Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Auditioned Klipsch what are comparable Axiom's

I just finished auditioning the Klipsch RS42 surrounds, RC62 center and RB61 bookshelf's. Would a good comparison, or maybe competition might be better, in the Axiom's be the M22, QS4 and VP150 to the above Klipsch line up? Since I've never heard the Axiom's before and the Klipsch is, from what I've been told, similar in sound, ie: bright and upfront!?

I'm trying to get a feel for the Axiom's sound to see if I want to purchase. Mind you, I was very impressed with the Klipsch speakers. I auditioned my music and a movie I'm familiar with to compare with my present speaker HT setup. In reality I only use this system for HT but I want speakers that are musically equal in performance! Compared with my speakers the Klipsch were definitely brighter but not much more dynamic! The Klipsch are probably coloring the sound due to the horns and could be conceived as almost "harsh" but not in a bad way. Since the Axiom's don't use horns I assume their highs sound more laid back.

I know what I'm asking would be better served by an actual audition of the Axiom's but don't know anybody that has them, let alone even heard of them! I just want to know if anybody is familiar with the Klipsch and what are their impressions compared to the Axiom's listed above?

Truthfully, I was only looking for a new center but I am aware that matching the fronts and center is very important. This doubles my cash outlay if I look at the M22's and the VP150. I can always add the QS4's later. Actually the Klipsch RC62 and RS42's were very impressive. The RB61's were solid performers but not in the "I gotta have these" category.

Any comments or insights would be greatly appreciated!

Check the hearing things forum for a possible audition for Axioms in your area.

I would bet you would like the set up you picked out for Axioms and yes it wouldn't be as fatiguing as the horns are on the Klipsch. I haven't heard those ones but the horns are definately 'brighter' than the Axiom tweeter.

I went with the QS8's (as when I was looking the QS4s had a different tweeter and sounded a little different but they went to the same tweeter acrross the entire line now)to go with my M22's and VP100 and the QS series is second to none for surround envelopment. The quad firing fills the rear seating area fully.

Hey Zuter, Welcome...

Yes it is important for your center and left/right speakers to be matched. This will help give you a better soundstage and seamless transition.

I had some Klipsch floorstanding RFII's at one point. A friend of mine now owns them. At the time I thought they were great, because the speakers they replaced were very cheap infinity bookshelfs.

I then upgraded to Axiom m60's, which were in a whole other league from the Klipsch's. When I decided on m60's, they were compared against B&W 703's, Paradigm Studio 7's, and NHT ???. All of the 3 above were also better than the Klipsch.

Klipsch is a good Retail type speaker in my opinion. The HORN sound is not for everyone. If you want clear, accurate, detail of your music, then I would look at a dome tweeter design.

Many people will tell you Axiom's are bright, and compare them to Klipsch. I just don't see that explanation as being true.

I currently own m80's for my mains and most likely will never change again, that is until they come out with m100's.

I would also suggest you check the audition thread to see if you can swing an audition in your area. That is all it took for me.

Also, keep in mind if you order from the factory outlet you get 10% off. In addition, all orders of 5 or more items get another 5%. This may help.

Randy

Yeah, I auditioned some Klipsch and while clear for HT found listening to them for too long they were a bit too( whatever you want to call them, bright, shrill, fatiguing, etc)

The NHT I audiitoned were more of a classic but muffled/warm sound at higher volumes. Some PSB Image series again were classic and warm, but not as clean and clear as the M22's, V100, QS8's that Jakewash let me listen to. All were good speakers, but my preferences were the Axiom, followed by PSB, NHT then Klipsch in that order. Just my tastes.

I have not wished I had the 150 but there are many here that have the 150 with M22s and they say it matches perfectly as well, If the size of the speaker is not a factor(WAF) then I do believe the 150 might be the better way to go for you, as you seem to be trying hard to avoid upgrades and those that have heard the 100 and 150 do say the bigger one is a little more dynamic, as expected with the bigger driver array and enclosure. As I said you really can't lose.

Dipole surrounds won't compare to the quad firing QS series and I hope there is someone near you that can give you an audition, Axioms really are as good as the reviews.

My wifey factor let me just upgrade to m80's and an ep600 sub.

We all perceive speaker sounds differently, so take my advice lightly. It's such a subjective thing....

Klipsch speakers sound quite different from Axiom, IMHO. I do not like their sound. I have listened to the RF-83 and RF-63 at a local home theater shop on comparable equipment to my own. Their sound was much brighter and harsher on the highs and had much more aggressive bass. Cymbol crashes, piccolo runs, etc had a piercing quality to them. At high volumes it was almost painful. On the other end, massive bass. No way would you need a subwoofer with those babies. If you want mains that can move furniture around the room on their own, they'd be a good choice. Way more bass than even my M80's, no contest.

And tht simply sums up how I would describe their sound; a valley. Massive bass with very bright, forward, and piercing highs, but less impressive midrange. There just didn't feel like there was a lot of 'substance' to the music. Lack of spaciousness, might be another description.

Axiom speakers are, above all else, balanced. Balanced highs, mids, and lows. Accurate (but not pounding) bass, rich (but not too warm) mid-ranges, and crystal-clear (but not piercing) highs. Crank em up, and they just disapear into your room and you're simply left with the music.

Try to find a Paradigm dealer. The Reference Studio 100's sound similar to M80's. Reference Studio 20's sound similar to m22's, although RS20's have more low-end. If you have a B&W dealer nearby, the 703's sound somewhat similar to M80's.

Zuter
If you really want to know how Axioms sound compared to the Klipsch, I suggest you have a look here and see if there is anyone near you that you can pm and set up an audition with. It'll take the guessing out of the equation.

Good luck - Paul

Thanks Peter

Nice description! You've explained the Klipsch sound as I perceived them, "a valley"! This is what I felt about the RB61's, which is why I knew I wouldn't purchase them. The RC62 center and RS42sats were different in that the mids were more accentuated, with the same bright highs...definitely better but...!

For me, your take on the Klipsch further strengthens your perceptions of the Axiom's sound. This is what I'm looking for in a speaker/sound. Though I'm mostly looking for an HT setup, a great sound will probably have me revisiting my music collection.

I'll look for the Paradigm RS20 speakers you've mentioned, since they are similar to the M22's. Bass extension aside, I'd be adding a balanced, "musical" sub to extend the range for HT viewing anyway! As I live in Calgary perhaps someone out there can direct me to a Paradigm dealer!?

Thanks again. You've made me a believer without even hearing the Axiom's yet!

I know the only way is to audition them directly. Only then can I make up my mind. But I enjoy the "hunt" as much as the "kill". I'm in no hurry. I want to test and listen to as many speakers and setups as I can. Since sound is so subjective, only then, can I know what will truly work for me!

For instance I went and heard the Totem's Mini's and Rainier's...Rainforest's...Reindeer's, or some such animal! Very nice sounding speakers. Big sound from tiny speakers and large price! I used my own music to listen, with emphasis on instrumentals, vocals and range. Stevie Ray Vaughn, Al Di Meola, Bowie (Ziggy), Floyd and Aaron Neville. Both speakers sounded strong, clear and with good range, the Rain...whatevers...being more impressive. I listened to them in a very large room and they seemed to fill it nicely. However, this may have to do more with the amp section, being high end separates...sorry don't recall the brand "My... somethings". At volume the speaker's disappeared leaving a nice sound stage with strong imaging and impressive mids and highs. I had the salesman run the center only and found there to be a dropout in the mid bass with lower bass holding true...design flaw I guess!?

The only real hiccup was that the right channel kept cutting out! I'm pretty sure it was the speaker cables, fiddling with them brought it back. Impressive overall but the price puts them out of the running!

[quote I'm confident that you enjoy auditioning to help others and hope your dedication is appreciated...do you hear that Axiom!?

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Axiom does, as they offer a 5% commission to anyone who holds an audition that leads to a sale.

That's very good to hear. Hopefully this will work out for both Jake and myself

You are quite welcome. Of course, we're a little biased around here towards Axiom, so you are doing the right thing by listening to *everything*. If you have a CD burner, burn a mix CD of your favorite music and take it with you when you demo speakers. I find this invaluable, as I can hear music that I have a deep and passionate understanding of, instead of just whatever-the-dealer-puts-on music. It makes a difference. As another member says, 'Trust your ears'.

In looking for Axiom-like speakers to demo, it's hard to say that brand X sound's exactly like Axiom, because very often speakers within that brand will differ in their sound qualities. For instance, B&W's 6xx line sound quite different from Axiom (they are the opposite of the Klipsch's, I would describe their sound as having a hump in the middle), but the couple of 7xx line speakers I've heard do have a bit of the 'Axiom sound' to them and are quite lovely, IMHO. That is to say, accurate and smooth. My friend's B&W 801's sound like they're on a whole different plane of existence from anything by Axiom, but then again they're $12k speakers.

With that in mind, you could try to find an Energy dealer. I have owned and listened to several Energy speakers over the years, and while I certainly haven't heard *all* of them, the ones I have heard do sound 'familiar' when compared to Axiom. Especially the Veritas and Reference Connoisseur series. Again, a relatively balanced and smooth presentation without being overly bright, warm, or heavy.

Just to make things more difficult, you could also take a look at the Onix Rocket line of speakers. Another direct-to-consumer retailer, I have never heard them but they seem to have have a pretty serious set of online groupies too. Many, many folks seem to rave about them.AV123.com I'm not going to say they're better or worse than Axiom, since I've never heard them.

I would definitely try to hook up with an Axiom owner in Calgary and listen to their setup. Even better than that would be to just buy the m22's and return them if they're not what you want. You'd only be out the return shipping cost, with Axiom's 30 day return policy.

I did hookup with an Axiom owner, jakewash, in Calgary to hear the M22's, VP100, QS8's and a sub (didn't see maker's logo). Though jakewash wasn't available to demo the system Mrs Jakewash graciously allowed me a listen. Together we fumbled through listening to music and a couple movie excerpts.

My impressions concerning the M22's for music is they are a beautiful sounding speaker. Very impressive when mated with a sub for the low end. Crisp, clean and vibrant! These are an excellent choice for music, easily on par with the Totems I reviewed in an earlier post and at half the price!

The HT portion I played Phantom Menace and Saving Private Ryan. The sound clarity was precise but I felt a little sibilant...which could probably be tamed with a little tweaking. I wasn't familiar enough with the Denon AVR to correct this so my conclusion must be taken with this in mind! Even at high volume I heard no breakup in the sound, this setup remained very clean and clear throughout the playback. Compared with the Klipsch, reviewed earlier, the Axiom's dynamics weren't in the same league, even my current setup does a better job here...again the AV-R's available "headroom" may not be sufficient for an accurate comparison. Don't get me wrong, they weren't bad, far from it, they have a good range just not as large compared to others I've heard!

The real charmers in this setup were the QS8's! Background effects had me looking over my shoulder several times! The VP100 and the M22's blended perfectly as the dialog and effects were seamless. The QS8's brought up the "rear" and matched beautifully! All in all a very nice setup!

If I were looking for a music setup the M22's would be 1st on my list. The sound and price are unmatched to anything I've listened to so far. But...you knew there was a but...I'm looking for a HT setup and right now I'll continue my search. Not that I'll eliminate Axiom from my choices, the QS8's are as impressive as the Klipsch RS52's I heard and similar in cost. Both remain as equal contenders! Also, I need speakers for my living room. Though the wife probably won't approve of the M22's, due to their size, the smaller M2's or even the M3's would be a nice addition. After hearing "Axiom's" I'm sure the smaller speaker's sound quality wouldn't differ greatly!

A big thank you to Mrs Jakewash, real name's are omitted! And remember if I do make a purchase of the Axiom's, the commission goes to the wife! Having to put up with a total stranger, "she", was the one who earned it!

I have the vp100,(under the tv) and have heard a vp150( above the tv). I felt I had noticed an improvement with the 150, and had added it to my list of upgradeitis. I was wondering if maybe it was a placement issue, but what I got out of your post makes me think otherwise. If I was to buy my center speaker over again, i would get the vp150.

Center channel placement is critical, as it is in all speakers. As long as the center points into the listening position you should be fine. I'm told the difference between the 100 and 150 is the 150 is more dynamic, having a larger enclosure and more drivers.

I've been talking to Axiom regarding my center channel choice. I was interested in the VP150 more as an addition to my current setup, which they assured me would be a good match. However, we have also been discussing using a pair of M3's wired in series as an alternative. These would provide as good as center setup, or better, than the VP150. My only concern is what that would do to the ohm rating? Running in series, or parallel, two 8 ohm speakers would make it appear as a 4 ohm speaker!? Since my AVR is rated for 8 and 6 ohm I assume that the center will work the amp much harder creating an possible overheating issue. Fine for short durations but maybe a problem over extended periods. I'm still investigating and have sent an email to Pioneer for clarification.

Once again I must apologize for not being there for the audition. A change in my plans for the weekend forced me out the door before I realized I shouldn't have been going out.

I have thanked my wife profusly and am working on ways to make it up to her, any thoughts?

Glad you were able to fumble through the Denon enough to have a listen. When I get my M60's and VP150 I will have you over and I WILL be there.

My wife said it was a pleasure to meet you and now says HI.

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These would provide as good as center setup, or better, than the VP150

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This certainly would be dependant on the listener, but being an owner of the VP150, and having had several people over who had queries about it (e.g. Jordan for one), it has always been an amazing performer and noted by all those who have had a chance to audition it in our system. The driver arrangement and size of the VP150 really encompasses a wide angle of sound before going off-axis.
I've tested this with pink noise a few times and i'm sure i looked rather silly scooting from left to right, slightly hunched trying to keep my ear level to the tweeters during the testing.

I've done sillier things in my time.

Thank you again and no problem. Axiom is very lucky to have such an enthusiastic clientiele! A big "high five" to people like jakewash who open their homes so others can experience a truly remarkable product!

A nice night out away from the hub-bub of daily chores usually works for my wife, as a suggestion. Please tell her the pleasure was all mine. You have a very lovely family and home...that and great system, who could ask for more!?

Enjoyed the system immensely...especially the QS8's! Denon was one of the AV-R's that I was considering. I chose the Pioneer 81 Elite as it was first to come on sale! Yours wasn't hard to figure out, nicely laid out with very decent sound...but hey, that's Denon! But, being unfamiliar with it I wasn't sure of your settings. Had you done any calibration? Or, even what your current settings were? Didn't want to play or mess up anything.

You mentioned "lay-away" in your pm...didn't think of that! I'll have to enquire with Axiom about this since I don't have all...most, but not all...my monies for the upgrade yet.

Keep me posted about your new system as I would definitely be interested in a listen.

Yes, both the VP150 and VP100 are still high on my list for a center channel. But one of the reasons I am looking at the two speaker setup, ie: a pair of M3's, is for placement and directional considerations. Our HT setup is in a room 20' x 11' x 7.5'. Which does well in channelling the sound to us in the seating area about 12' back. We both tend to be close to the outer 20' wall on opposite sides. If I could have the center point at us simultaneously then we'd each feel we'd have a near perfect setup. This would eliminate any "off-axis" for either of us! This twin speaker setup would, I believe, solve this problem.

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Our HT setup is in a room 20' x 11' x 7.5'. Which does well in channelling the sound to us in the seating area about 12' back. We both tend to be close to the outer 20' wall on opposite sides. If I could have the center point at us simultaneously then we'd each feel we'd have a near perfect setup. This would eliminate any "off-axis" for either of us! This twin speaker setup would, I believe, solve this problem.

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zuter,
I am trying to picture your setup and considering that you say you sit 12' back, i'm assuming that your room dimensions then are 11' wide and 20' long.
With a width of 11' in the room, you will not require some angled dispersion from two centre channels. In my old basement setup, i tested the off axis repsponse if the VP150 across a range of about 12-14' approximately 9' away. Sitting even further back will blend the forward speakers even more.
I would estimate that at a 12' seating distance, you would have to be sitting at least 15' or more apart to potentially hear a difference from left to right.

Also keep in mind that having two units for a centre channel which are aimed differently can create sonic problems of its own.

Sorry I should have been more clear but yes, 20 long and 11 wide. I figured being that far back was helping with the center/mains blending.

I currently have my centre above the plasma at 6+ feet high pointed into the seating area. My mains at ear level. This does cause some issues with the sound field but does a pretty good job of focusing the dialog/action to the display. Once I mount my plasma to the wall I'll be moving the centre down to the mains level. As you can see I'm still not done. Just trying out new ideas and thanks for the input and experience.

Another reason I'm looking at the M'3s for my center is that they are a slightly fuller range than the center's with the added bonus of being cheaper to boot! I did consider that new issues could arise from using two speakers off axis for the same channel. However I got the idea from Yamaha's "Sound Projector" speaker. They use an array of speakers, pointing off axis to create the illusion of a surround setup. Not what I'm trying to mimic but if done right could enhance the center setup...or not!? Who knows, if it works we could start a whole new fad

All I can say is that if you were at all impressed by the speakers with my terrible lay out, just imagine how much better they will sound in a proper setup.

Now I feel bad In no way would I describe your layout as "terrible"! In your den I don't know how else you could place your speakers. Ideally we'd all have great Home Theatre's that happen to come with a house Despite that, your sound was "terrific"! And one day soon, I'll have that too

Don't fell bad, I am hoping to someday turn that area into a dedicated HT and then I could get some real soundstage happening, but with my fronts just 5' apart and much higher than my listening area, not to mention my center 7.5' up and angled substantially down, it really is a bad setup, but the best I can do right now. Although it does sound really good, I know it would sound even better in a proper HT setting. Maybe even more dynamic, like you are looking for. Maybe when Hutzal finally gets his carpet in and the HT set up, we could invite ourselves over to have a listen.

After looking over your recommendations, I've found the following and listened to several both on and off your list.

Listened to the Energy Reference Connoisseur towers and bookshelf's. Very nice indeed but too pricey... bookshelf's @ $700 a pair where I auditioned them! The bookshelf was very detailed but laid back compared to the Totem Rainmakers ($1079/pair) or the Axioms M22's. I also listened to the towers ($1800). Very sweet sounding speakers but could fill out an entire Axiom system, including sub, for the price of the towers alone! I also had a go with the Energy C series. I won't go into them, suffice it to say they weren't the Reference Connoisseur's!

Checked with Onix Rocket which will allow demoing of their bookshelf's only, in Canada! Which is fine except I want to hear their center. Can't really make a decision without a listen first!

I currently have PSB's Image C40 center ($415) and B-15 bookshelf ($450/pair) on loan for home demo. Unfortunately they were out of the B-25's as this was the speaker I wanted to demo! The imaging and clarity are easily on par with the Axiom speakers I demoed at jakewash's house.

I didn't change anything in my amp for this initial test. I replaced my center and mains for the demo. The first thing I tried was the movie Jurassic Park. The opening scene where the first base note hits exposed the B-15's inability to handle strong bass. "Chuffing" or port noise was excessive...I thought I blew them up! It was clear this speaker couldn't be used for mains. I reset my mains and moved the 15's to the rears and tried again, with much better results! The opening bass was clear and strong. The C40 center highs are more pronounced compared my center. Clear, crisp and smooth. Dialog was much better focused on the display and exhibited a nice blending with my mains. They are almost spot on to my mains in the bass to mid range but exhibit brighter highs! This seemed to add, rather than distract, to the overall sound. At times I noted sibilance in the dialog. Could be the amp settings since I didn't change anything!? I could probably tame this through the amp's center channel's equalization.

I played "Sin City" with fabulous results. Very clean and clear sounding with a nice balance and blending overall. Next was "Nightmare Before Christmas". I've always found the dialog and center effects to be "soft" and "wispy". With the C40 there was a marked improvement running at similar volumes to my old center. I won't say it was louder just cleaner/clearer sounding. We watched two "new" movies, so I can only comment that the sound and dialog was very good overall!

This morning I ran the amp's auto setup and test drove the speakers for my neighbour! I replayed the opening of Jurassic Park. He commented on the dialog's clarity even with all they commotion in the "Raptor's/cage" intro! We popped in some Stevie Ray Vaughn to compare the B-15's with my speakers. The 15's sounded very good! Then we tried mine, same track, same volume...mine were fuller and more dynamic, just less "bright". Understandably so, as mine have soft dome tweeter's and the 15's are aluminum. Mine are also much larger bookself's with good bass and more laid back highs. The imaging for both are about equal. As for colouring or neutrality I can't comment. I've had my system 15 years and everything just sounds different to me!

They also have a PSB C60 center with larger drivers, 6.5" as opposed to the C40's 5.25". I'll swap out the C40 for the C60. This should enhance the center's low to mid end and it should be a closer match to my mains 7.25" driver. I'll let you know what I've found after the swap!

It be interesting to do an A/B with mine, but I am unfortunately out of town next week and I don't think my wife would be up to another session!

Yeah, I wouldn't put her through that again! An A/B with the PSB's would have been nice but I only have them until Saturday. The place where I got these said they were getting in the "G-series" soon. But at almost twice the price I would definately go with "Axiom" instead.

As mentioned in my earlier post I hope to swap the centers for the remainder of the demo week. After that I may order the VP150 for testing. One thing I've learned is this home demoing is really the only way to know for sure! Big thanks to those who've suggested this...when you're right, you're right

Update:

I've done further testing with the C40 and B-15's. But I won't bore you with the details because I just got the PSB C60 center. So without further ado...

This is a large centre. Compared to the VP150 it is 1/2" narrower in width, 1" taller and 3" deeper - if you don't count the curved front speaker panel and grill, then 12" deep! It's dual bass ported with a single 1" tweeter and 2 x 6-1/2" drivers. This proved to be a much better match to my bookshelf's 7-1/4" than the C40's 5-1/2" drivers.

I put on several Dvds that I've been testing with and the sound displayed a noticeable improvement. This blends as near perfect with my speakers as I could hope! Like the C40, the highs are still crisper than my speakers but less so with the C60. Blending of the mid/bottom end was beautiful. The front sound field seemed to envelope my display. Dialog and effects were very clear and clean! No occasional boxiness or compression compared to the C40 and particularly my old center. When played really loud, louder than I would ever listen, dialog started to sound a little artificial. A little tweaking proved to be all that was needed. The center's dynamics easily matched my speakers and perhaps a little better! I'll have to get my work's SPL meter for a proper setup. I'm not through testing but so far this center seems a winner!

I realize I'll have to upgrade my fronts and surrounds but one step at a time! I'm still hooked on adding the QS8's. The demo at jakewash's proved their worth! My only concern are it's 5-1/2" drivers. If, like the C40 issue, I experience a more pronounced mid-high to high this might prove distracting. Again tweaking might help to correct but...I wish Axiom made a larger version.

Perhaps if I can convince the wife, towers might be a possibility!? I could easily pick up PSB towers but some Axiom M60's or even 80's would make a very nice addition! I know the inherent problems in mating different speakers but if properly matched, like the center, it is possible!

I can't remember but did anyone ask you if you had room to buy one more of your fronts and just use a vertical center(ala Hutzal's 2 M3's)? Then the matching wouldn't be an issue.

Anyway, I am glad you seem to have found what you are looking for.

No, one asked but no I can't get my speaker(s) anymore anyway. I read Hutzal's post about using 2 M3's but was concerned about wiring and ohm rating. Pioneer, my amp manf., never did get back to me about this issue...actually they've never gotten back to about anything, ever!

So far, so good. The PSB C60 center seems a very, very good match to my system. Will be going down to Sounds of Music this weekend to check out Paradigm and B&W's offering's.