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Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
#164709 04/11/07 05:39 PM
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Been listening to my M80 based system and so far am impressed with everything except the VP150. In fact I am deeply disappointed in it. If I do a noise test on my LMC-1, the QS8s actually match the M80s quite well, but the VP 150 sounds muddy...like a lot of the higher range is missing. During the test I put my ears up to the tweeters on the 150. They are working but at what seems to be a very subdued level compared to the mains and the surrounds. I understand placement can make a big difference, but what I am hearing will not be affected by the placement...the sound is WAY different.

Has anyone experienced this? Am I doing something wrong? It is really bad when a voice pans from the center to one of my M80s...it goes from okay to astounding with a single pan.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164710 04/11/07 05:48 PM
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I don't own QS8's, so I can't comment on them. But I can tell you that M80's and the VP150 should sound very similar during a pink-noise test. M80's have more bass, obviously, but the mid and high range should sound darn near identical. They do on mine, anyway.

One thing you could try is to swap the VP150 and one of the M80's and do the pink noise test again. That would tell you if it's the speaker or the av equipment.

Is the VP150 brand new? It's possible that something might have come loose inside during shipping. It's happened before. Send an email or call Axiom.

Last edited by PeterChenoweth; 04/11/07 05:50 PM.

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Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164711 04/11/07 06:17 PM
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I too am very very disappointed in the VP150!
I notice a large tone difference between the M80's and the
VP150 when using pink noise to calibrate. The VP150 sounds low/muffled even at the same SPL reading as the M80's. I have an old Sapphire center that matches the M80's closer than the VP150. Dialog is terrible unless I up the center by +5, even then its more loud than understandable. I spoke to Axiom and tried all suggestions to no avail.
And I also notice my QS8's match the M80's better than the VP150?


M80s,VP150,EP500,QS8(4)
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
JonHan #164712 04/11/07 06:22 PM
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I'm on the opposite side of the fence. Placement does make a huge difference. I'm very pleased with the performance of my VP150. I do also bump up the dB's on the center channel about +3 over what I have my m80's, as most people do this anyway.


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
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Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
SirQuack #164713 04/11/07 06:25 PM
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forgive my ignorance, but what is a pink noise test?


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Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
terzaghi #164714 04/11/07 06:44 PM
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I'm super happy with my 150 for both 5.1 music and dialog during movies. Nothing but clarity for me and it seems to blend seamlessly for music. I too run it 2 or 3 db higher just to even out the dialog on some weaker DVDs. I should probably mention I have M60s not M80s but for this discussion, I think it's still a relevant comparison.

I hope you solve your problem but if not, no shame in trying something new. Happiness is what counts in the end.


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Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
terzaghi #164715 04/11/07 06:52 PM
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receiver test tones to calibrate your speakers to match.


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164716 04/11/07 07:45 PM
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get some M22s wired in parallel. Vertical bookshelf speakers are awesome as centre channels. (I have M3s at the moment)


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Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164717 04/11/07 08:36 PM
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Be sure your receiver is set up properly.

MANY receivers have options to equalize the center channel speaker. Be certain this is turned off.

As stated earlier, connect the VP150 to the Front Left channel momentarily to verify this.



M22s|VP100|QS4s|HSU STF2
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164718 04/11/07 09:21 PM
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Hi bhull,

All of the preceding suggestions are excellent, but keep in mind that if you are using a pink noise test signal to check each speaker, even identical speakers like the M80s will have a slightly different tonal signature depending on the location of each in the room.

Even when you place two identical speakers side by side, then separate them by a foot or two they will sound different with a pink noise signal. For instance, if you replaced your VP150 with a third M80, it would still sound tonally different when you fed each one a pink noise signal.

The combination of direct sounds from each speaker and reflections from the walls, floor, and ceiling, which combine to reach your ears, will vary with every location in the room, causing slight tonal (timbral) changes between each speaker.

Try repositioning your VP150 to different center locations until you can get a reasonably seamless blend between it and the M80s using music, soundtrack or dialog material.
Pink noise is an EXTREMELY CRITICAL test signal and no two speakers ever match totally with this test signal.

Remember too that every room is different--it's "the forgotten component" as an old mentor of mine used to call it.

Try different center locations and be sure to turn off any auto-EQ program that you may have running in the AV receiver/processor.

Regards,


Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert (Retired)
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
alan #164719 04/12/07 12:59 AM
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Thank you for the reply Alan.

I actually think I might have a defective VP150 in this case. I am not talking about a subtle timbre change, missing bass output or something requiring a positional change. This is a drastic change in sound quality. I am actually able to make my M80s sound similar to my VP150 by cupping my hands and covering the tweeters....it sounds very much the same. If I put my ears up to the VP150 tweeters during a pink noise test, I could hardly hear them while the M80s and QS8s were very clear sounding. Swapping output channels on the amp did not change this and it was wired correctly.

Shortly after posting the original message to this thread, HT disaster struck. I was experimenting with the volume level of the VP 150 through the menu on the LMC-1. I was standing over my 150 with remote in hand looking down at it. Overall SPL I would say was medium/low - maybe about conversation level in a room. When my volume adjustment hit +10, I heard a pop and saw a flash come out of the LPA. It shut off and I could smell burning electrical. I immediately unplugged my power conditioner from the wall and just sort of stood there staring at my amp in total disbelief.

After this happened I called Axiom and talked to JC. When I described the original problem with the VP150 (pretty much missing highs/anemic tweeter output) he agreed that there must have been something amiss as this wasn't normal for a VP150, that it should sound comparable to the QS8s.

Then being a swing shifter past his bedtime and deeply distraught that my HT basically had just blown up, I went to bed.

And here I am sipping on coffee having just woke up and have the next few days off.

Before going to bed I was sort of ready to ship everything back to Emo and Axiom and just maybe time myself out for a few weeks. 4 months of research led to what looks like a defective VP150, an M80 that was damaged pretty good in shipping, an LPA-1 that just went to electronics heaven...two days of owning the HT and having it blow up on the second day.

Of Note - I am of no means slamming Axiom or Emo. I have read enough forum posts to realize I am what seems to be a VERY rare case. Axiom had shipped a new M80 to replace the damaged one in less than 24 hours. I have no doubt that both Emo and Axiom will give me second to none customer service to resolve all these issues if I choose to do so. It is just that I am a little down and out about this whole situation right now.

...the M80s and QS8s sounded phenomenal before the LPA blew up.

Last edited by bhull; 04/12/07 01:07 AM.
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164720 04/12/07 03:07 AM
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My VP100 (and, to a lesser extent, the QS8s) sounds different from my M60s when running receiver test tones but sounds much closer when running real world signals OR a test CD.

As far as I know, the difference results from the fact that the receiver test tones are injected downstream from the bass management, ie the different rolloff frequencies will make a big difference in sound when running test tones BECAUSE the subwoofer is not intercepting and reproducing the lower notes on the center and surrounds.

I'm not 100% sure this is the case but it sure sounds that way. Does anyone know for sure ?

EDIT -- Just to be clear, you may still have a defective VP150. Things like that do happen from time to time. I did find a difference, however, between using receiver-generated pink noise and using pink noise delivered via DVD.

Last edited by bridgman; 04/12/07 03:14 AM.

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Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bridgman #164721 04/12/07 03:24 AM
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Quote:

My VP100 (and, to a lesser extent, the QS8s) sounds different from my M60s when running receiver test tones but sounds much closer when running real world signals OR a test CD.

As far as I know, the difference results from the fact that the receiver test tones are injected downstream from the bass management, ie the different rolloff frequencies will make a big difference in sound when running test tones BECAUSE the subwoofer is not intercepting and reproducing the lower notes on the center and surrounds.

I'm not 100% sure this is the case but it sure sounds that way. Does anyone know for sure ?

EDIT -- Just to be clear, you may still have a defective VP150. Things like that do happen from time to time. I did find a difference, however, between using receiver-generated pink noise and using pink noise delivered via DVD.




Gunshots, voices and other effects were drastically different when they would pan from center to any other speaker. It would loose all its higher dynamic range.

I guess the best way to explain it would be during the matrix lobby scene where the guns were panning to all the speakers. The M80s and QS8s would all sound almost real, the VP150 sounded like I was running it wrapped up in foam in a large cardboard box.

Of course I am dead in the water right now with my amp being fried. I wonder if maybe the amp cooked the speaker's crossover or maybe the speaker has a shorted crossover and cooked the amp. Either way we will never know since both seem to be in less than working order.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164722 04/12/07 01:19 PM
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Bhull,

From your description, there is a possibility that your VP150 is faulty. Among the things that can happen (rarely) in shipping are dislodged push-on speaker connectors inside the enclosure. If it were the latter, the driver(s) would either work or not, and you could easily check by removing each driver from the front baffle and ensuring that the connectors are secure. Once in a while the crossover board may develop a crack from blows during shipping and that might lead to intermittent operation of some of the drivers. It's really rare, but it has happened.

There have been reports of channel failures and shutdowns of Emotiva amps on these boards and elsewhere, and I have one acknowledgment from a professional engineer and reviewer that the Emotiva amps have had "issues" with channel failures in the past.

If you return the VP150 (arrange that with JC), we can do a forensic examination at our lab and determine if there was an inherent problem with the drivers and/or crossover.

I really regret you've experienced this with your first home theater system and I assure you Axiom will set things right at no cost to you.

Regards,


Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert (Retired)
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
alan #164723 04/12/07 05:06 PM
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Amazing how a company can (if they choose to) turn a very big negative into ultimately a big positive. It really is unfortunate it had to happen, but if humans are involved at any level there is always a chance, however small, that bad things can occur beyond anyone's real control.

I'm sure you will be ultimately very very happy with your VP150 and your axiom HT experience in the near future.

Hope things go well with the receiver. That is some serious A/V bad luck to have happen all at once.

Last edited by KC23; 04/12/07 05:07 PM.
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
alan #164724 04/12/07 08:10 PM
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Quote:

Bhull,

From your description, there is a possibility that your VP150 is faulty. Among the things that can happen (rarely) in shipping are dislodged push-on speaker connectors inside the enclosure. If it were the latter, the driver(s) would either work or not, and you could easily check by removing each driver from the front baffle and ensuring that the connectors are secure. Once in a while the crossover board may develop a crack from blows during shipping and that might lead to intermittent operation of some of the drivers. It's really rare, but it has happened.

There have been reports of channel failures and shutdowns of Emotiva amps on these boards and elsewhere, and I have one acknowledgment from a professional engineer and reviewer that the Emotiva amps have had "issues" with channel failures in the past.

If you return the VP150 (arrange that with JC), we can do a forensic examination at our lab and determine if there was an inherent problem with the drivers and/or crossover.

I really regret you've experienced this with your first home theater system and I assure you Axiom will set things right at no cost to you.

Regards,




Alan, again thank you for chiming in.

I just had to walk away from it for a day. I am not going to return everything and listen to movies through my 10 year old Aiwa bookshelf system again...the M80s already spoiled me in the short time I was able to listen to them

I got off the phone with Lonnie from Emo a little bit ago. He assured me that even a dead short on the speaker output terminals should not have killed an LPA-1. He thinks some component inside was defective. They are shipping a new amp out tommarow and emailing me a shipping label for the old one. So hats off on them living up to their customer service reputation.

After finishing this reply I will call JC and get a new center channel shipped.

I actually just now got off the phone with a buddy talking about this whole situation. Looking at this with fresh eyes I think the shipping company is what really did a number on my gear. The EMO boxes by coincidence showed up on the same day as the speakers on the same truck. And what do we have, 7 boxes arrived, 1 M80 box had a good size hole in the side of it, but that speaker had no obvious damage, the other M80 had no obvious damage on the box, but the corner of the cabinet looked like someone dropped the thing from several feet up, the VP150 is defective from what might have been rough handling in shipping, and the LPA-1 blew up. Hmmm, 7 boxes from 2 different companies....all arriving on the same truck....yeah I think I can attribute all this to mishandling and it is unfortunate that Axiom and Emo will have to take a hit on shipping costs and warranty replacement because some careless worker threw my stuff around....I am being a little speculative here, but it just seems to be too much of a coincidence.

In any case, both companies have been SUPER cool in dealing with all this...and I think they have earned a customer for life...you know most places want you to sent a product back first and they have to have it in hand before sending you a new one...Emo and Axiom don't do this...There is another M80 in the mail right now, an LPA will be in the mail tommarow and if Axiom performs again like they did with the M80, there should be another VP150 in the mail within 24 hours.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164725 04/12/07 08:27 PM
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It is good to hear that you are being taken care of. My hat is off to Axiom and Emotiva for resolving these matters.

Now onto more important things...




*Michael*
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Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
richeydog #164726 04/12/07 09:09 PM
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Quote:







LOL, ok here you go

Here is the damaged box, this speaker has no obvious damage to it despite the hole








And here are a few pics of the other M80 which had a number done on it. The first one was before I took the bag off. You can see the top left where the bag is punctured through.





On this last one, I put a small piece of the veneer on the top of the speaker.



Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164727 04/12/07 09:40 PM
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I just re-inspected the box of the damaged speaker and found this on the bottom.. Now the M80s were packed updside down, so you open the top of the box, flip it over and pull the box off and you have a right side up speaker.



And here is the foam.




Without a doubt this thing was dropped or impacted very hard in shipping. God only knows what the rest of my gear experienced.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164728 04/12/07 09:53 PM
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And last but not least, the VP150 box




Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164729 04/12/07 10:57 PM
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I've got the VP100 center and it also sound different than the M60's and QS4's on test tones. However my tweeter is working, but I am actually experiencing something different that bothers me. I get almost a scratchy sound in a lot of dialog. To minimize this I have to set my crossover for the center at 120. Anything below this and dialog is just bad. I'm seriously considering sending it back to be checked out.

Bill3508

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
Bill3508 #164730 04/13/07 12:45 AM
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I have heard that scratchy sound before. It's either something wrong with the voice coil or you're playing WAAAAY too loud. See if you can stand close and identify which driver the noise is coming from, then give Axiom a call.

I bet you'll find the noise comes from just one of the midrange/woofer drivers, making it easy to fix.

Last edited by bridgman; 04/13/07 01:14 AM.

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Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bridgman #164731 04/13/07 12:48 AM
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Quote:

I have heard that scratchy sound before. It's either something wrong with the voice coil or you're playing WAAAAY too loud

See if you can stand close and identify which driver the noise is coming from, then give Axiom a call. I bet it's just one driver.




It does this at any volume level on normal dialog.

Bill3508

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164732 04/21/07 08:15 AM
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I just thought I would post an update.

Both the replacement M80 and VP150 have arrived. Both boxes one again looked like they had been through hell. The 150 had a large tear in the side. When I first got it, I thought "here we go again".

Fortunately, neither speaker has any asthetic damage on them. I don't know where all this damage is occurring in the shipping process, but I think it reasonable from the standpoint of the company and the customer to expect a package to arrive without any major physical breaches. The VP150 had a good 6 or so inch tear on one of the sides. It would seem the shipping company could do with some improvements in their process.

In any case, the speakers are in my living room and look great. I can't wait for the new Emo amp to get here so I can listen to more stuff in full surround.

** Edit **
I just wanted to add that I believe that Axiom is providing adequate packaging with these speakers. Under 'normal' shipping ocnditions there would be no issues. I believe these recent shipments have had 'abnormal' amounts of abuse in the mail.

Last edited by bhull; 04/21/07 08:25 AM.
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164733 04/21/07 03:37 PM
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Bhull, glad things worked out for you. Shipping damage is no fun to deal with. Thankfully there was no harm done to the speakers.


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Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
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I work work for one of the shipping companies Axiom uses and it is a miracle the freight makes it through with out more damge to it than it receives. WE are currently cramming 300+ packages onto a 16' cargo area. The conveyor lines get backed up and boxes literally get pushed off the line to clear the jam. I have seen boxes fall from our overhead conveyors because of a jam(no one touched them to mak them fall) before the lines were stopped. In my opinion anyone who ships needs to pack their stuff to fall from this 12' height not 3-4 as they get told.


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Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
jakewash #164735 04/23/07 02:15 AM
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Quote:

I work work for one of the shipping companies Axiom uses and it is a miracle the freight makes it through with out more damge to it than it receives. WE are currently cramming 300+ packages onto a 16' cargo area. The conveyor lines get backed up and boxes literally get pushed off the line to clear the jam. I have seen boxes fall from our overhead conveyors because of a jam(no one touched them to mak them fall) before the lines were stopped. In my opinion anyone who ships needs to pack their stuff to fall from this 12' height not 3-4 as they get told.




wow.....note to self

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
jakewash #164736 04/23/07 03:49 AM
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Unfortunatly, that's a fact with all shipping companies doing any large amount of volume, there are UPS facilities that push 50,000 packages an hour through their systems, if they process 160,000 packages and only have 3 or 4 major damages (meaning parcels that are destroyed) that is an acceptable % to them, unfortunatly there are a greater amount of damaged items that go out because the boxes are still intact. That's why when I ship I package the stuff like it's going into a war zone.


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Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
HomeDad #164737 04/23/07 03:54 AM
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I hear you there. When I boxed up my SVS for shipment to Texas a few months ago, I didn't have the original packing contents, so I had to get creative. (After all, I didn't want negative audiogon feedback on my first transaction!) While my outer box may not have been beefy enough, I put so many layers of protection inside that box you probably could have stabbed it with a Ginsu knife multiple times without damaging the sub. Drop kicks from 12' are a different story, though.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
jakewash #164738 04/23/07 09:41 AM
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Quote:

I have seen boxes fall from our overhead conveyors because of a jam(no one touched them to mak them fall) before the lines were stopped. In my opinion anyone who ships needs to pack their stuff to fall from this 12' height not 3-4 as they get told.




This would be completely consistent with the damage that was on the M80. I couldn't believe a fall from even 4' would cause what happened since the corner was completely packed in the foam. From 12' however, seeing the shipped weight is like 50 or so pounds for each speaker would definitely do it. You could tell the thing was dropped right on its corner.

I understand things happen when you are pushing that volume of packages through, but it would be nice if they reported and returned packages that have been wrecked.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164739 04/23/07 03:32 PM
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Quote:



I understand things happen when you are pushing that volume of packages through, but it would be nice if they reported and returned packages that have been wrecked.




If the package is fully broken open, then yes it is pulled and sent back or the sender called and asked what they would like done as the contents are quite often inspected for damage. As in your case with a broken corner on the box or something like that, the package is sent on its way and can be refused at the delivery point for the damage.

I would guess due to the size of the M80's they are not sent on the conveyors so what happens is the boxes are hand picked and dropped(literally) into cages for processing. Usually the people doing the lifting have the boxes on their shoulders and then drop/toss them into the cage. If Axiom were to double the weight of cardboard they use for packaging most of the damage would be prevented, at least on the bigger items. There is also a good chance your speakers were loaded on to an upper shelf in the truck and they simply fell off onto the floor before delivery. It's not a good practice but we are constantly adjusting the way things get done. There are signs every where to remind workers to handle the freight as if it were their own but night shift workers on a loading dock are not the cream of the crop.


Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
jakewash #164740 04/24/07 04:02 AM
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Bhull, I ran into the same shipping problem you did.

One of my M-60 boxes had a huge hole in the side of the box when I got it. I open the box up and find some serious cosmetic damage to the speaker. I took pictures and e-mailed Axiom the next day. Customer Support promptly responded with the tracking number of my new speaker guaranteed for arrival the next day.

The next day I show up at the shipping company, and the new speaker had another hole in the SAME EXACT SPOT! Unbelievable. I opened the box up in front of the employees and told them I was refusing delivery.

Again I e-mailed Axiom and they shiped me my third speaker using a different company.

Third speaker showed up in perfect condition. You may want to ask Axiom to use a differnt shipping company.

I'm sure you'll be more than happy in the end.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
TrueFX #164741 04/24/07 07:52 AM
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Quote:

Bhull, I ran into the same shipping problem you did.

One of my M-60 boxes had a huge hole in the side of the box when I got it. I open the box up and find some serious cosmetic damage to the speaker. I took pictures and e-mailed Axiom the next day. Customer Support promptly responded with the tracking number of my new speaker guaranteed for arrival the next day.

The next day I show up at the shipping company, and the new speaker had another hole in the SAME EXACT SPOT! Unbelievable. I opened the box up in front of the employees and told them I was refusing delivery.

Again I e-mailed Axiom and they shiped me my third speaker using a different company.

Third speaker showed up in perfect condition. You may want to ask Axiom to use a differnt shipping company.

I'm sure you'll be more than happy in the end.



Was it DHL? If so, that doesn't surprise me. They muck things up worse then UPS, if that's even possible. lol

Thankfully, it was just the boxes that arrived mucked up, my speakers were fine minus a broken peg on one of the M80 grills. Called Axiom and they took good care of me, as always. Still to this day, I can't say enough good things about Axioms speakers and their top notch customer service.

However in all fairness, I know quite a few people have had nothing but good experiences with DHL. Unfortunately for me, I'm not one of them.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
Sutter Cane #164742 04/25/07 04:21 AM
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Another update

My LPA-1 showed up today. It is sitting in my living room still in the packaging...didn't get it until I had to leave for work.

I will hook up everything in the morning and fire it up to hopefully 5 fully functioning speakers.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
jakewash #164743 04/25/07 10:52 AM
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I got my M80s, vp150, and QS8s a week ago. DHL delivered. There was no damage at all to the speakers and some minor tears on the boxes. The biggest issue is that they left 2k dollars of speakers in my open carport without a signature, even though it is required. Anyone could have seen and taken them. I have limited experience with DHL, but I would suggest that they don't care and maybe are even resentful of delivering heavy expensive speakers.

Last edited by hughmcjr; 04/25/07 10:53 AM.
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
hughmcjr #164744 04/25/07 11:48 AM
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After a couple failed attempts at delivery -- I'm still convinced they were trying the wrong address -- I had DHL hold my EP500 at their facility so I could retrieve it myself. Luckily it's only a 20 minute drive from my house. When they wheeled it out of their warehouse, the box had a huge gash is the middle of one of the faces, so either the box fell onto another box, or vice versa. No damage to the EP500, though.

EP500 & DHL*?@#_*!
pmbuko #164745 04/25/07 12:36 PM
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I thought my delivery problem to South Louisiana was unique, but after reading this thread, may be time to try the other guys in the delivery deptartment!

DHL set my EP500 by my back door (no knock or doorbell...thus, no signature), bottom side up! The box sealing tape on the bottom was shreaded to hell and the 8 holding staples on the bottom were Gone (sub was open to the world)!! The top of the box, which had now become the bottom, wasn't in much better shape! There was a slight gash to one side, but no breach to the overall container! How or why the sub never fell out of the opened box over it's 2000+ mile treak is beyond me!!!? I complained directly to DHL, suggesting they pushed the container on the highways all the way from Canada!

But the good news is that the great packaging of the sub by Axiom (dense, thick foam w\ 4" air gape surrounding the sub from box walls) protected it from any damage, cosmetics were perfect and so is it's performance!

Ted

Last edited by Theo; 04/25/07 12:39 PM.

Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
jakewash #164746 04/25/07 02:03 PM
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SutterCane, good guess. It was DHL.

Maybe Axiom is reading this thread and will consider changing shippers as this issue seems to be quite common.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
hughmcjr #164747 04/25/07 02:40 PM
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Quote:

The biggest issue is that they left 2k dollars of speakers in my open carport without a signature, even though it is required. Anyone could have seen and taken them. I have limited experience with DHL, but I would suggest that they don't care and maybe are even resentful of delivering heavy expensive speakers.




The first delivery came in 2 parts, a single QS8 (left on my front porch) and then the rest. The guy rang the doorbell and I was asleep, woke up and brought everything in. He had most of it unloaded already before I got to the door.

The replacement M80 I found on my front porch after waking up and heading out for work. Opened my door and found an M80 box staring at me. The same thing happend for the replacement VP150.

I found the LPA-1 sitting in front of my garage today.

I have had about $5000 worth of gear shipped here if you include all the replacement stuff. I have not signed for a single thing and everything was just left in front of my house for the taking. Thank God I will be home for delivery of my VTF3 tommarow.

I wonder if there are some sort of shipping alternatives available, like specifyig pickup at the shipper so the packages can be inspected and signed for, and if you do accept it, maybe a way to annotate the damage if any.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164748 04/25/07 03:41 PM
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My M80s were shipped by DHL (they left off my apartment number, but at least there's only 3 units in the building). There was some damage to the boxes, but at least the guy brought them inside so my pregnant wife didn't have to lug them around.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
Ken.C #164749 04/25/07 07:55 PM
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There is definitely a pattern of neglect here that seriously needs to be addressed. The damage to the boxes is unacceptable at best. Second and maybe more important to Axiom and even DHL is that anyone could claim they never received their speakers if they didn't sign.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164750 04/26/07 07:49 AM
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Quote:

I wonder if there are some sort of shipping alternatives available, like specifyig pickup at the shipper so the packages can be inspected and signed for, and if you do accept it, maybe a way to annotate the damage if any.




You can have the sender ship the items "hold for pick up" and the packages should be at the depot waiting for you, at least where I work.

I know Fed Ex and UPS drivers are not to return to the depot at the end of the day with anything on their trucks, so they just drop the stuff off and away they go. The courier companies end up taking a loss on the shipping if the parcels go out for redelivery on a truck.

So far as the damage goes, usually the heavy items should be placed at the bottom of a 9' high block load of packages in the trailers, so it is conceivable that the boxes simply burst open from the weight, then get torn open further from rough handling. I agree this isn't acceptable, but the view of the shipping companies is that any damage is the fault of poor packaging. The insurance clause on the waybills is only if the item is lost, not damaged.


Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: EP500 & DHL*?@#_*!
Theo #164751 04/26/07 08:00 AM
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Quote:

I thought my delivery problem to South Louisiana was unique, but after reading this thread, may be time to try the other guys in the delivery deptartment!

DHL set my EP500 by my back door (no knock or doorbell...thus, no signature), bottom side up! The box sealing tape on the bottom was shreaded to hell and the 8 holding staples on the bottom were Gone (sub was open to the world)!! The top of the box, which had now become the bottom, wasn't in much better shape! There was a slight gash to one side, but no breach to the overall container! How or why the sub never fell out of the opened box over it's 2000+ mile treak is beyond me!!!? I complained directly to DHL, suggesting they pushed the container on the highways all the way from Canada!

But the good news is that the great packaging of the sub by Axiom (dense, thick foam w\ 4" air gape surrounding the sub from box walls) protected it from any damage, cosmetics were perfect and so is it's performance!

Ted




I, too am in South LA, Slidell to be exact, but no one knows where that is - it's just easier to say New Orleans. My shipment arrived all at once, required a signature, and like most of the comments here, I had a couple of damaged boxes. The EP500 had a huge gash in it as did an M80 box, but due to Axioms packing technique, there was no cosmetic damage whatsoever. I did wind up with a loose connection on the sub that took all of 5 minutes to correct.
Other than that, even a pink noise test was fairly uniform throughout the 7.0 system. The first time I heard a test tone from the 0.1 portion I honestly thought it was an earthquake! My last surround system didn't have a test tone for the sub, so I was quite surprised when it hit.

Scott


Scott

My HT
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
jakewash #164752 04/26/07 08:30 AM
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Quote:


I know Fed Ex and UPS drivers are not to return to the depot at the end of the day with anything on their trucks, so they just drop the stuff off and away they go. The courier companies end up taking a loss on the shipping if the parcels go out for redelivery on a truck.





So then whats the point of a "Signature required" delivery if they are going to leave it at the delivery location regardless of if you are there or not?

Quote:


So far as the damage goes, usually the heavy items should be placed at the bottom of a 9' high block load of packages in the trailers, so it is conceivable that the boxes simply burst open from the weight, then get torn open further from rough handling. I agree this isn't acceptable, but the view of the shipping companies is that any damage is the fault of poor packaging. The insurance clause on the waybills is only if the item is lost, not damaged.




I don't think this is the case here. My stuff didn't burst open from being on the bottom. If you go back and look at the photos I posted, it it quite obvious the M80 was dropped on its corner from quite a distance up. And for being torn open from rough handling, I don't see how a company can take that into account and pack for it. How do you pack something up expecting it to be torn open in shipping? I feel it is the responsibility of the shipping company to at least handle these deliveries with a minimum of care as to prevent serious breaches in the container.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
bhull #164753 04/26/07 03:08 PM
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Quote:

So then whats the point of a "Signature required" delivery if they are going to leave it at the delivery location regardless of if you are there or not?




For UPS on a signature required delivery, the parcel always has to be signed for. On a normal parcel delivery if you live in a area that is considered to be fairly safe the drivers can DR (driver release the parcel).
UPS as well as Fedex will pay for packages lost or damaged on delivery.
I had 25 years working in that industry, from what I have seen and in my own experience, on a consistent basis nobody handles parcels worse than DHL.


A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
HomeDad #164754 04/26/07 06:38 PM
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Interesting. I had a mixed experience with DHL.

The good: My speakers actually came a day early. The driver explained that he saw them there at the depot waiting to be put on the truck. He saw that they were for delivery tomorrow, but thought he had better get them on the truck sooner than later since they seemed to be some really nice stuff. Very nice driver, not the surly type you get from time to time.

The bad: Large gash in the side of one of the M60 boxes. I'm talking about a gash so large I could fit my hand through it to inspect the side of the speaker without opening the box. It seems that the "gash in the side of the box" is a recurring theme with DHL. Luckily nothing was damaged.


Ken. VaSSallo Series M60v2, VP100v2, QS8v2 SVS SB12-Plus
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
Krich #164755 04/27/07 01:46 PM
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I too had a huge problem with DHL with my order. More then one box was damaged - one speaker was scratched as well. DHL was horrible to deal with - then again, I've always had a problem with them in my area. I prefer Fed-Ex (Personal opinion, and a good track record im by area.) It all comes down to your area, and people who work in the given place. My EP-600 had gash in the box large enough to stick both my hand in. The sub was fine however, but I cringe at the thought if had been raining.
Meanwhile the rip in my M80 box was clearly done by a fork lift which had gone far enough to scratch the speaker cabinet. All these problems and yet I had received a shipment of Axioms for my brother just a week previous without a flaw. Like I said, it's all up the people handling the shipment. DHL however was so rude in dealing with this problem - to shut me up the sent me a prepaid 1 lb envolope to use anytime I wanted. Obviously piss, I used to send a peice of my cat's shit (neatly placed in a zip-lock bag) to the head of customer services apologizing in advance if the zip-lock bag had broken it was due to their poor handling. ...I never heard from them.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
alan #164756 04/27/07 02:17 PM
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Oh bugger, I knew that $200 credit was too good to be true.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
ditcin #164757 04/27/07 02:17 PM
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Quote:

... Obviously piss, I used to send a peice of my cat's shit (neatly placed in a zip-lock bag) to the head of customer services apologizing in advance if the zip-lock bag had broken it was due to their poor handling. ...I never heard from them.




Wow, did you really do that?


The sailor does not pray for wind, he learns to sail. --Lindborg
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
ditcin #164758 04/27/07 04:38 PM
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Quote:

I used to send a peice of my cat's shit (neatly placed in a zip-lock bag) to the head of customer services apologizing in advance if the zip-lock bag had broken it was due to their poor handling. ...I never heard from them.




The way they handle packages, the envelope was probably torn in transit...leaving fluffy's steaming turd on the floor of someones shipping truck. The head of CS probably got the half of the envelope with the mailing label and nothing inside.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
JaimeG #164759 04/27/07 06:42 PM
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JamieG,
Yes, I reallly did it. My only disapointment was I never heard anything about it. At the very least I was hoping to vent to someone who got as upset as I was when dealing with their customer service.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
ditcin #164760 08/04/07 01:37 AM
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I came across this post and wanted to find out if your new VP150 sounded any better. I am currently going through your problem with the vp150 pretty much verbatim. I noticed dialogue sounded really muffled and not detailed, And Ever since i got the speaker it sounded different from the rest doing pink noise but i figured that was just because it was voiced differently or something, Until i got back from vacation and watched a movie and got so frustrated with the sound i just ended up setting it to phantom center channel and was able to enjoy the rest of the movie.

I took the speaker apart to try and find the problem and a couple components in the xover appear as though they had gotten quite hot, Which im not totally sure how because I havent ever had the theater up at levels I consider to be unreasonable. And to my knowledge either has anyone else.

Upon further trying to diagnose the problem with a toner i found out one of the midrange drivers wasnt working so i took it out and Axiom has already sent me a replacement but that still didnt help my original problem. Like you say my tweeters DO work but unless i have my ear right next to them its hard to hear anything over the midrange drivers.

I hooked the center channel up to an amp and just played music through it and honestly i would have rather listened to my alarm clock radio because it sounds soo dull and muddied and like you said, wrapped up in a cardboard box.

Im not sure if this was a defect from the factory or something else that happened while i was gone for nearly a month or what but I never was really satisfied with the vp150, looking back i wish i had just gotten a 3rd M80 for the center channel. I didnt remmeber being very dissapointed before with the speaker, only when i returned from vacation did it really start to bother me. I didnt even notice one of the midrange drivers wasnt working until i had the speaker apart and put a signal to each driver seperatly.

Im starting to wonder now if when i return the Vp150 for diagnosis if i should just try and trade it for an M80 instead since most people arent really that happy with the vp150 anyway. I even started to wonder if there was really anything wrong with mine after doing some reading on here but theres just no way axiom would sell a speaker that sounds that bad. Just no way.

Oh and then i went and did the stupidest thing of the week, Went and jacked up one of my M80 tweeters while taking it out to test the vp150 tweeter with some music vs just the toner to further check the drivers. So I just left the nice unsmashed tweeter in my beloved M80's and put the smashed one back in the center since its gonna stay with the house when we sell it anyway, whereas my 80's are coming with me. So now I have a Vp150 with a dented tweeter (which still works fine) that sounds like its wrapped in a blanket in a carboard box

Last edited by Haoleb; 08/04/07 01:45 AM.
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
Haoleb #164761 08/04/07 02:10 AM
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Hi Brandon,

I can tell you that my VP150 works great. All of my drivers work and Patricia Barber comes through like she's in my basement.

What do you mean by "a couple components in the xover appear as though they had gotten quite hot"? Can you post pictures?

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
Mojo #164762 08/04/07 02:26 AM
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The air core inductor as you can see has melted the plastic forming shell thing, and you can kinda see in the pics that the enamel is much darker than the iron core. Also you can see the hot glue around the one resistor has gotten hot enough to turn it brown.

I also tried measuring the electrolytic capacitor on my DMM but only got an OL, Im not sure if the cap is bad or if its because of the rest of the circuit components. I didnt take it out because of all the glue. And my DMM can read caps with much higher values no problem.





Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
Haoleb #164763 08/04/07 03:07 AM
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How did you try to measure the capacitor? Do you have a capacitance setting on your meter?

The plastic bobbin doesn't look good, I agree, but this is just poor manufacturing quality control. Functionality/performance is not affected.

Actually, now that I think about it, whatever method they use to apply the glue could have very well caused this kind of damage. And maybe the electrolytic got affected too.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
Mojo #164764 08/04/07 03:25 AM
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my meter has a capacitance function.

The inductor wasnt melted by the hot glue it was obviously melted from too much current through the inductor, As you can see its only melted in the places where the wire is, And you can tell by the way it has been formed around the wire that it was melted due to that.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
Haoleb #164765 08/04/07 03:48 AM
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I don't trust cap meters. If you really want to do this, you have to remove at least one cap lead. It's probably easier to just remove the cap if you really want to get into that.

The other thing you can try is measuring it on the high Ohms scale. You should see the cap charging if you apply the leads in the proper polarity. The resistance should increase until it gets up near infinity. If it's shorted, it will never charge. If the resistance is infinite immediately, then it's open. It's leaky if the resistance is low.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
Mojo #164766 08/04/07 04:10 AM
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Ive actually found this fluke meter measures capacitance quite well. My old cheapie one on the other hand well... no.

measures from 1nf to 9999uf. Axiom is fixing the problem so Im not going to bother with disassembling the xover. But I am utterly sure thats got to be the problem because I have already tested all the drivers after having first narrowed out all other equipment and settings. Theres nothing else it could be.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
Haoleb #164767 08/04/07 04:14 AM
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Let us know how it turns out, ok?

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
Haoleb #164768 08/04/07 05:16 PM
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Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
One faulty component does a bad speaker not make.
Yoda say bad speaker not.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
chesseroo #164769 08/04/07 06:20 PM
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I never said they were bad speakers, If I didnt like them I wouldnt have chose them again when it came to getting speakers for the 7.1 theater, Or continue to reccomend them.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
Haoleb #164770 08/16/07 11:48 PM
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We'll Axiom sent me a brand new speaker, and All is well! Actually I think its better than its ever been. I also ordered the FMS CC stand for the center which I am also very happy with. I would reccomend this stand to anyone with an axiom center because its made for them vs just some generic speaker stand. I was a bit worried about how stable it would be but its very stable!

I did an A/B comparison between my old center and the new one and theres definetly something really wrong with the old one. Originally I was told I needed to send my old one back to get it fixed. At my cost. But then Andrea PM'd me and asked if I would be ok with them sending me a brand new one and returning the old one prepaid. Axiom service comes through again!

I took some pics of our dedicated theater but i'll post those in a new thread for ya'll to drool over.

Re: Why do my QS8s sound better than my VP150?
Haoleb #164771 08/17/07 03:00 AM
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Hey, I'm glad it all got worked out.

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