 Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / players
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OK, I've tried figuring this out online, but I seem to be missing something.
Will A/V receivers eventually be able to receive, digitally (HDMI or Optical, I guess?), Dolby True HD or DTS HD from an HD-DVD or Bluray disc? Or will I have to use the analog inputs?
To my understanding, these are both full 7.1. Will players be able to decode this at full rates and send, analog, the signal through 8 cables to a receiver?
I just want to make sure I am future proof in my next receiver purchase.
Thanks guys.
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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There is no future proof. Especially not these days.
Anyone remember when DVI was future proof?
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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I dont know the answer, but i vaguely remember seeing something about hdmi 1.3 that may have talked about multichannel audio over a single cable
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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If you have a player that is capable of decoding these audio formats (not many do currently, only the Panasonic blu-ray, and I think the Toshiba HD-DVD players), then you can use the analog outputs- but then there is the separate issue of bass managment as most receivers don't perform bass management on the analog inputs. Some do. Analog may limit you to 5.1 only (although the Panisonic Blu-ray player has 7.1 analog outs, others may follow but as HDMI v1.3 takes over, you'll probably see the analog outputs on less players).
You can also send the fully decoded multichannel LPCM stream from the player over HDMI to your receiver- but many receivers that support HDMI v1.1, don't handle this correctly.
If your player won't decode these audio formats (I have a Sony BDP-S1 that doesn't), it will just extract the DTS or Dolby Core audio stream at 1.5Mbps, but not the Dolby or DTS extension stream. This is also all it can output over the coax or optical paths (not enough bandwidth for anything more). The advantage however is you get bass management with your receiver, and 6.1 or 7.1 if the source supports it.
A third option is to send the raw bitstream direct from the player to the receiver. This requires HDMI v1.3 on both the player and receiver (2007 models should start to support this). This way, your player doesn't have to be capable of decoding the stream, but your receiver will need to have the decoders for these HD audio formats. Hopefully the new receivers that have HDMI v1.3 will also have the Dolby and DTS decoders.
This topic is confusing, as the technologies are still being refined.
*** EDIT *** One thing to clarify is that you will not be able to get the full bandwitdh of the Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD Master Audio streams over Optical or Coax, only HDMI or analog (if decoded by the player). If this is selected now, what you are actually getting is the lower bitrate core stream.
Last edited by dllewel; 01/05/07 10:04 PM.
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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>>I just want to make sure I am future proof in my next receiver purchase.>> If you are serious about this statement and don't wish to buy another reciever for a long time (5 years?) then I would suggest waiting another 6 months until the new models roll out that feature HDMI 1.3 which may (or may not) be the standard of HDMI for more than a year  Regardless, if you are looking to future proof, wait for HDMI 1.3 compatible receivers.
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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It looks like I won't be waiting for the "next best thing"!
I have resigned myself to waiting for this ridiculous format war to end, if it ever does. In the meantime, I will buy something with 7.1 analog inputs and hope for the best. I miss using my surround sound (I sold my little Denon to my Dad).
Thanks for all the replies.
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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If you have a receiver that accepts LPCM over HDMI and the player decodes and will send the discrete 7.1 over HDMI then you are ok. CES will more than likely unvail new receivers with the builtin codecs and HDMI 1.3. However, as long as the recever you have now will accept LPCM then you are really ok.
If you aren't in current need, however, we should definitely see some receivers with HDMI 1.3 unveiled at CES this year.
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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I’ve done more research on HDMI and HDMI receivers/pre amp / processors in the last two weeks than I can stand.
I know about as much about it now as I did two weeks ago. This is nothing but a moving target and when you think you understand it, it moves.
What I have learned however, and this can not be disputed, is 1.3 is not the HDMI holy grail. Anyone who thinks if they wait for 1.3 they are ‘future proof’, or even ‘safe’, is sadly mistaken and will be in for a disappointment. 1.3 comes with its own issues and bugs just like all other versions have. Don’t kid yourself thinking if you wait for 1.3 that you will not have problems. You will most likely be bitching louder than the rest of us with 1.1 HDMI equipment.
The ‘safest’ thing to do is buy HDMI equipment that works from manufactures that actually put an effort into ensuring that it does work before rolling it out the door. Some manufactures just roll their crap out with little testing and quality control and it won’t make a bit of difference if they roll it out with 1.1, 1.2, or the latest 1.3. If it has 1.3 but won’t get along with all the other HDMI equipped stuff on your rack, what good is it?? Also, don’t believe a thing you read in the manuals because they are quite illusive in describing what the unit will do. It’s best to find someone who has the same model you are thinking about buying and asking them to verify what it will do. But then you will be at the mercy of that individual’s understanding of how to configure the unit correctly. Oh yeah, good luck with getting a straight anser from tech support too. Chances are that you will be teaching them.
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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Sad, but true.  v1.3 is being waited for because you will be able to send the DTS-HD (High Resolution and/or Master Audio) and Dolby TrueHD raw bitstream over it, where you can't with v1.2. Of course, to take advantage of this the new receiver will also need to be able to decode these formats. At least this go around, the logo will either be on the front of the receiver, or it won't... giving some sign of assurance. Although the naming of the new formats will probably add to confusion here, because a consumer may not realize a receiver doesn't support these new codecs if it just says DD / DTS on it. As Mike said, talking to someone who has tried it will be the best assurance. Isn't it great we have our forums? 
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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Gotta chime in here.
Was reading a CNET review of CES 2007 and they said that they failed to see any receivers showing off hdmi 1.3. What gives? If these receivers arent at CES now then when will they hit the market....holiday 2007 or Winter 2008????
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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In another thread, we were talking about one... the Sherwood R-972, soon to be out. It looked like it had everything, including 6 HDMI v1.3 inputs and advanced codec support.
Of course, current receivers with HDMI v1.1 that are properly designed to handle 5.1 or 7.1 multichannel LPCM are up to the task of handling HD-DVD and Blu-ray audio (as long as the player can decode it).
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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Quote:
In another thread, we were talking about one... the Sherwood R-972, soon to be out. It looked like it had everything, including 6 HDMI v1.3 inputs and advanced codec support.
Of course, current receivers with HDMI v1.1 that are properly designed to handle 5.1 or 7.1 multichannel LPCM are up to the task of handling HD-DVD and Blu-ray audio (as long as the player can decode it).
I'm quite interested in this receiver. I was about to pull the trigger on a Yamaha RX-V1700 next month when I order my new Axiom speakers, but now I'm going to hold off until the new Sherwood is out to replace my exisiting receiver. Even though we don't really need HDMI 1.3 to enjoy the new audio formats, there's enough uncertainly out there to make me cautious.
Anyone out there have an idea when Axiom will start selling Sherwood's online?
"Not throwing my hands up or my dress above my ears don't mean I ain't awestruck." Al Swearengen
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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I'm curious to know where you got the info on the Sherwood R-972, it looks to be what I am looking for.
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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Found this post in one of the HDMI 1.3 threads over at the avs forum. If this is true, it's not worth holding out for an HDMI 1.3 receiver. Quote:
It has been discussed on other threads that all HDDVDs have been mastered in enhanced (or it might have some other name) mode so the TrueHD HAS to be decoded in the player. It has also been stated that no studios have plans to author any HDDVD in a non enhanced mode, so based on this even if you have a 1.3 receiver it won't be doing the decoding of the audio anyways.
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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I have seen lots of info like this recently as well, and from some very reputable people over at AVS. I don't doubt it is true.
It looks like the focus of decoding is moving to the players, mainly because of the interactive content features. As long as you have a HDMI 1.1/1.2 receiver that correctly handles multichannel PCM, you should be okay for a while.
The only thing remaining is for all the new HD-DVD and BD players to start supporting the advanced codecs. None of them will handle DTS-HD Master Audio yet, except for one that I am aware of currently. Not a big deal until things are more mainstream.
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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Quote:
As long as you have a HDMI 1.1/1.2 receiver that correctly handles multichannel PCM, you should be okay for a while.
Actually, they were saying you would be more than ok. From the thread I read there were a few people that kept saying they were holding out for 1.3. The response basically was "don't bother, 1.3 gives you nothing."
The reasoning was as follows. 1.3 mainly gives you 2 things. 1) Deep Color and 2) Uncompressed HD audio pass through.
So the next obvious question is why would I want/care about those items. I would be interested in deep color IF there was content that supported this. Unfortunately that won't be the case for a LONG time. Why? DVD doesn't support it, Blue Ray and HD DVD don't support it. They haven't worked out the dominance of either Blue Ray or HD DVD yet so there isn't likely to be another format for some time. HDTV doesn't support it and it's unlikely that OTA, Cable or Satellite will support it anytime soon.
Should I care about the audio pass through? The answer there was also no. The reason being that any titles that support "extended features" MUST be decoded by the player. They claim that very few (if any) titles will not contain "extended features" and therefore can't be decoded by the receiver.
If all this happens to be true (1 certainly is - I haven't done my own research on item 2 but no one seemed to disagree with those assertions), then HDMI 1.3 is mostly just marketing hype and has no relevence for at least the next 3 - 5 years.
Edit: Actually there is a source that will support deep color. PC and games. You still won't see any Movies etc with deep color. If you expect to want deep color from games over the next few years, then you might benefit from 1.3.
Here is a link to the thread discussing this.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=783574&page=5&pp=30
In particular look at the post by Bob Pariseau he pretty much sums it all up.
Last edited by packetlosss; 01/11/07 03:20 PM.
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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You’ve made some very good points, however there are those like myself who will feel better waiting a few months for HDMI 1.3 receivers regardless.
I’m close to purchasing and Axiom Epic 60/500 system and was going to upgrade my current 8 year old Yamaha receiver to an RX-V1700 with HDMI 1.2a at the same time. But after reading the specs on the Sherwood Newcastle R-872 & R-972 I’ve decided to wait to replace my receiver with one of those. I fully realize that HDMI 1.3 is not necessary for me to enjoy HD picture and sound to the fullest. In fact I haven’t even bought into either Blu-ray or HD-DVD because of the format war—however I am leaning toward Blu-ray. It’s just that I want to own my next receiver for as long as possible and my safest bet would be to wait until the fall for one that has HDMI 1.3. The new format is out there, it will be utilized at some point. Maybe I’ll need it, maybe not. But I don’t want any buyer’s remorse on a $1500.00 item. From all the posts on the various sites debating this topic, the one thing we can all agree on is that there’s a great deal of uncertainly regarding the use of HDMI 1.3.
So what do I loose by waiting to upgrade my receiver? Right now, only the ability to utilize 2 centre rear speakers to obtain 7.1 in my home theatre room. Since I’m using standard DVD that amounts to not much at all at this point in time. I’ll also be able to compare how much better my new Axioms are than my old Energy speakers since I’m using my original receiver. I’ll only need to purchase a 5.1 configuration now and buy the extra 2 QS8’s when I get the receiver—hopefully by then Axiom will be selling Sherwood Newcastle’s online.
What do I gain by waiting for HDMI 1.3? Arguably a couple more features. Definitely peace of mind that I’ve bought the most current version of something that cost me a lot of money and that I don’t plan on replacing for a very long time.
But I am a realist and I know how the consumer industry works. By this time next year the newest toy will be out and I’ll be wishing I could find the money to upgrade. But as I keep telling my wife, “Eventually, I’ll have it all and won’t need to upgrade.”
“Yea, right,” she always says.
"Not throwing my hands up or my dress above my ears don't mean I ain't awestruck." Al Swearengen
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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It certainly comes down to preference. When I learned what others have echoed here before Christmas - that decoding will be encouraged in the players and ability to pass LPCM correctly will be sufficient in regards to audio - I jumped on the Yamaha 2700.
I don't factor in the video very much because in most cases I'd rather not use receiver switching if I didn't have to. Like you say, there will always be something new on the horizon.
I have a rule that once I buy something I trust I got the most I could get without waiting so long that I've become a habitual fence sitter. Then I refuse to beat myself up over anything new that suddenly appears.
My M60's make me listen
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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Quote:
You’ve made some very good points, however there are those like myself who will feel better waiting a few months for HDMI 1.3 receivers regardless.
What do I gain by waiting for HDMI 1.3? Arguably a couple more features. Definitely peace of mind that I’ve bought the most current version of something that cost me a lot of money and that I don’t plan on replacing for a very long time.
If you have something that works now, there certainly is no need to rush out and get something.
That Sherwood is targeted for July/August, so it is more like 7 or 8 months.
Technology is a moving target so it's generally not worth waiting, unless there is a specific feature you need, or you don't really need to buy something.
There is nothing wrong with waiting for 1.3, as long as you know what you are waiting for. If it's deep color or TrueHD being passed to the receiver you will be dissapointed.
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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I am totally sure that deep colour, etc. is not really going to happen with the receiver. I just figure that I might as well get the most recent upgrade when I do upgrade. And boy do I need to upgrade. My current receiver is so old that it has only one optical input, no component, no HDMI, and only 5 channels. It works well with standard DVD's and singel optical/coaxial in, but that's the extent of it.
"Not throwing my hands up or my dress above my ears don't mean I ain't awestruck." Al Swearengen
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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Quote:
I am totally sure that deep colour, etc. is not really going to happen with the receiver. I just figure that I might as well get the most recent upgrade when I do upgrade. And boy do I need to upgrade. My current receiver is so old that it has only one optical input, no component, no HDMI, and only 5 channels. It works well with standard DVD's and singel optical/coaxial in, but that's the extent of it.
Also, bear in mind that unless you have a TV that also is HDMI 1.3 and supports and displays "deep color" (currently there are no TVs that do, btw) then you still won't be able to take full advantage. So long as you have a receiver that accepts LPCM and a HDDVD/BD player that decodes the 7.1 audio to LPCM, you are set for now. I know that doesn't apply to you specifically, but for others it might.
IMHO, if you aren't going to go HDMI 1.3 all the way through, HDDVD/BD - receiver - TV, then there's really no need to wait for a receiver alone.
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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Get something for today and always make sure you have an upgrade budget in mind for tomorrow. Life may otherwise become very boring and we would all have 0 posts in these forums.
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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I think we would still be posting just because the members around here are nice to chat with. 
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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Quote:
IMHO, if you aren't going to go HDMI 1.3 all the way through, HDDVD/BD - receiver - TV, then there's really no need to wait for a receiver alone.
This is my hope. Later this year I'll get a receiver with HDMI 1.3, then a second or third generation Blu-ray or HD-DVD player with HDMI 1.3 when prices drop and we have a better understanding how the format war will play out. Then in a couple of years I upgrade my current 720p LCD projector to a new 1080p one also with HDMI 1.3 and bam! I've got it all IF it's needed. The way I see it, the receiver will be the one component that I keep the longest. That's what my experience with home theatre thus far has shown me. So i'm going to wait it out a few more months--well, more likely until October/November I imagine.
"Not throwing my hands up or my dress above my ears don't mean I ain't awestruck." Al Swearengen
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Re: Dolby True HD / DTS HD with receivers / player
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Just read great summary about HDMI 1.3 Receivers over at AVSforum. I thought it was good info and would pass along here. Here is the first post from the AVS thread... Quote:
"Official" "Why you don't need HDMI 1.3" thread
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There is a lot of interest in HDMI 1.3. Many people were hoping for more of an HDMI 1.3 presence at the latest CES 2007 show in the city of Lost Wages.
This thread will (hopefully) clarify some points on why you don't necessarily need to wait for HDMI 1.3 in an AV receiver.
* You don't need HDMI 1.3 to take advantage of Dolby True HD
* You don't need HDMI 1.3 to take advantage of Dolby Digital Plus
* You don't need HDMI 1.3 to take advantage of DTS Master Audio
* While you do need HDMI 1.3 to take advantage of Deep Color, there are no imminent sources for Deep Color
* Even if you did want to wait for HDMI 1.3, there are limitations with passing on the bitstream from the player to the AVR
* 1080p is supported in HDMI 1.1; Some receivers simply did not implement it
If you want to take advantage of any of the new "high definition" audio formats encoded in HD DVD or Blu-ray soundtracks, your receiver needs one of two options. It either needs multi-channel analog inputs, or the ability to properly handle multi-channel PCM. Not all receivers with HDMI inputs handle HDMI audio. Some apparently don't handle multi-channel PCM properly. Of those that handle multi-channel PCM, some won't boost the LFE channel by 10Db which is needed for a proper LFE level. Hopefully all newer receiver models advertising HDMI audio handling will properly handle 5.1 PCM for 5-channel models, and 7.1 PCM for 7-channel models. In the meantime, please read the stickied Future Proof Receiver thread.
Deep Color is not present in any current source. Some people have speculated that it would first appear in video game consoles. Waiting for an HDMI 1.3 receiver to pass Deep Color information makes little sense until there are Deep Color sources, and displays with Deep Color.
Most people seem to know the situation with 1080p and HDMI. Just to clarify though, HDMI has always supported 1080p in the spec. In the future most or all HDMI 1.1 compliant receivers should handle it. An increasingly large number of mid level HDMI receivers are handling 1080p.
What about HDMI 1.2 and 1.2a? The most likely desire for HDMI 1.2 is to pass DSD from an SACD player directly to the receiver. The newer universal players with SACD support can output to PCM similar to how the new high definition audio formats for HD DVD and Blu-ray work. I know of no HDMI 1.2a receiver that has a built in DSD decoder. In summary all other things being equal, current HDMI 1.2a receivers are not adding any value.
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