 M60 + Sub
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Greetings All:
I finally received my M60's and even with my current setup, which will or may cause you to laugh yourselves silly, I think the system sounds fabulous. However, I do believe there is the potential to make it sound better.
The setup contains the following equipment, which I'm going to start upgrading, so I'm looking for advise for candidate components:
1. Amp: Soundstage One Hybrid Tube Integrated Amp (25 wpc, Chinese knock-off), which I'm keeping.
2. M60's - that's a no-brainer.
3. 1985 Philips & 1990 Sony CPDs - I need to upgrade.
4. Speaker Wire - I've read so much on speaker wire that I'm ready to buy a reel of it and hang myself. I'm a believer (based on research that I did (5 - 10 yrs. ago) that for audio, you can't do bettter than 99.9% oxygen-free pure copper with non-oxidized leads, of a gauge appropriate to suit the load you're driving. I've been told by "experts" on other Forums, and sales people, that I'm an idiot. Any opninions.
5. Speaker/Amp Interconnects - I have always used raw sanded copper for the speaker/amp interconnect, which I resand if I ever remove them. I know connectors are aestheicaslly more pleasing, and that's my preference, but I'm letting the technical solution be the arbiter here. As for RCA jacks, the ones advertised by Axiom look well made. I used to use Dayton Audio. Any opinions?
6. Sub-woofer - I play at moderate home levels in a multi-use small room (20' x 20' x8'), and obviously don't expect nor do I want to, shake windows or walls. With the M60's should I consider a sub, and would it improve my system performance if I did get one?
Thanks All
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Re: M60 + Sub
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You should buy an Axiom EP500 or 600 sub if you watch movies. If not, a sub is a luxury. You should not pay more than $1 per foot for your cable. Visit your local Home Depot. For your room dimensions, 12 gauge is more than adequate. Let the flaming begin  . I don't know what "raw sanded copper" is so I can't comment.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Tam, a couple comments: if you listen to music with substantial low bass content(e.g. pipe organ, etc.)then even with the relatively good bass of the M60s, a good sub will be a significant benefit. This is also the case in movies when especially strong low frequency effects(LFE) such as explosions, etc. are present. On the speaker wire, there's not a scintilla of solid evidence that regular lamp cord of an appropriate gauge doesn't do the job as well as anything, regardless of cost. Although they're not "idiots"(especially if they make money by selling magic wire)and certainly shouldn't call you that, the term would fit them more closely if they stubbornly refuse to acknowledge basic audio principles of power transmission and the results of properly controlled double-blind listening tests. If you haven't previously studied it, this explanation by a veteran audio professional covers the topic well. As to why such stubborn resistance in this matter still amazingly creates controversy, the concluding paragraph in his "The Big Picture" section summarizes it.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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1. I'm on dial-up, so my responses are quite slow. 2. I'm gaining some confidnce - I've only ever used lamp cord (zip wire). 3. I've also been told that in regards to a sub, SVS is the only way to go. SVS Subwoofers
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Re: M60 + Sub
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SVS makes good subwoofers, as does HSU, as does Velodyne, as does Axiom, etc.. 
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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Re: M60 + Sub
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JohnK:
1. I've got a lot of J S Bach, but haven't listened to it for years - I needed a change, so now it's jazz.
2. Believe it or not, I found the reference you cited, two days ago, and am soon about to read it. It looks like it might put an end to a lot of fairy tales provided that it gets to the right people.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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I appreciate Bach, but I'm a lot more into the Romantic rather than the Baroque eras. If you need a change, I'd suggest that Rachmaninoff, Holst(The Planets), Ravel, etc., among the discs that I've listed here in the past, are certainly a major change from Bach.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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I agree with John, he brought me back to have an interest in classical.
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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Re: M60 + Sub
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If you plan on listening to a pipe organ, you will need an EP600 or equivalent. And if you plan on feeling a subcontrabass clarinet, you will need one of these.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Joined: Jul 2006
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connoisseur
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Quote:
1. I'm on dial-up, so my responses are quite slow.
2. I'm gaining some confidnce - I've only ever used lamp cord (zip wire).
3. I've also been told that in regards to a sub, SVS is the only way to go.
SVS Subwoofers
The Axiom DSP subs (EP400, EP500, EP600) are more musical than any SVS offering. The EP500 also outperformed the SVS Ultra box sub (the 12" version) in a double blind test with multiple AVSforum members.
The EP500 is a great sub for the money and you get a digital DSP controlled amp.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Hutzal:
Although I said I listen to Classical occasionally, in fact, I listen to Classical in the fall/winter, and Jazz during the spring/summer. It's summer now, so that was the reason for what I said. So much for the nonsense.
Given what I have just said above, which of the EP series woulkd you recommend (I have M60's).
Thanks
Last edited by tamzarian; 06/22/07 06:45 PM.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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connoisseur
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Quote:
I think the system sounds fabulous.
That's all that really matters 
Quote:
1. Amp: Soundstage One Hybrid Tube Integrated Amp (25 wpc, Chinese knock-off), which I'm keeping.
I've never owned a tube amp, but for some reason they fascinate me. You might get some 'digital dirty looks' around here for using it, but I say that if you like the way it sounds then go for it.
Quote:
2. M60's - that's a no-brainer.
Welcome to the club!
Quote:
3. 1985 Philips & 1990 Sony CPDs - I need to upgrade.
Um, probably not a bad idea! The 1990 Sony might not be *that* bad, but the 1985 is really reaching back to the early days of CD's. You might want to take a look at an Oppo player. While I don't own one, they're pretty popular universal players that are highly regarded and are not very expensive. Even Stereophile thought the $249 one was a steal.
Quote:
4. Speaker Wire - I've read so much on speaker wire that I'm ready to buy a reel of it and hang myself.
Few topics will 'stir the pot' as much as speaker wire. I'm of the 'middle-road' camp. I use wire (Canare 4S11 and Belden from Blue Jeans Cable) that fits my budget and application but that is more expensive than lamp cord. I can't objectively say that it sounds any better, but I like the asthetics of the thicker, more solid wire.
Quote:
5. Speaker/Amp Interconnects - I have always used raw sanded copper for the speaker/amp interconnect, which I resand if I ever remove them.
I have a couple of pairs of Monster Cable interconnects that were like $40 each. Nice, but they're just cables. I have several pairs of the 'premium' RCA interconnects from Monoprice.com that cost like $5 each. I can tell no difference what-so-ever in SQ. I quite like them.
Quote:
6. Sub-woofer - I play at moderate home levels in a multi-use small room (20' x 20' x8'), and obviously don't expect nor do I want to, shake windows or walls. With the M60's should I consider a sub, and would it improve my system performance if I did get one?
I have M80's and listen to mostly classical and jazz music too, and they are greatly helped by my SVS PCI+ 20-39. I would say that your M60's would certainly benefit too. The 'company line' around here will be, for obvious reasons, to check out an EP500 or EP600. I've not experienced either, but they are supposed to be monster subs. Monster in terms of output and quality. But you're not talking about needing a sub that can re-arrange furniture nor strip paint from the walls. You're listening to classical and jazz music, which isn't usually bass-heavy music. I don't know if you need such a monster sub. I would definitely take a good look at SVS and HSU's subs. The VTF line of HSU's are especially popular, and offer a whole lot of sub for less money than the 'bad-boy' EP500/600. Not to take anything away from the EP500/600, but they might be overkill for your application.
Last edited by PeterChenoweth; 06/22/07 07:25 PM.
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office
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Re: M60 + Sub
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connoisseur
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I listen to alot of jazz with my EP500 and M22s, and it sounds great to me.
The EP500 is a really musical sub, it can reproduce an acoustic bass, and electric bass with clarity.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Thanks Peter:
1. My number one priority will be the CDP; the subs can wait until Christmas.
2. I've always used lamp cord (zip wire), but this time I think I'm gonna' plurge and buy some Axiom wire at $1/ft. I bought some Dayton RCA audio connectors a few years ago (highly rated back then and so cheap), so those are going to be my amp/speaker interconnects. That's it until I win the lottery.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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veteran
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Quote:
It looks like it might put an end to a lot of fairy tales provided that it gets to the right people.
You are an overly optimistic person, unfortunately. Silly things like evidence and reason! Bah!
Excellent site, though. I adore the part about the in-store Monster cable demo which shows "improved imaging" and "wider soundstage" with Monster cable...with 1 speaker! Now THAT'S some cable!
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Re: M60 + Sub
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The sub will make far more of a difference than the CDP.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: M60 + Sub
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axiomite
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axiomite
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I have to agree with Ken here. Price vs. performance you will here a much greater diffence, to the good, getting the sub and run the cd player you already own.
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: M60 + Sub
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zhimbo:
I concur with your implication of my stupidity; a very pleasant way of saying such! Humour (I hope) aside, I agree. Marketing always wins when it comes to wire sales. One day someone is winding alternate strands in oppposite directions, and the next day, someone is using the same technique but winding alternate pairs of strands in opposite directions.
You're absolutelty right; I'm living in Oz, and the best I can do is pass that article onto my friends.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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kcarlile:
Unfortunately, I don't understand most of your comments; they're one-liners like out of a cartoon strip. I think those comments are embedded with a lot of information, and if you would take just a bit more time to explain them, we would all be better off for it.
Working on that premise, should you agree to it, would you be so kind as to explain yourself. How did you trade off CDP performance against subwoofer performance. I would have argued exactlly the opposite.
I would have said that a quality CDP in combination with the quality M60's I'm lucky to have is going to give me most of the performance, while a subwoofer would only enhance a poorer source of audio, namely my older CDPs.
Where did I err?
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Re: M60 + Sub
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wid:
1. Read what I just posted to to Ken, and then tell me if you've changed your opinion.
2. To all - you're entitled to change your mind on this Forum without embarassment, unless you have a BIG EGO. I 'eat crow' all the time, and I'm not not embarassed about it. It demonstrates to me that I have the guts to admit when I'm wrong, and more importantly, that I've learned something.
3. Philosophical, Mickey Rooney gut-turning rhetoric now ends. However, no guarentee that it might occur again (GOD give me mercy)!.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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axiomite
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axiomite
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I read your OPINION and I do not agree with it. It is my OPINION that $700 spent on a quality sub will bring more to the music presentation than any dollar amount spent on a new cd player. It has been my experience that different cd players have very little, if any, difference in sound. Adding a good quality sub to any speaker will have a far greater impact. Quote:
To all - you're entitled to change your mind on this Forum without embarassment, unless you have a BIG EGO.
It really does no good being a newbe smartass either. You asked for our thoughts and we gave them to you. I just so happens not everyone agreed with you, it does not make us wrong.
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: M60 + Sub
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I'm not sure how to break it down further--You've got a CDP. While it might not quite produce the output you want (you seem to only have your friend's word on it that it will if you trade up for a $700 one), a sub will add bottom end bass. This will matter for a lot of rock and pop, organ music, and probably jazz recorded in the last 30 years or so. The CDP will likely be a minor change; a properly calibrated, quality sub will be a major change.
I did not notice a change in CD quality when I went from my 10 year old JVC (analog outputs) to a modern Yamaha (digital output+SACD, DVD-A, etc, etc.) I have not heard a tube CDP, in all honesty. However, I must take issue with people who say that I can't have an opinion on anything unless I have experienced it first hand.
There is of course the question of whether you want more bass.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: M60 + Sub
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By the way (new post in case you already read my last one)
The best way to tell if that $700 CDP will make a difference is for your friend to bring it over to your house. Put the same CD in both your CDP and his. Set them up on your preamp. Press play at the same time. Oe of you (him) would be standing next to the preamp (or with the remote) and would switch back and forth between the two at random times. It would be preferable if you did not know which one was playing at any given time. Then you can see for yourself what/how much/if there's any difference. It's only single blind testing, but that should be good enough for an informal test.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Don't forget to keep the listening volume exactly the same, or the louder one (even if by a Decibel or so) will almost always sound better.
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Right, I forgot about that. That may pose a difficulty if one has a louder output than the other. I'm used to doing this with speakers, separate receivers, etc... Been awhile since I've done components.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: M60 + Sub
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wid:
1. I am not on this Forum to create disharmony, period. If you perceive what I have said is disharmonious, then you should have the courtesy to inform me so in private, so I can make a decsion as to whether I'm in the 'wrong' (so I can correct it"), or, whether you have misconstrued that which I have said.
2. How you found me to be a newbie 'smart ass" is beyond my wildest imagination. I have been nothing but cordial and respectful on this Forum, and after reading everything that I have writen, l couldn't agree with myself more. I agree that sometimes I interject humour, but that is so seldom, that it can be dismissed.
3. If I have written something that offends you, or others, and obviously I have, have the constitution to tell me what I said that was out of line. If I believe I was out of line, I will apologize. If I said something that you believe is out of line, I will apologize. If I believe that you were wrong, I will state so.
4. wid, get a sense of humour - I guarentee you that with the info that you provide on this Forum, 'no one is after you'. We appreciate the info you contribute. And I also guarentee that if some is 'after you", they'll be snagged in a 'rat trap'.
5. Despite what was said, I appreciate the URL to Pacific.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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kcarlile:
I think that was the answer I was looking for.
I'm going to so summarise in my words, and you tell me if where I'm wrong:
1. so long as the CDP is of reasonable quality, which is to say, it sounds good to you, it doesn't matter which one you get
2. the sub is going to supplement the shortcomings in the CDP.
3. end of story?
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Re: M60 + Sub
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trollzarian,
I find it interesting that you fail to see your sarcastic nature to people that have been members around here for 3-5+ years, and carry great respect by the other members.
You obviously have not been around enough to know these people. Your either pretty immature, or carry a big ego to make comments like that to Rick.
If you don't want people to respond to your questions, don't ask questions. You seem to know all the answers and dislike feedback from people that have been around AV most likely longer than you've been born.
Take a chill pill.
peace out
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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Re: M60 + Sub
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My point is, I don't think your CDP has shortcomings. It may not output sound with the characteristics that you would expect from a tubed device, but unless it's seriously a POS, it's reproducing what's on the CD accurately.
A sub would change what you hear more than a CDP--it's adding another driver, and I think we can all agree that speakers make the most difference in the sound your system makes, by a long shot.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: M60 + Sub
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aficionado
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aficionado
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Ahh, lovely...who remembers Stoneman??
Epic 80 / SVS PB13 Ultra
Denon 3805 / M2200 Outlaw Monos /
Sammy 55" LED
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club shareholder in the making
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Did he have a custom action figure made?
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Re: M60 + Sub
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sirquack-way-too-much
1. How long these members have been on this forum is not germane; only their knowledge is. After all, that is the nature of a Forum.
2. I've gone out of my way to be cordial and polite, and if asking a question controversial or not, constitiutes insurrection to those who constitute this Forum, I would recommend that they either adopt a sense of humour, or move on from grammmar school, to a place where people are a bit more harsh. And I say this with all sincerity.
3. Please give me one example of where I've been out of line, and I will answer to that as guilty or not. Oh, and make sure you explain how I was out of line. Fair proposition?
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Yeah, I remember that guy, and what was is cousins name slownlo?
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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Re: M60 + Sub
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I feel sorry for a lot of you guys because you spent a lot of time trying to help Stoneman out. 
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wid/Ken:
1. I re-read what you and Ken posted, and I think it wins over my logic.
2. I think you & Ken have convinced me to invest in a sub, rather than a CDP.
3. It's going in my bedroom which is 10' x 10' x 8 '.
4. I'm playing classical & jazz.
5. The family doesn't want to be disturbed (that's negotiable).
6. What do I buy (I have M60's) & how much do I pay for my acquision?
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sirquack-alot:
No less than I would have expected:
1. VERY BIG on shooting off his mouth
2. VERY SMALL on providing the evidence
I certainly detest war, but when you accuse someone of something, you had better be prepared to present the evidence, huh Comrade?
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Hutzal:
If I were using subs I would be using them in a 10' x 10' x 8' bedroom under limited volume conditions. Do I stiil require subs, and if so, can you provide a recommendation?
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Spoiler:
1. If you remember Stoneman, you win an all-paid vacation to the biggest shi-hole, ladden with the most swampy-mosquito ridden landscape in the US.
2. Gators and hurricanes are a bonus.
3. Here's a hint: if this character is called Stoneman, he for one, has to live in Florida because no one else could be so stupid!.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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axiomite
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axiomite
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>>Please give me one example of where I've been out of line, and I will answer to that as guilty or not. Oh, and make sure you explain how I was out of line. Fair proposition?
Tamzarian, I think it started when you made what was perceived as a rude comment to wid without any apparent reason, and spiraled down from there.
My re-re-re-re-reading of the post (the one to the effect that changing your mind is no problem unless one has a BIG EGO) was not necessarily intended to be critical of wid but because of the capitalization it sure came across that way.
BTW Sirquack's first response had nothing to do with how long anyone had been on this forum -- as you correctly point out that doesn't count for much. What he said was that some of these people had been working with and bulding knowledge about AV for a long time and *that* wasn't something you should just blow off.
Anyways, we Canadians are supposed to be a polite and tolerant lot, right ? It says that on the back of the flag in small letters.
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
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Quote:
Spoiler:
1. If you remember Stoneman, you win an all-paid vacation to the biggest shi-hole, ladden with the most swampy-mosquito ridden landscape in the US.
2. Gators and hurricanes are a bonus.
3. Here's a hint: if this character is called Stoneman, he for one, has to live in Florida because no one else could be so stupid!.
That is a childish, rude, and inappropriate response. Some long-standing members know just what I meant when I referenced Stoneman. Your retort only re-enforces my reference.
Quote:
I've gone out of my way to be cordial and polite,...
Oh really? Well, that's obviously something you can't claim anymore. If you're interested at all in garnering any respect from the members of this forum, I suggest you take a step back and re-examine how you choose to post here. You ain't doin' so hot so far.
Please find a way to be kind to others here and you will be welcomed.
By the way, I suggest the EP350 for your room. 
Epic 80 / SVS PB13 Ultra
Denon 3805 / M2200 Outlaw Monos /
Sammy 55" LED
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Bridgman:
1. "BIG EGO" has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with wid, or any other member of this Forum!! All I was trying to say is if you make a mistake don't be afraid to admit it. Obviously, "BIG EGO" should have gone in a separate E-mail unrelated to anyone (however you do that). My apologies to wid for thinking that I would write something like that about him!! I certainly would not!!
2. "BTW Sirquack's first response had nothing to do with how long anyone had been on this forum -- as you correctly point out that doesn't count for much. What he said was that some of these people had been working with and bulding knowledge about AV for a long time and *that* wasn't something you should just blow off."
I misconstrued what he said. I realise that people on this Forum work hard; I can tell by the answers to questions. I just got peed-off with someone thinking that I was being rude to wid, when that was absolutelty false. However, I take your point; I was way out of line with Sirquack, I sincerely apologise to Sirquack, and I sincerely hope that Sirquack will accept my apology.
3. "Anyways, we Canadians are supposed to be a polite and tolerant lot, right ? It says that on the back of the flag in small letters."
I apologise for my conduct on this Forum, and for the other things said further down as a result of the "BIG EGO". Next time I will be more careful in how I write things, and if I misconstrue something in a way that's going to make me fly off the handle, I'll just 'take a pill', and cool off.
4. That's it unless you want more out of me (and that's not meant to be condescending).
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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Posts: 16,441 |
Quote:
However, I must take issue with people who say that I can't have an opinion on anything unless I have experienced it first hand.
How you do you know a Ferrari is too expensive? You've never owned one before!
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Spoiler:
1. Please read my response to bridgeman.
2. You are absolutely right; I was obnoxious and rude. I have apologized to everyone on this Forum, and am apologising to you for what I have written. Will you accept my apology?
3. Thanks for the advise on the EP350. Did you you use any methodology other than listening to choose the EP350?
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Re: M60 + Sub
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aficionado
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Tamzarian.. thanks for considering what I've said, and yes, your apology is accepted!
I recommended the EP350 based on your equipment and room size, though to be honest I haven't heard it myself. It should meet your needs quite well.
I've got the EP500, and it is a significant step up due to the 500 watt amp & DSP technology. If your budget allows, you might consider the EP500 to 'future proof' your sub, especially if you may move to a larger room in the future.
Epic 80 / SVS PB13 Ultra
Denon 3805 / M2200 Outlaw Monos /
Sammy 55" LED
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Spoiler:
The usual problem: my room is small, and major furniture is fixed in location. That means the sub is relegated to a non-negotiable position. Because I can't move it to the optimuum position, am I going to realise any benefit from it?
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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You'll have to play with it a bit, but you should see some benefit. Bearing in mind that I haven't heard the Hsu or the EP350, you should probably also consider SVS and Hsu subs in the same price range. Now, if you're looking at ~$11-1200 for a sub, go with the 500, hands down. 400 if you want a smaller box, although I have yet to see a review of one.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Ken & wid:
You've convinced me to go with a sub. I stated the dimensions of my small room (10' x 10' x 8'), with most furniture fixed in position.
So I'm going to walk into this sub-shop, with a room of different dimensions, all speakers properly placed, and whatever brand I listen to, is going to sound good. How do I make a decision. Just go with the recommendations that you made Ken (since you've been through this process). I've got about $700 CAN to spend, and as for finding audio shops in Ottawa to have a listen, you might as well live in Hooterville.
Best Regards
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Re: M60 + Sub
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axiomite
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axiomite
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I would try and find a shop that still has some Hsu subs in stock. If you do then I would recommend the Hsu VTF 2 MK2. It will go plenty low and does sound great with music. I would have also said to check out the Axiom EP 350 but it doesn't look as if it has R&L low-level inputs. If you were connecting the sub from a set of pre outs I would definitely look for a sub that has these connections.
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: M60 + Sub
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wid
Someone has offerede me PolkAudio PSW1000, brand new, still in the box, for $1000 CDN. Do IU go for it?
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Re: M60 + Sub
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shareholder in the making
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From everything I've read, that seems to be an excellent suggestion by Wid. I had my Sony SAWM40 (120W) in a room that had the same volume as yours. The bass was simply gut-wrenching in that little room . So my opinion is that you don't need a lot of power for that room volume. Try to find a sub that is musical. You will have to try it out in your room and should not rely on what you hear at the shops.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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I don't believe you need a sub that powerful (nor that expensive) for your room volume.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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axiomite
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axiomite
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I have never heard a Polk sub but from what I have read they do not make the best of subs. I think I would shop around for something else.
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: M60 + Sub
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wid:
My thanks for your recommendation; other people have said they know nothing about Polk. I don't know if that's marketing, or a poor product.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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wid:
For my sized room, I just need a list of recommended vendors; I think I can find the size I need. My hybrid amp has sub O/Ps (if that makes any difference).
SVS?
HSU?
Thanks for your knowledge-base.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Hsu or Svs would be great choices for you. There is also Velodyne, Paradigm and Mirage. I'm sure others will be able to think of more.
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Rick:
The EP350's are $725 CDN vs $399 (US or CDN)? for the VTF-2 MK 2. Which way to go? Reading the specs, the HSUs seem to out-class the EP's. am I missing something?
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Rick:
If I told the fellow who offered me the Polks at originally $1899 for $1000, that I would give him $500 or $750 tops, would that change your opinion. I know you've never heard them, so I don't really expect a yes or no. And
given that he lives in Toronto and can't unload them may speak volumes. Just the same, a bargain is a bargain. I can't see that any sub is so good that money- value wouldn't overtake their performance.
And no, they aren't hot - he just got stuck (he's a dealer).
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Re: M60 + Sub
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Your not missing anything, the Hsu subs are a great sub for the money.
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: M60 + Sub
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wid:
My thanks;
You have given me an answer by which to go by!
Best Regards
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,463 Likes: 1
axiomite
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axiomite
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Tamzarian, I ran a Hsu VTF2 MkII, and then later a VTF3 MkII, in a room the same size as yours. Both sounded very nice. Wid's giving you good advice--the Hsu subs are extremely capable.
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose
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Re: M60 + Sub
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buff
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Which one are you recommending, keeping in mind the room may grow.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16 |
Outlaw makes some pretty good subs too. the LFM2 is fairly inexpensive. Every once in a while they have open box / seconds sales on their web sight.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Mike the problem with the Outlaw subs is they do not have the R&L low-level inputs to use from a preamp.
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: M60 + Sub
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axiomite
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If I were to go with a system geared more to music, I'd like the VTF2--although it is no slouch for HT. Remember, this is just my opinion, but I slightly preferred the sound of the 10" driver with music. Also, this was the Mk2 version of the VTF2. The current VTF2, designated Mk3, uses a 12" driver.
I was looking for maximum slam for HT and ended up going with the VTF3 Mk2. I really hesitate to tell you which one to get because it's really subjective. Both subs sounded great. For a music only system I would have chosen the 10". As it was, I needed one for HT as well, and wanted something big and powerful and went with the 12".
I haven't heard the newer Hsu subs. My advice for subs is to buy the biggest you can afford. As long as you keep the gain under control it won't overpower a small room, and you're future-proofed if you move into a larger space.
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose
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Re: M60 + Sub
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connoisseur
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connoisseur
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Quote:
Mike the problem with the Outlaw subs is they do not have the R&L low-level inputs to use from a preamp.
Hu?? What's a low-level input? My LFM-1 has the standard coax and line-level. Have they changed their designs?
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Re: M60 + Sub
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axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,379 Likes: 7 |
low level = line level
I think the previous post was just saying that there is only one line level input, so if you are using a stereo receiver (rather than AVR) and don't have a "subwoofer out" then you need to find another way to blend the two channels.
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
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Re: M60 + Sub
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axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Aug 2004
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BTW if you're in Ottawa then the closest known Hsu dealer is probably Superteck in Montreal. I think that's the right spelling.
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
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Re: M60 + Sub
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Yeah John that's exactly my point.
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Jul 2004
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Quote:
low level = line level
I think the previous post was just saying that there is only one line level input, so if you are using a stereo receiver (rather than AVR) and don't have a "subwoofer out" then you need to find another way to blend the two channels.
I use the line level from my stereo pre/pro. R – L in and then out to the stereo speakers. I have to use the sub’s X-over in this configuration.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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axiomite
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axiomite
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You are using speaker cables (high level)............correct? I am talking about R&L low level inputs.......coax cable. 
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16
connoisseur
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connoisseur
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My LFM-1 has both. One coax LFE input and the speaker wire line levels.
I can't tell from the picture you posted what the coax port is at the top right. Isn't that the LFE input, or something different?
If the LFM-1plus got rid of the LFE coax input, that was a dumb-assed move and I remove my recomendation.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Jun 2003
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Quote:
My LFM-1 has both. One coax LFE input and the speaker wire line levels.
Right it does only have one LFE input. To use with the stereo pre amp outs it would be best if the sub amp would have both right and left rca inputs.
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: M60 + Sub
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connoisseur
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connoisseur
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Oh.,…. Now I’m following you. I see what you are writing now buddy!! Hell, I didn’t even know subs had a R/L coax input. My EP600 doesn’t even have them. Just balanced in and out, and they aren’t R/L. Just one each. That sounds like a super cool feature though. Who has it??? Errr… maybe you better not tell me. I’ll just want to get another sub..
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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Mine's got 'em. And high pass outputs. Of course, it's only 140 watts into a 12" woofer, but at least it's sealed!
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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 Re: M60 + Sub
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Posts: 118
veteran
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veteran
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I do believe there are only 2 places left in Canada with stock of HSU .. And the only version left is vtf3mk2 ... When I was looking a month or so ago there were no vtf2's left in Canada, and shipping from th US can be pricy..
Pio VSX1018,LPA-1,M60,M3,Qs8,Vp150,HSU VTF3,,Pio 5080,PS3..
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Joined: Aug 2004
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axiomite
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axiomite
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I was wondering about that. It seems like the Canadian disties & dealers aren't getting the new models (at least not yet), and they're running out of old models.
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Joined: Jan 2007
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shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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There may be a few reasons for this:
1. Not enough resources (raw material and people) to create products in order to satisfy consumers' cravings in this prosperous economy. For most large companies, the solution to the people problem is to go to India and China.
2. Not enough demand for "good" products...it appears to me that many consumers are not discriminating and they will walk into BestBuy or FutureShop and buy anything as long as it is available.
3. Places like BestBuy or FutureShop (where I think the majority of consumer electronics is bought in Canada) has recognized point 2 above and they just don't care to offer a greater selection.
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Re: M60 + Sub
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Posts: 118
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jun 2007
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Quote:
I was wondering about that. It seems like the Canadian disties & dealers aren't getting the new models (at least not yet), and they're running out of old models.
I have read in numerous places that HSU is going the "internet sales" route only! Much like Axiom and Emotiva .. They have decided that it is best to cut out the middle man and deal directly with the customer.. I contacted both Canuk dealers when i was looking to purchase about 2 months ago and all that was left at the time were the VTF3MK11.. From other fourms people who have inquired with HSU for direct sales to Canada say shipping and I would imagine duty and brokerage fee's would kill any kind of "deal" Now Duty I can deal with but it is the unreal rates companies like UPS charge for brokerage fee's that can sour the taste of electronic purchases from below the great lakes.. If you want a HSU in Canada your only choice at the moment, unles you can find Used, is a VTF3 MK11 for around $750+ tax and both company's offer free shipping. HTH
Avdude
Last edited by avdude; 07/01/07 02:37 PM.
Pio VSX1018,LPA-1,M60,M3,Qs8,Vp150,HSU VTF3,,Pio 5080,PS3..
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