Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Pioneer Blu-ray. Results.

Ok folks. I own a 50" Elite plasma pro1000HDI. And this is what we have in the media room. I also have a Panny 42" plasma that we keep in the main family room. I have loved both TV's but the Elite's picture (even though it's 3 years old but only used a few hours a week) is just spectacular. I had been debating about getting the Pioneer Blu ray player but this guy I know had been telling me that i would be wasting my time unless my Elite was 1080p, mine is 1080i. I thought well I'll get it and if the picture stinks I'll just take it back. I am pretty familiar with HD just because of the directv HD DVR that I have and audiophile friends that have either HD or Blu Ray DVD's. So I hook it up through my Integra DTR 7.7. Now as far as I know this Elite is not 1080p but when I put in Casino Royale I was just blown away at how good it looked. My friend came over and he himself owns an Elite 1080p plasma and he almost seemed mad (everyone knows these kinds of people)because it looked so good. Yes I know I'm not getting the full benefit of 1080p but I also know it's not just in my head due to the fact I replaced it with a Sony 999es DVD which by anyone's standards is pretty darn nice. So if anyone in my situation feels they wont get a beautiful experience I say give it a shot. I couldn't be happier. Again, I know people out there will say "Man just wait till you get a nice 1080p display, then you'll really know", which is the case in some AV forums where people just aren't as nice as the axiom folks around here.

That's a point for another time... OTHER AV forums where everyone is just so...So.....uhhmmmmm...Snotty? Is that a good word for it?

Take care everyone.

Max

Max, I could not agree with you more, My Toshiba plasma is 720p and the difference between SD and Blu Ray or HD DVD is very immpressive. What I found equally as good is the HD Audio.

I agree. I have 1080i Panasonic 50" Plasma and the PQ from my Blu-Ray is just stunning, probably even better than my cable's HD. I don't think you can really tell the difference between 1080p and 1080i. It's just those damn marketing hype. But then again, I'm probably just blind

Just a few comments (to all of the messages so far). HD on a disc (Blu-Ray or HD-DVD) will be better than cable or satellite, or SHOULD be anyway. Cable and satellite take the HD picture and still have to compress it a little bit to get all of the channels to fit in their bandwidth. Thus the reason it looks better on a disc than over a cable.

Also, 1080p really is a benefit for the "big guns" as far as screen sizes go. It has been discussed here and elsewhere that this will be a bigger benefit for projection systems with screens near and above 100". That is why you think that 1080p doesn't look any better than 1080i. At 50" 720p and 1080i look almost the same.

I've just started dabling with HD on my 720p front projector at 104" and I am loving it. This is just over the air stuff too, not the "good stuff" like Blu-Ray or HD-DVD...

Max, your Elite actually displays material at 1080p. Its native resolution is 1080, and as a plasma set it's inherently a progressive(rather than interlaced)display. The "1080i" description means only that it doesn't accept 1080p material directly, but deinterlaces 1080i to 1080p. As you've seen, the deinterlacing that your set does is excellent and you get a great picture. Enjoy.

Wow. Thanks for all the input, especially Nick and John. Nick explained it very well from the literature I have read and John told me a little something technically about my Plasma I didn't even really know. I guess that is why my picture looks better than my neighbors when he told me I would be wasting my time buying any type of HD/Blu ray player. So I appreciate that.

I guess one of my points is that some of the elitist's whom I spoke of before, at other AV forums, can be quite sh!tty to people when giving their opinion about purchasing new products. It hasn't happened to me but one guy just got roasted for saying how excited he was that his new Toshiba HD player would be showing up shortly. The perp told him that he wasted his money and shouldnt even bother hooking it up. You can guess what happened to that original poster? Yes, he never posted again.

That's what I love about the axiom board. Everyone is given their due respect and opinion.

That is shy this forum is so great. Yeah, I am in the HD-DVD camp, but I don't own one, and it isn't that I want Blu-Ray to fail. I just like some of the things with the format. To heck with which studios support which format. Since I don't own one, I look just at the technology. They are both great. I just like the fact the HD-DVD did it with a method that wasn't so costly to the manufacturer, and thus lower cost to the consumer. I am tired of companies like Sony thinking that just because they have some "all new" technology, that people will pay for it. Case in point, PS3. Sales are nowhere near where Sony wants them. Why? Too expensive for most people. Now look at the Wii. Cheapest of the "big 3" and people are eating it up. Is the PS3 cool? Absolutely, but the Wii is fun, and costs less than 1/2 of the PS3.

I like that model. Think of what the consumer is willing to buy, and don't try to cram cutting edge tech into consumer products right at the start when something else does just as good for less cash.

So with that belief, I am not going to slam you for buying a Blu-Ray. I think that it is awesome that you got one. I just don't agree with the business model.

So enjoy your HD movies! I know I wish I was!

I've been debating on weather to buy a Pioneer Elite Blue ray now. Or wait for next model to come out. I have a Elite Pro-1130HD. Im not sure when things will be compadable with Dolby Digital True HD and DTS-HD. Thats been the major hang up for me. I kind of want to future proof things. I hate all this upgradeitis! I also plan upgraded to Sherwood Newcastle pre amp and 7ch amp. Im just waiting for them to accept next gen audio formats. I guess my question is. Is it worth waiting for next gen auido formats?

Nick,

I am so with you on that as far as Sony goes!!!! It gets a little disgusting. I won't even get into how they calculate price point. Some kind of monkey math I think.

I would have prefered HD DVD but I got this Pioneer for free due to the fact that my wife is working on an advertising project for them right now. Well I shouldn't say free. She got it for me at a greatly reduced price without me even knowing. She brought it home and said, "They're a client so I feel a bit of patriotism in supporting them". Who am I to turn that down? lol.

Nick,

Honestly I think people that are in the know are sick to death of Sony and their pricing structure. I mean every HD DVD manufacturer has reduced their wholesale cost (a great deal in most cases) to retailers at this point while Sony Blu Ray, PS3 and PSP has reduced their rate by only a few percentage points to high volume retailers to zero for smaller outlets. It all just makes me sick.

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Is it worth waiting for next gen audio formats?

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The next generation audio formats Imo are great, I'm getting mine through HDMI on my receiver with my PS3. I'm replacing my 360 add on with the Toshiba HD XA2 so I can get the new sound formats for HD DVD. The Toshiba is also HDMI 1.3 compatible.
I'm in the HD DVD camp with Nick, although I have both BR as well as HD DVD, there are possible proprietary issues with future BR DVD's that may not be accepted by existing players. With Sony, one never knows what they will do.

I couldn’t care less if there is a format victor or not, just give me High Def video and audio. I love both children equally. And I certainly hope that this thread doesn’t turn into a format war debate. I’m about sick of seeing that crap. But if anyone is really passionate about it, there’s over a million posts on that very topic at AVS.

To comment on the different resolutions….

1080i verses 720P becomes easy to see a difference with Action/Sports or video based content.

720P verses 1080P isn’t that great of a leap unless you like to sit about 3’ away from your display. I couldn’t see any pixel structure on my 96” X 41” screen with 720P until I got about 4’ away from it. With my 1080P projector, I have to get about 12” away from it to see it.

Where I did notice a significant difference between the two projectors was in regards to color, contrast and depth. Whether that improvement was worth the cost is a personal issue. The other benefit going with the 1080P unit is I can send a native 1080P / 24 / 24 (24 frames per minute at 24 Hz) video signal to the projector. This is the same format that is stored on the HD/BR disk and there is no drop down cadence frame manipulation or doubling. It’s a frame for frame reproduction of the data that’s on the disk…..and it looks incredible.

And I'll mimick Michael's comments on the Audio. It's worth it. The difference is like going from low res WMA / MP3 to SACD.

No format war here. You will see an unbias set of comments from both users. More of an anti-Sony thing than anything. But you are right, that is off topic. The resolution situation has been explained, and I think that you brought up another valid point. Quality of the display, regardless of HD resolution, will have a huge impact on the end result image. Colors, tints, brightness, contrast, etc, etc are just as important.

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It hasn't happened to me but one guy just got roasted for saying how excited he was that his new Toshiba HD player would be showing up shortly.

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These are the same type of people that roast Axiom and have never heard the speakers. I just got my Toshiba XA2 all setup after downloading the updates, I was able to watch about 30 minutes of the Happy Feet HD DVD before my 3 year old took his nap, bar none this was the best visual and audio I have ever seen and heard. I'll post a better review later when I get a chance to play around with it some more.

such bulls%%%t,

just a way to do nothing, simplest form movies are 24 frames per second. only P3 outputs videa in 1080p

refreshs are 60 times per second
unless you have a 1320 x 1080 screen you cannot see the difference between 1080i and 1080p ..... do the math and talk to your eye doctor unless you have a bionic eye it is impossible. you will lose more information than you can see.

And Sat, cable will never output 1080p at least for the next 10 - 20 years. They are spending billions now just to convert to 1080i because it is mandated.

Um... no one's mandating 1080i. They're mandating broadcast (ie, antenna) be digital by 2009, but that doesn't necessarily mean HD. And it's got nothing to do with satellite or cable.

Standalone HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players also output in 1080p.

1080p is also ~1900x1080, not 1320x1080.

Sorry got the 1365x768 720p mixed up with 1080

1080i v. 1080p
By Geoffrey Morrison • November, 2006 Less than meets the eye.
The most frequently asked questions I've received this year have been about the difference between 1080i and 1080p. Many people felt—or others erroneously told them—that their brand-new 1080p TVs were actually 1080i, as that was the highest resolution they could accept on any input. I did a blog post on this topic and received excellent questions, which I followed up on. It is an important enough question—and one that creates a significant amount of confusion—that I felt I should address it here, as well.



There Is No Difference Between 1080p and 1080i
My bold-printed, big-lettered breaker above is a little sensationalistic, but, as far as movies are concerned, this is basically true. Here's why. Movies (and most TV shows) are shot at 24 frames per second (either on film or on 24-frame-per-second HD cameras). Every TV sold in the United States has a refresh rate of 60 hertz. This means that the screen refreshes 60 times per second. In order to display 24-frame-per-second content on a display that essentially shows 60 frames per second, you need to make up or create new frames. This is accomplished by a method called 3:2 pulldown (or, more accurately, 2:3 pulldown). It doubles the first frame of film, triples the second frame, doubles the third frame, and so on, creating a 2-3-2-3-2-3 sequence. (Check out Figure 1 for a more colorful depiction.) So, the new frames don't have new information; they are just duplicates of the original film frames. This process converts 24-frame-per-second film to be displayed on a 60-Hz display.

It's Deinterlacing, Not Scaling
HD DVD and Blu-ray content is 1080p/24. If your player outputs a 60-Hz signal (that is, one that your TV can display), the player is adding (creating) the 3:2 sequence. So, whether you output 1080i or 1080p, it is still inherently the same information. The only difference is in whether the player interlaces it and your TV deinterlaces it, or if the player just sends out the 1080p signal directly. If the TV correctly deinterlaces 1080i, then there should be no visible difference between deinterlaced 1080i and direct 1080p (even with that extra step). There is no new information—nor is there more resolution, as some people think. This is because, as you can see in Figure 1, there is no new information with the progressive signal. It's all based on the same original 24 frames per second.

In the case of Samsung's BD-P1000 Blu-ray player, the player interlaces the image and then deinterlaces it to create 1080p. So, you get that step regardless.

Two caveats: Other Blu-ray players can output 1080p/24. If your TV can accept 1080p/24, then it is adding the 3:2 sequence, unless it is one of the very few TVs that can change its refresh rate. Pioneer plasmas can change their refresh rate to 72 Hz, and they do a simple 3:3 pulldown (showing each film frame three times). This looks slightly less jerky.

If you're a gamer, then there is a difference, as 1080p/60 from a computer can be 60 different frames per second (instead of 24 different frames per second doubled and tripled, as with movie content). It is unlikely that native 1080p/60 content will ever be broadcast or distributed in wide numbers. The reasons for this are too numerous to get into here, but I list them in my follow-up blog.

So Don't Worry (Or Only Worry a Little)
Without question, it would be better if all TVs accepted a 1080p input. (Read that again before you start sending your e-mails.) What I hope this article points out is that, if you have a 1080p TV that only accepts 1080i, you're not missing any resolution from the Blu-ray or HD DVD source.

"The truth is this: The Toshiba HD-DVD player outputs 1080i, and the Samsung Blu-ray player outputs both 1080i and 1080p. What they fail to mention is that it makes absolutely no difference which transmission format you use—feeding 1080i or 1080p into your projector or HDTV will give you the exact same picture. Why? Both disc formats encode film material in progressive scan 1080p at 24 frames per second. It does not matter whether you output this data in 1080i or 1080p since all 1080 lines of information on the disc are fed into your video display either way. The only difference is the order in which they are transmitted. If they are fed in progressive order (1080p), the video display will process them in that order. If they are fed in interlaced format (1080i), the video display simply reassembles them into their original progressive scan order. Either way all 1080 lines per frame that are on the disc make it into the projector or TV. The fact is, if you happen to have the Samsung Blu-ray player and a video display that takes both 1080i and 1080p, you can switch the player back and forth between 1080i and 1080p output and see absolutely no difference in the picture. So this notion that the Blu-ray player is worth more money due to 1080p output is nonsense."

At 28 minutes, Happy Feet stops playing on my player. When I see that time come up, I have to skip forward to the next chapter or it dies, and I have to turn it off and try again. The Children of Men HD DVD has also given me a lot of grief. I'm kind of getting sick of the combo discs. I'm paying more for them even though I only care about the high-def side, and they seem to be causing issues for a lot of people.

Don't fall into the 1080p trap:
http://hometheater.about.com/od/televisionbasics/qt/1080ppitfall.htm

Perhaps I've been lucky with Happy Feet, no problems with my old 360 add-on or the Toshiba. What player are you using?

Have you updated the firmware lately? There is a new one available in the US. Version 1.5 according to Toshiba's site.

Axiom man,

You're not passionate over this are you??

The only way you can truly notice a difference is I’ve as I’ve already outlined above (but there is a difference). You need to send a 1080P/24 24 video stream to a display that will accept that video stream without re-scaling it. The only way you will be able to do that is with an external scaler or with the two BR players that output 1080P/24 (forgot which models that is). All others that output 1080P/60, pull 1080i off the disk, then de-interlace it and apply 2/3 cadence to get 60 fps. The PS3 is rumored to be getting a firmware update that will pull the native 1080/24 data off the disk, but I’m not holding my breath waiting for it. Plus, my VP-50 does a pretty remarkable job de-interlacing 1080i and outputting 1080P/24/24.

Although I do not think there is a big time, slap in the face difference between 720P/60 and 1080P/24, it is most definitely there (1080P/60 is not as great a difference). I can toggle back and forth between all formats and frame rates with the VP and see the difference. I have to look for it, but it is there. If you don’t have this capability, don’t fret over it though. It’s not enough to make me shed tears if I were to loose it. All HD looks great. Some just look a wee-bit greater….

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I have to look for it, but it is there. If you don’t have this capability, don’t fret over it though. It’s not enough to make me shed tears if I were to loose it. All HD looks great. Some just look a wee-bit greater….

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When the dvdp progressive scans first came out, i bought a version of the same non-progressive Panasonic that i still have now, but a year later obviously.
We tried some a/b switching running the same movie. We also got another dvdp which had the progressive switch on the front and one could turn it on and off by pressing that button.
Through this we determined that the difference in 480i/p was so minimal that the hype surrounding it was mostly marketing ra ra.
However, going with the higher resolution 1080 feed has been a truly huge difference from standard 480 feeds. I have yet to see if the 1080i/p test turns out similar to the 480i/p.
First i would need a 1080p tv....hmmmm....

I just can't see the diffence and I hate it when it is presented to us in a way to make us think hey spend a few more thousands because this is better ,when the truth is something else.
Kinda like washing your clothes in sunlight or ABC I can't see the difference
my eyes probably won't see the difference it is to fast and I don't think myself that is, that that extra frame I may get is worth an extra $1000 - $2000. If I had disposable income, that I would never get to see in my life ,I would buy 1080p just to say I have top-of-the-line

Chess, where you will (or maybe “should” is a better word than “will”) see a difference between I and P is with video and sports. Most sports are video based….btw. If you do decide to do a test, try ESPN HD. In truth, the only way to really appreciate a good video processor / scaler and understand why some people are as anal about video as Axiom board members are about audio, is with the use of test patterns and specific scenes in movies where there are known artifacts and other undesirable flaws that only a really good processor/scaler can get rid of. But who in the hell wants to sit around and watch test patterns all day??? I do not find that enjoyable.

But if anyone is really interested in doing a simple and cheap “test”, pop in Mission Impossible III / HD/DVD. I forget the scene number, but it’s the staircase scene when the crew is breaking into Vatican City. This is where you can most definitely see the difference between true 1080P/24 and all other formats. The stairs look flawless without artifacts on my display at 1080P/24 and almost as good at 1080P/60. If I bypass the VP-50 and send 1080i to my projector which will scale it to 1080P/60 (Pany 1000U), the staircase looks like a waterfall almost. It looked even worse with the Pany 900 outputting 720P.

……..I’ve learned to not look for these anomalies. Once you start, that’s all you see and the movie watching experience becomes less enjoyable. Just enjoy what you have and don’t get sucked into watching test patterns.

Axiom Man,

I am not advocating anyone dump extra coin to get a 1080P display device. Quite the contrary and I agree with you. It’s just not worth it.

If there is anywhere worth putting some extra coin down, that would be with a display that has excellent contrast, blacks, accurate color and lumen output. I would rather put an extra grand into a 720P projector with these traits than a 1080P projector with crappy blacks. For example, Sim2 has some outstanding 720P projectors on the market that will blow away most 1080P units, but they are proud of them….

I am happy with my 1000U and would not go back to the 900, but that’s not because of its resolution. It just has a better picture and it’s a better projector. Plus, it can be bought for $3800 on line and Panasonic just raised the rebate from $400 to $1000 and bumped up the warrantee to 3 years. And if you buy one from Projector People, they throw in an Oppo 981 for free. For that price it’s hard to pass up.

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where you will (or maybe “should” is a better word than “will”) see a difference between I and P is with video and sports. Most sports are video based….btw. If you do decide to do a test, try ESPN HD. In truth, the only way to really appreciate a good video processor / scaler and understand why some people are as anal about video as Axiom board members are about audio, is with the use of test patterns and specific scenes in movies where there are known artifacts and other undesirable flaws that only a really good processor/scaler can get rid of. But who in the hell wants to sit around and watch test patterns all day??? I do not find that enjoyable.

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I have read about this, that sports have the edge in showing progressive scan material but frankly with our LCD tv which to me still has that 'lag' look to it, i doubt i would be able to see any difference with i vs p.
Although i can say i'm a huge audio/videophile, i am certainly not a purist who believes that every test pattern flag fault that can be measured is worth extra cost or effort for an artifact that "may" be visible here and there "if" one has to look for it. I know there are many out there who are purists though and certainly i can only benefit from their scrutiny of picture quality, so i'm not complaining.

Still, i would not pass up the chance to see an equal test of i vs p if it were available to do. Unfortunately this is not something i am setup to attempt in our media room and any setup at the local box store would not be trusted any further than i could throw the store.
Speaker switching is one thing, but tv switching i just don't have the bucks to manage. Now if someone were to come visit, ship along their identical big screen tv with p capability, toss a few spare dvdp and appropriate content movies in their sacks and bring at least one quality bottle of wine from their region, NOW we've got something going!!

mdrew,
I agree with you, I plan on getting a full 1080 HD, just for the 1080i. I am not saying it is a waste.... if the price is right or even if they are the same $$$$....
Hell, I am looking for a 1080 HDTV, but I am not going to fret over it.
Therein lies the problem with the transmittion of a 1080p signal unless it recieves 1080p/24 most HD TV's cannot accept this, so you end up taking 1080p dropping it to 1080i via HDMI then the tv upscales it back to 1080p.