Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo What receiver is everyone using w/ their Axioms??

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I guess it depends on what you're comparing.

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Definitely! By that same logic, I know there are some receivers out there that would be indistinguishable from separates to even those that swear by separates. Of course some of them cost as much or more than separates would as well. It's great that there are so many choices and options, to fit each of our requirements.

Well, more extended discussion here, but the facts remain the same: when power is supplied with flat 20-20KHz frequency response and inaudibly low noise and distortion, amplification is transparent, regardless of whether the unit cost $200 or $20,000. Relying on a naive "just trust your ears" type of analysis is hopeless, and when put to the only test(carefully controlled double-blind)in which the ears alone are trusted, a type of reverse-transmutation apparently occurs which turns ears of gold into tin. The classic Stereo Review blind listening test remains unchallenged(i.e. unchallenged by solid evidence, not just stubborn refusal to face reality), although common sense should tell us that manufacturers would be loudly trumpeting favorable results(later tests similarly failed). Note the sometimes flowery description of sound qualities which disappeared when the name plates and price tags also disappeared. A combination of wishful thinking and failure to keep all variables constant(especially volume level precisely held to within 0.1dB)can easily deceive us. As Dr. Toole, at an AES meeting where he spoke on the indispensibility in audio of controlled double-blind tests, commented in an intentional bit of hyperbole: "If you can see what you're listening to, you can't hear it."

Clean amplifier power is cheap and plentiful these days and can be bought by the audio consumer for very little outlay of cash. One notable example is a unit available as a factory refurb for around $150 and which has superb measurements which would be suitable for a $2,000(or $20,000)speaker system if the features are adequate for the buyer's needs. Money should be spent where it can make a difference, i.e. CDs, DVDs, speakers, and room treatments, not wasted in paying homage to old audiophiles' tales.

John, surely the Audio Deity frequents places of worship constructed of multiple, more costly buildings (i.e. separates, for the metaphorically challenged) much more often than s/he frequents utilitarian multi-purpose buildings (i.e. receivers). The more capital you sacrifice, the more favors of audio bliss are granted? Where else could the apparent improvements be coming from?

I'll put another vote in for something from the Pioneer Elite line. I have VSX-43TX. It's a few years old, and I bought it brand new but on close-out at my local true HT store a few years back. MSRP was like $999, I paid like $600 for it. It has worked flawlessly for years.

I like it quite a bit. It's only annoyance for me is the lack of on-screen setup, but all of the newer models have it now.

Interesting read. I'm not surprised that differences were hard to discern between high quality amps, but I'm surprised the Pioneer receiver did so well. I'm definitely in the category that there are differences between amps, but perhaps it does simply come down to available clean (and quiet) power (which is a product of the internals, of course). At low enough volumes, it makes sense that it would do okay, though I'd expect a higher noise floor with it that would be detectable. Perhaps not. Crank it up and things would change dramatically.

I guess my main sticking point is the blanket assumption that a cheap receiver is going to sound just as good as decent quality separates. This is simply not the case in real world use. A cheap receiver's amplification is generally quite limited. Even the modest Outlaw 7075 is going to trounce a cheap receiver's internal amps. Most people aren't going to listen at low volumes all the time in a theater environment, and having more clean power on hand is always a good thing when you want it loud.

Perhaps this was the biggest difference in the systems I compared. The separate amplifier had more reserve power and handled transients better (the test was not at low volume, though not at reference levels, either). Whatever the reason, it did sound cleaner and clearer to me. The differences I heard were not due to my imagination.

At low volumes, I have no doubt the difference is minimal. My recommendation for separates (or a more expensive receiver) is based on real world use. Throw in lower ohm speakers all around, and this argument makes even more sense.

And one of the reasons I'm normally pretty adamant about it is guys like my old neighbour... he had a fair midline system, someone put the seed of amps sounding different in his head, so he changed his Denon AVR (not such a bad idea, it was missing some newer decoding features) out... and loved the new, more in-your-face sound of the new Onkyo... for a day, until the newness wore off and he had the same complaints as the Denon. I don't know how many times he exchanged the receiver (and paid restocking fees) for other manufacturers, chasing his elusive sound, but each time, the new one sounded just like the saleman told him it would... for a day or two.

Poor guy got taken for probably $400 in restocking fees before settling on the original Onkyo and replacing his Pioneer floorstanders.

Bren R.

Buy your favorite, capable, affordable receiver right now...when you get a bug to upgrade, buy a separate amp and use the receiver as a pre/pro. When you get the bug again... replace the receiver pre/pro with a dedicated pre/pro...baby steps and you never get bored

Budget: not to sound rude or crude, but we have had discussions like these at least 2 or 3 times a year on these boards with individuals who may mean well, but simply do not have a technical understanding of what they are posting. They may be genuine and mean well, but they are just wrong.

We see it on amps. We see it on receivers. We see it on seperates. We see it on speakers. And, god forbid, we see it on speaker wire/ cable.

If the electrical specifications are the same and they are accurate, then the physics of the situation says that the performance will be the same.

Period!