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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
michael_d #168269 05/18/07 01:04 PM
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Well, if your intent was to confuse me, success!

When an audio discussion brings up Darwin, it's officially off-track.

And "scientists are using data to prove that emotion and feeling does not exist"? - Uh...OK...whatever...

At any rate, I'm utterly open-minded on this topic. Just show me the results of a blind test, and I'll consider 'em. Open minded = willing to consider the evidence.

Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
St_PatGuy #168270 05/18/07 02:13 PM
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Careful, you're crossing the line with that one.
.
.
.


Quote:

It looks like a sweaty glass of motor oil.

Some may say that's exactly what it is.





M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office
Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
zhimbo #168271 05/18/07 02:41 PM
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Quote:

Well, if your intent was to confuse me, success!

When an audio discussion brings up Darwin, it's officially off-track.

And "scientists are using data to prove that emotion and feeling does not exist"? - Uh...OK...whatever...

At any rate, I'm utterly open-minded on this topic. Just show me the results of a blind test, and I'll consider 'em. Open minded = willing to consider the evidence.




I'm afraid of commitment and I can prove it too. Just ask my girlfreind.

Thanks Peter!!

Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
PeterChenoweth #168272 05/18/07 04:09 PM
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Very well said, Peter. Bravo!

Look, I don't "care" about this, either. I just want folks to be happy and satisfied in their hobbies. That being said, an absolute allegiance to science-as-God doesn't fit my world view, because it dismisses two important facts; First, it is impossible to measure how MY brain processes what MY ears collect. Second, MY perception is MY reality; it belongs to me, and again, you can't quantify it.

I'm prefectly willing to let folks derive joy from their purchases, without engaging in the tedious process of trying to prove that they can't hear a difference. I don't think you should have to PASS the double-blind test in order to be allowed to buy or enjoy an expensive amp.

I mean no disrespect to the scientists. Fundamentally, I'm pretty sure *I* can't hear a difference in my room with my ears, or at least one that I'm willing to pay for. But, you know, modern science is still pretty young relative to human existence, so I'm willing to accommodate the idea that God Loves Diversity and we don't know it all yet.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
tomtuttle #168273 05/18/07 04:23 PM
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You guys haven't heard a crappy AVR trying to run a pair of M80's at full cry. "Ohhh, those two sound the same to me"...I don't get it.

I suppose now we are going to hear" they have to be of the same type/quality"...

Anyway, as long as you like what you hear thats all that matters ...and I really like it.


Emotiva DMC1, MPS-1 ,M80v2 ,Klipsch RC64,Mirage Omni260 surrounds,Paradigm PW2200 sub
Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
tomtuttle #168274 05/18/07 04:27 PM
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Quote:

But, you know, modern science is still pretty young relative to human existence



Actually there is a ton of 'ancient' science, since the dawn of language invention that is quite amazing and accurate even by today's standards.
The concept of audio is certainly not new, since the dawn of the animal ear.
I'm not sure why people think this concept of audio testing is considered 'modern' as in the past decade. Human behaviour testing has gone on for alot longer, i believe in the hundreds of years range if i recall my Psych 101 classes (medic8r any updates on that info?).
Modern science can very much analyse anything our ears can hear. If there were correlations between what the brain perceives from the ear as being different from what instruments measure, that in itself is a pattern which any human whose taken basic stats can analyse.

I guess we need a discussion on the definition of modern.
Tom, why don't you kick that off for us starting with an ode to beer


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
KlipschGuy #168275 05/18/07 05:24 PM
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Quote:

You guys haven't heard a crappy AVR trying to run a pair of M80's at full cry. "Ohhh, those two sound the same to me"...I don't get it.

I suppose now we are going to hear" they have to be of the same type/quality"...



That's another straw man argument. You're not going to hear that from us eeeevil science types. What you will hear is that, quite obviously, you need to use an amp that is capable of driving your intended speakers withotu distortion or clipping. That is common sense.

And that applies to all comparisons. Of course you'll hear a difference between a current-limited and/or clipping amp and one that can handle the current demand.

Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
pmbuko #168276 05/18/07 06:07 PM
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Now that I've digested 3 pages of this topic *urp* , I have a question for us newbies. How, exactly, do you calculate how much power your AVR or amp needs in order to drive your speakers without clipping or distorting?


Polk R50, CS245 center, R15 rear, BIC Venturi sub HK AVR330 old Panasonic DVD older VHS
Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
jb #168277 05/18/07 06:08 PM
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Start with your room size, continue on with your estimated decibel level. Then make a wild ass guess.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
chesseroo #168278 05/18/07 06:09 PM
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Jeez, I don't think I really should continue to participate, but since we're having such fun at the moment...

I think Beer predates Audiology by about 5,000 years. So, obviously Beer > Audio.

My experiences judging beer have demonstrated to me that different people have different perception threshholds for certain compounds. Likewise, some people prefer dominance of certain compounds.

I guess I'm just proposing that what some people hear - and how that makes them feel - won't necessarily be the same as what I perceive or how it makes me feel. And that it is difficult (or perhaps impossible) to absolutely measure such things.

I've trotted this out before, but I still think it's relevant whether we're talking about comparisons between cables or amps or whatever.

To me, there are at least three different questions that are often detrimentally rolled into one.

1. Can *I* perceive a difference?
2. If I can perceive a difference, do I have a preference?
3. If I have a preference, is the increased cost/trouble a good *value* to me?

Even in the context of the double-blind studies, I'm just not comfortable (nor do I find particular value in) asserting that another listener can't possibly tell a difference. I have enough trouble inside my own head; I certainly don't aspire to comprehend how somebody else's brain works.

At some level, we're probably at a Faith v. Reason dichotomy.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
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