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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
Mojo #169030 05/30/07 02:56 AM
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Each horizontal line is 2dB, so I only see one spot with a 4dB difference in the highs, for the most part I'm only 1-2dB higher. I know JohnK said that there will be some overlap of the sub above 80hz.

The only thing I can think of is when I calibrated my system to 75dB, I may be a 1/2 dB difference or so higher for my main settings, I suppose that could result in some difference. Also, if my volume knob was a click or two different, that could change things.

There is no program I'm using for the above chart. I'm using realtraps cd and hand wrighting the results on paper, then entering them into a spreadsheet.

I have not had time to play with the RoomEQ wizzard yet. I know it has a lot of options, filters, etc. I pretty much use it to graph my freq response.


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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
SirQuack #169031 05/30/07 03:04 AM
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M
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Quote:

Each horizontal line is 2dB, so I only see one spot with a 4dB difference in the highs, for the most part I'm only 1-2dB higher.




You're right. This is the second time this has happened. I think I need new glasses.

Quote:

There is no program I'm using for the above chart. I'm using realtraps cd and hand wrighting the results on paper, then entering them into a spreadsheet.




Don't you have a daughter that can do that ?

Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
Mojo #169032 05/30/07 03:18 AM
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Sorry, two sons, 2.5 and 8 and their in bed.


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
SirQuack #169033 05/30/07 10:34 AM
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Randy, the rule of thumb to calibrate the sub flat with the speakers at 75db using the RS SPL metre is to set the sub at 72.5db so you may want to bump up your sub gain by 1.5 db using 40hz as the reference. Also you may get flatter response at a location closer to the seats on your left sidewall. In any event I would try to place the sub to minimize that peak at 80hz. The EP600H works just as well standing up and the small posts would be facing the front. Your direct graph shows why running the system to duplicate bass through speakers and sub is usually not a good idea.

That huge null at 120hz is a problem. Perhaps moving the speakers a bit further apart or moving the seats slightly will help. Also I would experiment with a 100hz crossover and see if that helps reduce breadth of the null. Blending the speakers with the sub to obtain flat response at the crossover point is very important to getting good system integration.

Here is one of my recent graphs. I had reasonable response but had to tame several peaks with an SMS equalizer to get it this flat.




John
Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
jakeman #169034 05/30/07 09:59 PM
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I think a 120 Hz dip corresponds to about 2.3 feet from speaker (driver, port, whatever) to wall or floor. If you have a bunch of "2 foot 4 inch" distances in your system you might want to try to change some or all of them.

Last edited by bridgman; 05/30/07 10:00 PM.

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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
bridgman #169035 05/31/07 02:48 AM
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Thanks for the suggestion John. I have a smallish null there as well. My mains and centre are about 2.5 ft away from the front wall. I will experiment with distance from the front wall.


John
Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
bridgman #169036 05/31/07 02:57 AM
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Ditto John B., Randy. That 120Hz area wouldn't be an M80 spacing cancellation problem unless the separation was about a half wavelength at 120Hz(about 5')and of course it's much more than that. If it relates to driver to floor distances there might not be a reasonable re-positioning solution available, and receiver room equalization might be looked to.


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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
JohnK #169037 06/02/07 04:30 PM
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Ok guys after a few years of hanging around these parts you would think I would have it all figured out. NOT

Now that it appears that "direct" mode ignores bass management settings, I've begun to listen to music using standard CD Stereo mode. I'm not very happy with the output overall, especially in the Bass category.

Keep in mind I normally have all speakers calibrated the same using my meter around 75dB. Lately, based on what Jakeman has provided, I've been calibrating my sub to be a little lower so it matches closer to my main settings. I also use a crossover of 80hz and "small" for all speakers.

My Denon 2805 only has one crossover setting, so this has always seemed to work great both for movies and music. However, this was because I have always listened to music using Direct mode and it now appears this is giving my 80's the full freq range since the bass management is bypassed.

When listening to music in "stereo" mode now, the music has no "punch" anymore. I assume this is because the 80's are now sending the freq's below 80hz to the sub. I know JohnK and others talk about this "rolloff" theory, however, this does not seem to be very active in this situation.

Highs/mids are fine, but the low frequencies sound thin. If I click the "direct" button on my Denon remote, BAMMMMM, the music sounds killer and has more life to it. From my understanding from everyone, this is more than likely due to my left/right 80 woofers are now adding addition dB's to the sub's output alone.

If I set my 80's to large, and listen to "stereo" mode, it sounds much closer to "direct" mode as the 80's are getting everything.

It appears that I can adjust the Sub level while in "stereo" mode and this will stay active only for "stereo" mode and not affect the other settings more movies, direct mode, etc.

But even when cranking up the sub level, it just was not the same as when the 80's were added into the picture.

So what do the rest of you do when listening to music? Which mode do you use and which bass mgmt settings are you using?

I feel like a newby all over again.


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
SirQuack #169038 06/02/07 04:42 PM
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My H/K has two analog modes--direct and DVD audio. Direct passes a fullrange signal to the speakers. DVD audio utilizes the crossover setting in the receiver and sends a signal to the sub. I've been using the DVD audio setting mainly to help drown out my noisy downstair neighbors. I'm convinced they have small satellite speakers and a sub that tries to do everything. When they watch tv (all the time with the volume cranked) all I hear is the rumbling of bass in male voices. Anyways. . .

I know my Denon 2900 has a direct mode, but I haven't used it in a long time. I think you can set it so it shuts of all extraneous video settings, and I think you can make it only pass a full range signal. I'll have to dig out the manual.


***********
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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
SirQuack #169039 06/02/07 05:43 PM
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Hi Randy;

When I have time to fiddle with receiver settings (my receiver's front panel display went out and I haven't gotten around to having it fixed) I listen to music with M60s in Large and sub disabled. Still like that best. When feeling lazy I listen with M60s in Small and sub enabled, ie same settings as DVD.

A few random thoughts :

When you made the graphs using the test CD, were you running in a different mode than when you do most of your listening esp. DVD ? I think the answer is "yes", which maybe means we need to revisit your experiences re: frequency response vs. enjoyment of the sound. Or did most of your comments re: sound quality relate to music played in the same receiver/speaker/BM mode as used for making graphs ?

I find my ears get used to a particular sound and any deviation from that sound seems "bad" at first. When doing your music listening previously, what is your understanding re: which speakers were active ? Did you have bass management at all, ie was the sub running ?

I remember being baffled a few months ago because moving your speakers around did not result in the response changes we expected -- maybe this is part of the reason ?


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