capability to defeat the built-in low-pass filter. These filters, by their nature, introduce additional delay in the signal and MultEQxt finds that and reports it. The optimum solution is to turn the filters off (often called “LFE mode” in subwoofers). If that is not possible, set the low pass frequency to the highest possible setting and leave the distance reported as it. MultEQxt will compensate for the added delay and time align the subwoofer to the satellite channels so that the optimum blend is achieved.





I found this when I was researching what AVR to buy.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#153760 - 12/17/06 04:27 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: grunt]
Tarun Offline
local

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 295
Loc: Hillsborough, NJ
Grunt. Thanks for the response. I read that too. I am going to attempt it when my house is quiet so I can get an accurate reading. If not I am going to the traditional spl meter and measuring plan...
_________________________
-------------------------------------
Denon 4308
M80x2,VP150,EP600,4xQS8

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#153761 - 12/17/06 04:27 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: michael_d]
Tarun Offline
local

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 295
Loc: Hillsborough, NJ
mdrew,

I understand your pain..... Good luck on your future endeavours. Keep me posted.
_________________________
-------------------------------------
Denon 4308
M80x2,VP150,EP600,4xQS8

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#153762 - 12/17/06 04:45 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: Tarun]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Quote:

I am going to attempt it when my house is quiet so I can get an accurate reading. If not I am going to the traditional spl meter and measuring plan...




Please post your results. I’m very interested since I’m also buying the Denon AVR-2807.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#153763 - 12/17/06 05:04 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: grunt]
Tarun Offline
local

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 295
Loc: Hillsborough, NJ
Quote:

Quote:

I am going to attempt it when my house is quiet so I can get an accurate reading. If not I am going to the traditional spl meter and measuring plan...




Please post your results. I’m very interested since I’m also buying the Denon AVR-2807.




Grunt.
Audesey or not, this receiver is impressive. I could go on and on about how much I love it. But lets put it this way, I gave up a HK 7300 and perhaps the 745 for this unit. I am impressed and will never go back to HK again.
_________________________
-------------------------------------
Denon 4308
M80x2,VP150,EP600,4xQS8

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#153764 - 12/17/06 07:18 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: Tarun]
maphiker Offline
buff

Registered: 09/16/05
Posts: 50
Hi all.
I have a Denon 4806. Every time I run setup, it sets my EP500 sub at 25 ft. I have been leaving it at 25 ft as per the Denon manual. I have setup the receiver using Audyssey. I have also tried changing the channel volumes and crossover, etc. Currently I am keeping everything just as it gets set by Audyssey. I also set the sub at "THX plus Mains." (Don't know if the 2807 has that setting or not). I also increase the Sub volume quite a bit to suit my taste. The way I have it now sounds pretty awsome. IMHO, I suggest you go with the Audyssey settings despite everything else you read. Listen to your system like that for a few weeks and then experiment with different settings if you wish.
_________________________
maphiker

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#153765 - 12/17/06 08:06 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: maphiker]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
In the Denon manual there is a section that explains why the actual distance and what the setup distance shows for a sub are so different, it has something to do with the internal circuits in the sub, can't remember the exact statement but it has been discussed on this forum before. Bottom line, I've found the auto setup to work great.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#153766 - 12/17/06 10:28 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: Tarun]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Tarun, as suggested in the manual, my view is that you should trust Audyssey rather than the tape measure for the sub distance setting. More factors than the simple physical distance are involved.

Most(all?)receivers use 75dB as the level of their internal test tones when setting reference level.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#153767 - 12/17/06 11:01 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: JohnK]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
I'll echo what some of the others have mentioned. My 2805 setup places my EP500 around 27ft, when in fact it is more like 12ft. The Denon manual states this is normal based on the internal circuitry of many subs.

I wish my 2805 had the Audyssey, ohhhhh upgradeitis strikes again.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#153768 - 12/18/06 09:34 AM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: SirQuack]
Tarun Offline
local

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 295
Loc: Hillsborough, NJ
Ok, I will leave the distance alone after the audessey setup. My queston then is on the ep600, I have the crossover set to bypass and the load at flat (i may be wrong on the load). Is that ok?

Thanks for all the responses.
_________________________
-------------------------------------
Denon 4308
M80x2,VP150,EP600,4xQS8

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#153769 - 12/18/06 10:09 AM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: Tarun]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
That is how I have my EP500, and will soon be getting my EP600. A lot depends on your room size. The pamphlet that came with your sub talks about the different settings. I use Bypass for the crossover and then adjust the crossover on my receiver to 80hz. I also use "Flat" as that seems to work best in my larger room.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#153770 - 12/18/06 10:49 AM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: Tarun]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
Both my brothers have room equalization features in their processors and I don't find them very accurate for low frequencies because of the long wavelengths and boundary effects. They do a better job at HF.

My rule of thumb is to measure the distance then add 3ft for every processing step. So for a vented sub located physically 8ft away, I would add 3ft for processing at the receiver and 3ft for processing at the subs DSP chip. If you have an equalizer add yet another 3ft. I have generally found that rule of thumb works well. Occasionally, depending on room acoustics, I will add another 3ft. So for your sub you may want to listen if setting distance from 14-17ft sounds any tighter or louder than at 25ft.
_________________________
John

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#153771 - 12/18/06 04:28 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: jakeman]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Ok, just an idea I had to test for the correct sub distance. If you sent a frequency that both your fronts and sub could play sufficiently loud at the same time (say crossover frequency), couldn't you just adjust the sub distance until you get the maximum SPL output? Technically this would mean that your sub and mains are perfectly in phase (at the location you're testing at), which is the goal of the whole setup thing. Sure there may be some variation as you drop to lower frequencies due to different response times of the sub and mains, but crossover is the essential one to match, isn't it? I haven't tried this myself yet, but I may when finals are over. Has anyone tried this or know if it'll work (or why not)?
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#153772 - 12/18/06 10:23 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: JasonB]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
Great suggestion Jason. Its one that I use as well to doublecheck.

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#153773 - 12/18/06 10:31 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: jakeman]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
Jakeman, not sure you've worked with this newest setup product, but it is different than previous attempts, and has some good reviews out on the net by credible sources.

Here is a good article on how it all got started by Tom Holman(father of THX) and Chris Kyriakakis. An end result of 5-6 years...

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/AudysseyMultEQ.php
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#153774 - 12/19/06 09:06 AM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: SirQuack]
Tarun Offline
local

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 295
Loc: Hillsborough, NJ
Great point of reference SirQuack.
Thank You.
I have to wait until the kids and wife are out of the house to do this test...because my room is in the basement and the running around upstairs creates its own BASS effects.

More after I run the setup.....
I am thus far happy that I went with this 2807.
_________________________
-------------------------------------
Denon 4308
M80x2,VP150,EP600,4xQS8

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#153775 - 12/19/06 10:18 AM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: Tarun]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
I can totally relate, my 2.5yr old and 8yr old son are always running around upstairs causing my ceiling mounted Sanyo Z2 to jiggle around.

I really am trying to figure out how I can sell my 2805 and get a 2807 or 3806 Denon, arrrrrggggh

I hate how technology always changes.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#153776 - 12/19/06 11:02 AM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: SirQuack]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
Thanks for the reference Randy. I found the forum discussion very informative. There are several posters including Gene who cast doubts about its effectiveness below 100hz.

"...would opt for the PEQ of your sub over what Audyssey is doing for bass. So far our experience is it either does nothing below around 100Hz (original firmware loaded in our 5805 review unit) or causes more problems than in solves (latest firmware currently undertest)."

I think it does a very good job at the higher frequencies but I've rarely seen an automated setup of bass that was optimal. Maybe the latest version addresses it, I don't know.
_________________________
John

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#153777 - 12/19/06 11:23 AM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: SirQuack]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Randy after I read that I'm getting a bad case of upgraditis, the 2807 or the 4806 are sure looking nice, isn't about that time for the new models to start rolling out?
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#153778 - 12/19/06 11:26 AM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: jakeman]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
I assume your referring to Gene from Audioholics? Funny, on the Audyssey website, he could not say enough good things about the results. Maybe they paid him, ha ha...
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#153779 - 12/19/06 11:49 AM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: SirQuack]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
He is usually pretty good though I haven't read his comments at the website. LF automatic equalization is very difficult to do because of the huge processing requirment. I find the same thing with the SMS-1 which is dedicated to sub frequency optimization. When I run automatic setup it is not that accurate. The processing power required to do LF automatically and accuratetly is beyond the chips capability.

At the start of 2005 I was thinking seriously about buying an Anthem D1 processor and for the $$s I wasn't happy that it didn't have auto-equalization. The Anthem engineers I spoke to confirmed they had looked at it but weren't satisfied that any program on the market at that time had enough processing power to do LF accuately. I suppose as chips get bigger and faster it will be less of a problem.
_________________________
John

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#153780 - 12/19/06 12:10 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: HomeDad]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Quote:

Randy after I read that I'm getting a bad case of upgraditis, the 2807 or the 4806 are sure looking nice, isn't about that time for the new models to start rolling out?




They are rolling out after the first of the year. I doubt you could get your hands on one prior to June'ish. It looks as if they are getting HDMI 1.3.

I've downloaded the 126 page owner's manual of the 4306 and so far, I'm liking it. The 4806 and 4806CI don't have much on it other than some upscaling and THX. Not real sure that's worth the extra grand.
_________________________


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#153781 - 12/19/06 06:23 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: jakeman]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
I believe this is the first product to use a fuzzy logic approach.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

Top
#153782 - 12/22/06 05:49 PM Re: Denon Audessey Setup - Subwoofer Distance [Re: SirQuack]
Tarun Offline
local

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 295
Loc: Hillsborough, NJ
Quote:

I believe this is the first product to use a fuzzy logic approach.




Fuzzy or not, , I tried it. It takes about 15 minutes to do the whole setup. I then went ahead and played Starwars III and the bass response was great.

The sub showed at about 25ft away from the main listening positions, eventhough it is about 8 ft away. I have the sub in bypass and flat.

Now then...the only real issue I noticed was that the QS8's were set to 100hz and the Back Surround QS8's at 110. The M80's and VP150 were automatically set to large.

So far it sounds great...but a few more REAL movies later I will have an accurate assesment.
_________________________
-------------------------------------
Denon 4308
M80x2,VP150,EP600,4xQS8

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