 Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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I was at the audio store the other day and was listening to a set of Vandersteen 2CEs I think and the new Quatro series. The sound was great but the imaging was spectacular and this is what got my attention. I began to wonder why I wasn't getting the same separation and imaging from my Axioms. I know understand just how much difference good equipment and room acoustics impacts sound. Enter the new Emotiva amp and processor. Once I set these up at my house, I noticed a vast improvement in the imaging and SQ of my system and more importantly, my Axioms. Poor things had never had anything feeding them where they could perform. Yes, great speakers make the most difference. However, great speakers can only do so much without decent input!! Just an observation. 
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HIT THE DECK! 
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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No controversy, no growth!!! No discussion, no learning!! No disagreement, no change!! 
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I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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What was the room like that you listened to these speakers in? Was it treated for acoustics? did it have bass traps? did it have first reflection zone panels?
If all the above is YES, then, do all that to YOUR room, and then compare.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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"I now understand just how much difference good equipment and room acoustics impacts sound." That was a quote from my first post. Yes, the room had quite a bit of acoustical treatment. I believe that all 3 add value-speakers, equipment and room acoustics. Take any one away and it will impact the SQ in a particular room. All I can speak to is my experience at my house and the listening rooms at the audio store. When I added different equipment at my house with the same Axiom speakers and room acoustics, it made a world of difference in the sound. The Axioms came to life and performed the way they were designed to perform. And they could probably sound even better if I treated the room differently with bass traps, etc. I realize that the rooms at the store are setup to sound the way they do. I'm just trying to get more of what I heard with what I have.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Rick
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Charles, You are in quality/process improvement. So please put your Six Sigma black belt on and provide your measurements to back up your claims  .
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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well, if you really want see if you are "missing out" on something, you could take your mains (whatever they may be) to the audio store and see if they will let you do a double blind test in their acoustic room. Although I highly doubt it because it would be detrimental to all other customers in that store going "who the heck is Axiom and why do they sound so much better than those other expensive speakers?" 
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My reading of it is not that Charles is comparing to the store as much as he is comparing his previous equipment to his new equipment.
Search on "audio memory" to find my views on this...
Last edited by kcarlile; 08/14/07 10:00 PM.
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Ken, Thanks. That is exactly all I am saying or doing. Going to the audio store did one thing for me-gave another benchmark of what I could be hearing vs. what I was hearing. I knew I had the right speakers so I changed out my amp and processor and it made a huge difference. That's all I'm saying !!! MAN!!!!! Is there an IED out there or what???? Look, it was a benefit for me and AS I SAID BEFORE--changing my equipment out brought my Axioms to life. Hearing what I heard at the store was a factor in that. PERIOD!!! Ya'll have no mercy!!!!
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Oh, you think that'll end it? Ha. 
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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What's an IED?
So besides changing out your gear, what else changed? Did you turn up your new gear more than your old gear?
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Quote:
What's an IED?
Improvised explosive device
Just an observation, but this thread took off in the wrong direction in a hurry. My interpretation, which had already been cleared up, is that he realized there was more to be had from his Axioms and by upgrading his equipment, he achieved that. From some of the posts, you would think he was taking Axiom through the ringer. Sometimes I wonder if folks actually read the posts before responding.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Is all this adoration for 2 channel improvement? What a difference you must hear!! The double-blind testing to prove your point is next of course? Listen, if you enjoy your new boxes, that's what counts. Just leave a little room to consider how powerful your mind is...
Epic 80 / SVS PB13 Ultra
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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I have a Mitsubishi 65" Diamond HD. It has a 200 watt amp, a bunch of speakers in there and sounds great. Sometimes, I don't bother turning on the 3 Yamaha 2 channel amps, the big Onky M504 amp, the processor and the sub. I still have a pair of Thiel CS 3.6s up front, a center channel, 2 QS8s on the sides and a pair of Michaura M55s in the back.
The Mitsubishi sounds terrific. When I do NOT turn on the 7.1 system, I still hear sound coming from the sides and back. All those drivers become passive resonators.
I'm sure my Mits sounds better in that room than it would by itself, after all it has all those other speakers vibrating away and contributing to the rich enveloping sound I enjoy without paying for a single additional watt of electricity.
The point is, when you audition speakers in an audio salon, unless they are the only speakers in the room, you are not only hearing those speakers, but all the speakers in the room. Just a thought.
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
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I certainly don't think he's trashing Axioms. Even if he was, it wouldn't bother me. I think people should be free to speak their minds. We can always challenge them of course . I am simply trying to understand what other factors changed besides his gear.
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One last thought. The difference in the SQ is on both 2 channel and surround 5.1. It isn't about the loudness, although I can say that there is more available volume than before but that isn't my main concern. The difference is in the separation, imaging, depth (especially bass), just an overall stronger presence in the room. Look, I'm not an expert and really don't care about what the audio store had for sale. What I care about is that hearing a difference for whatever reason convinced me to do what I've been wanting to do for a long time-get some better equipment-separates to be exact!! And I'm quite happy and content with this change until I do my next upgrade on acoustics or whatever it might be. That's all that matters anyway, isn't it???
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2X6,
Those are some interesting comments that you made about the speakers resonating. How do we test that?
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Where did anyone get the idea that I was trashing Axioms. Not at all. Don't read something into what isn't there. Read my posts. I love my Axioms. I have M22s, M3s, M60s and QS8s. I said that these changes brought them to another level that I knew they were capable of but was not there before. Only change was going from a Yamaha 657 to Emotiva LMC / LPA combo.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Quote:
What I care about is that hearing a difference for whatever reason convinced me to do what I've been wanting to do for a long time-get some better equipment-separates to be exact!! And I'm quite happy and content with this change until I do my next upgrade on acoustics or whatever it might be. That's all that matters anyway, isn't it???
I'm really happy for you. But that's not all that matters to me as an engineer. I'm trying, really hard, to understand why/how some people hear differences amongst various receivers and amps. I believe the differences are related to different volume levels. If you operate two amps of radically different designs and price ranges well within their spec and at the same output power level, I don't believe you will be able to tell the difference between the two.
So perhaps you were operating your old equipment to the point where it was distorting or you are operating your new equipment at a higher power level than the old equipment and enjoying it more.
Please don't let this post spoil your new-found listening experience. Like I said, I am simply trying to understand.
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You say you hear a difference then it is so, who in the heck can say it isn't. They are not in the room with you. They do not use your ears to hear with. Don't let the measurement geeks get to you, it's been this way since I've been here and I suspect it will always be.
Rick
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Oh, nothing said here will ruin my listening experience, not to worry. I don't have a technical answer and I understand what you're asking or seeking. What I do know is that with both units set at 75db with an SPL meter (Yammi & Emotiva) there is a difference, maybe not in volume, but in the other aspects of SQ. I would much rather listen to the Emotive gear than the Yamaha.
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Quote:
Only change was going from a Yamaha 657 to Emotiva LMC / LPA combo.
There's certainly nothing wrong with that Yammy but I am sure if you are trying to get 90W out of it with the M80s, it may be badly distorting. On the other hand, the LPA should have no problem with 90W since it's rated 225W (clean) into 4 Ohms. Do you think that this may be the difference that you are hearing?
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That's them 'know-it-all's' Rick, you've seen 'em before.
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Quote:
What I do know is that with both units set at 75db with an SPL meter (Yammi & Emotiva) there is a difference, maybe not in volume, but in the other aspects of SQ.
That's very interesting and I have no doubt that you hear a difference. Can you please tell me how big the room is (cubic feet) and how far away from the M80s you took the measurement? That will give me a good idea of how much power you are drawing from the equipment. Thanks.
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I'm sure that is exactly what is happening which goes back to my original issue of getting better equipment so I can have better sound. "Better" is a nebulous word and needs definition but to keep it simple the SQ is much stronger at the same levels.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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I have 60s and a 150 in the front and QS8s for surrounds with a SVS PB12 sub. Small room-1200 cu. ft. that opens into a breakfast area and kitchen so there is no back wall.
We are sitting 14' back. I set my mains at 14' and center at 14.5'
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Ok. So I am assuming that you had only the 60s on when you read 75dB. So according to my very rough calculations, you are putting in less than a watt into each 60. If you had all your speakers going, you had far less than a watt going into each speaker. Now granted, you may have cancellations due to your room geometry and maybe it's not a watt, maybe it's two or three. But I doubt it because I used the anechoic sensitivity for the M60s (89 dB rather than the in-room sensitivity of 93dB). So the power level certainly doesn't begin to explain why you are hearing a difference. We are again no further ahead on this puzzle .
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Charles, Rick and Rick, I'm with you on this one, and jumped on the seperates bandwagon back in January. I've been around music most of my life, play many instruments, sing very well (my dad was better he will tell ya), and can honestly say that my Odyssey mono's make my 80's come to life compared to when I was just using the Denon. You can throw all the engineering and math you want at this, but if your happy and your ears tell the difference, as do mine, then that is all that matters. Sit back and enjoy.
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Mojo wrote:
2X6,
Those are some interesting comments that you made about the speakers resonating. How do we test that?
_____________
I don't know how you'd test that, but it is easy to enjoy it.
BTW, for music, I prefer a nice 2.1 channel stereo to either 5.1 or 7.1.
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Quote:
The point is, when you audition speakers in an audio salon, unless they are the only speakers in the room, you are not only hearing those speakers, but all the speakers in the room. Just a thought.
In the sense that each object in the room changes its acoustic signature, yes I'd agree. But if you're saying the the sound waves emanating from the active speakers are causing sympathetic vibrations in the drivers contained in inactive speakers and that those vibrations cause excursion significant enough to be audible, then I'm going to have to doubt it.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Charles, I'm delighted that you are enjoying your new equipment, except that you're making me want to "change" mine also.
bibere usque ad hilaritatem
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Quote:
I was at the audio store the other day and was listening to a set of Vandersteen 2CEs I think and the new Quatro series. The sound was great but the imaging was spectacular and this is what got my attention. I began to wonder why I wasn't getting the same separation and imaging from my Axioms. I know understand just how much difference good equipment and room acoustics impacts sound. Enter the new Emotiva amp and processor. Once I set these up at my house, I noticed a vast improvement in the imaging and SQ of my system and more importantly, my Axioms. Poor things had never had anything feeding them where they could perform. Yes, great speakers make the most difference. However, great speakers can only do so much without decent input!! Just an observation.
Wow Charles,
I've just viewed this thread and am a little shocked at some of the negative responses!
I'm with you 100%...My Emotiva UT Series has taken my HT Audio experience a Quantum Leap Forward compared to my previous Sony Elite receiver (that wasn't too shabby before)! What you heard in your separate set up enhancement is REAL!! I've experienced the Same Improvements and feel Most will with whatever speaker systems used!
Wait till you start hearing the audio "improvement" findings the A1400-8 will make!
Ted
Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!
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A quote from Ian "Over the years I have always found the sound differences between amplifiers to be subtle when compared to the differences found in speakers. Hence if budget is a concern you are probably better to cut a little deeper on the amp side. The main reason for this is that amplifiers (with the exception of some bizarre designs out there) do not colour the tonal balance of the performance nor have any bearing on the off axis response. This does not mean that all amplifiers sound the same but that different factors come into play. Without question the big one is the amount of power available to play dynamic peaks. Wid was commenting earlier about the statement that at normal listening levels you do not need more than a watt or two and I agree with him that this statement is, in practical terms, false; though granted in mathematical terms under certain conditions it can be proved true. The power required to bring home a great performance can get pretty large if you want even just moderate listening levels in a large space without any clipping in the dynamics. The reality is that when most people want to crank up their system they rarely achieve the volume level they truly want; instead they go to the level of clipping distortion in the dynamics that they can put up with (which sounds painfully harsh and loud even if it isn’t).
Rick
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This has been a very interesting discussion. I've learned a few things and whatever the physics involved, scientific parameters or mathmatical concepts are, what I know is this-my system is very different and much fuller and dynamic than before. YES!!!!! Now, I wonder about those $700 cables and interconnects I saw?????????? hahahaha.......
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Charlie - Have you made any room acoustics changes to your listening area? I have a pair of GIK Acoustics Tri-Traps on order and I'll report any improvements after receiving them. Glad that you are enjoying the new amp.
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Quote:
false; though granted in mathematical terms under certain conditions it can be proved true.
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 Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Quote:
The power required to bring home a great performance can get pretty large if you want even just moderate listening levels in a large space without any clipping in the dynamics. The reality is that when most people want to crank up their system they rarely achieve the volume level they truly want; instead they go to the level of clipping distortion in the dynamics that they can put up with (which sounds painfully harsh and loud even if it isn’t).
Well put, Rick!!
This Is the most striking "real-world" gain I've realized with a 125w\ch separate power amp vs a 100w\ch good receiver! My setup can now play Much Louder, w\o distortion, irritation, fatigue or strain with the Emo UT series separates powering it.
The other substantial improvements I've gained in separation, depth, soundstage and bandwidth are probably better related to receiver design compromises rather than just fantastic separates, or a combination of both!!! But it IS REAL!
Ted
Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!
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You also seem to have gained exclamation points!!!
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I have no doubt that when I am listening to music with a measly half watt per channel, that my amplifier is called upon to deliver as much as 40 Watts provided that I am not listening to compressed material. More likely, my amp never has to deliver more than 4 Watts because, unfortunately, most material out there is compressed. I know for a fact that up to 40W, my cheap Denon is completely clean. And I know that it doesn't start clipping until well beyond its rated 90W per channel into 8 Ohms. And you guys also know this because I have been so kind as to conduct the testing and post the data right here on these boards. You also know that my wife and two kids couldn't tell the difference between my wife's boombox and my Denon when connected to M80s and played well within their specs as shown in my May 18th post right here. Obviously when listeners hear differences between their integrated receiver playing at a half watt and their more "esoteric" separates playing at the same level, we can't attribute the sonic differences to power only. It simply does not make sense from my experience. But we can't attribute them to other specifications such as distortion, channel separation, etc because the esoteric gear is not that much different than integrated gear (if there is any difference at all). Now for those that listen at levels of 10 Watts per channel, don't buy a Denon, or an HK or a Yammi. Don't buy an Emotiva, Odyssey or even a Krell. You need to open your wallets and satisfy your thirst for decibels by purchasing the A1400. It's really as simple as that. So it seems we have to keep searching for the technical reasons that lead to sonic differences at low power levels.
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Quote:
... you're making me want to "change" mine also.
Wait 'til you come back east and sit in Stately Swing Manor's Navajome Theatre. I has seppritz!!!11! And fancy blu lazerz that pwns ur rezlooshun.
Neener neener from lolcats.
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now that is some funny shhhhhtufff.
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Does calibrating speaker levels at 75db at different levels on your master volume control impact how "loud" you can go. In other words, if you calibrate with the master volume at 40 vs. 50 (arbitrary settings) and you can go up to say 80 on the master volume, do you have more headroom or volume calibrating at 40? Logically it seems that you would because you would have more volume runout on the control. Does this make any sense? or am I just confused?
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* * *
Obviously when listeners hear differences between their integrated receiver playing at a half watt and their more "esoteric" separates playing at the same level, we can't attribute the sonic differences to power only. It simply does not make sense from my experience. But we can't attribute them to other specifications such as distortion, channel separation, etc because the esoteric gear is not that much different than integrated gear (if there is any difference at all).
Now for those that listen at levels of 10 Watts per channel, don't buy a Denon, or an HK or a Yammi. Don't buy an Emotiva, Odyssey or even a Krell. You need to open your wallets and satisfy your thirst for decibels by purchasing the A1400. It's really as simple as that.
So it seems we have to keep searching for the technical reasons that lead to sonic differences at low power levels.
I think you're on to something Mojo. Perhaps there are more things in audio equipment design, architecture, componentry, materials, Mojo, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
If the first watt is no good who cares how many more like it an amp can produce?
I have a Kenwood KA9100 silver faced beauty of a 2 channel integrated from the golden age of solid state amps ... an amp which not only sounds great (whazzat mean?) but has 2 power meters. Driving a pair of Dahlquist DQM 905s, I rarely see more than a couple of watts output per channel, most of the time bouncing around 1/3 watt.
Yet, that amp sounds better than others I've used in the same room, with the same companion equipment playing the same material at the same volume level.
I dunno why.
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
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The point is, when you audition speakers in an audio salon, unless they are the only speakers in the room, you are not only hearing those speakers, but all the speakers in the room. Just a thought.
In the sense that each object in the room changes its acoustic signature, yes I'd agree. But if you're saying the the sound waves emanating from the active speakers are causing sympathetic vibrations in the drivers contained in inactive speakers and that those vibrations cause excursion significant enough to be audible, then I'm going to have to doubt it.
OK, here we have the triumph of theory over experience. I listen to the Mitsubishi 65" Diamond HD with its internal speakers only and enjoy a sound stage that is frequently as wide as the location of my QS8s and sometimes so wide that material is audible from behind me ... where my M55s are located. But the idea that speakers could act as passive radiators that have an effect on what the listener actually hears does not conform with pmbuko's deeper understanding of the science of it all so I'll just ignore what I hear 'cause I can't really be hearing it.
Thanks pmbk
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HIT THE DECK!
K THX HITTING DECK NAO, BAI
Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica.
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Grammarbot would have a field day with you, bub.
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Next week I'm going to set my Aragon 2005 back up to see if I can discern any difference in sound between that and my Denon 4806, technically there should be no difference since the 4806 has more than enough juice to run my system.
I always felt the amp did add something positive to the equation and with all this debate I'm curious again to see if I can tell a difference.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
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The point is, when you audition speakers in an audio salon, unless they are the only speakers in the room, you are not only hearing those speakers, but all the speakers in the room. Just a thought.
In the sense that each object in the room changes its acoustic signature, yes I'd agree. But if you're saying the the sound waves emanating from the active speakers are causing sympathetic vibrations in the drivers contained in inactive speakers and that those vibrations cause excursion significant enough to be audible, then I'm going to have to doubt it.
OK, here we have the triumph of theory over experience. I listen to the Mitsubishi 65" Diamond HD with its internal speakers only and enjoy a sound stage that is frequently as wide as the location of my QS8s and sometimes so wide that material is audible from behind me ... where my M55s are located.
In my old 5.1 set-up, I had my Sonies acting as rears and my Bose 6.1s for fronts. Never, ever did I hear anything that resembled a 3D soundstage in 2.1 (no matter what I played) even though I had rears. Today, with the M80s and the QS8s, there is no doubt that I have a 3D soundstage in 2.1 with certain recordings. The differences of course can be attributed to room acoustics (since I've significantly changed my basement) and the M80s. I doubt very much that my QS8s are being passively driven somehow and contribute to the soundstage. Of course I suppose I can always remove them to see what the effect would be but that's a real pain in the butt ,
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Looking forward to the results, hero .
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A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
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HIT THE DECK!
K THX HITTING DECK NAO, BAI
K, listen, stop giving that drummer any more crack, K?
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
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2x6, I do not dispute what you are hearing whatsoever. Again, you're going on the assumption that I have an insatiable desire to contradict you at every turn. In fact, I myself have heard (with my own ears, no less) the phenomenon you describe. My M22s, just one pair of speakers, often produce sounds that seem to be emanate from outside the area between the speakers. Even well off the the sides and behind me.
What I did in my last post was dispute your explanation of the phenomenon which I know well. When playing the right material, speakers are perfectly capable of throwing images around the room with no assistance from, to coin a term of convenience, "sympathetic radiators." Heck, my laptop even has an audio control panel where I can make its speakers simulate surround effects. Your theory works for you because it seems plausible. And judging by the beliefs you espouse here, plausibility is enough for you to recategorize a hunch into a fact. You probably haven't even tried removing all the speakers which you believe are adding to the total sound produced by your TV. That's who you are and you certainly have a right to post your beliefs.
When I disagree with you and choose to post about it, it is because I want the information passed on here to be accurate, or at least to reflect reality as closely as possible. I called out your theory -- and it is a theory -- because personal experience shows me that inactive speakers are not responsible for this effect.
That would be a triumph of experience over theory, would it not?
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Oh, be all logical and stuff.
Logic has no place in consumer electronics.
Last edited by kcarlile; 08/15/07 05:47 PM.
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Logic has no place in consumer electronics.
Is that why BOSE rejects all employee applications from anyone who was a philosophy major? I hear they only hire marketing and psychology majors ...
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To attempt to drag this back on topic, do you guys with outboard amps who switched from receivers (cgolf, SirQ, etc.) think that it makes a difference even at low, low volumes, around 60 dB, maybe a bit less? Or is it just when you start getting up to 75-80dB? (note that this is an honest question, not a setup for a smackdown) Do I need another excuse to spend money? 
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I'm not going to be able to explain this technically or probably to many people's satisfaction. However, even at low volumes, what I have now is clearer, crisper, fuller and more distinct than what I had with my Yamaha receiver. What's interesting to me is that there is only a 35wpc difference between the yamaha receiver amp and the Emotiva amp. A friend of mine told me that the biggest difference (even at lower volumes) was a greater presence of lows / bass because of the stronger amps. He said that this new amp was not as strained as the Yammie amp so it had more headroom to push the lows. I'm sure I'm losing something in the interpretation but when he told me it made sense. There is a stronger presense of lows with this new amp which may be a key reason for everything else. The sound seems to have more punch than before (not a good description). Again, all I know is that I would much rather listen to the Emotiva combo than the Yamaha receiver.
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cgolf, I'm not going to speculate on whether or not you hear a difference. I'll take your word for it. Your friend's explanation about "stronger amps" and "more headroom" leave much to be desired, however. At any given volume, a watt is a watt, no matter how many more are available. I have to admit, if I had two amps noticed a definite improvement with one versus the other, I'd try really hard verify that difference was actually there and not just in my head. Once verified, however, I could care less why it was better.
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Just to state my position up front, I'm not sure where I stand on the issue.
I've never had a reasonable way to do a proper A/B, but years ago I owned a NAD preamp and 2200PE power amp and things definitely didn't sound as good when I decided I wanted Dolby Surround instead of stereo and moved to a mid-range Technics receiver.
I don't remember there being a difference at low volumes, but at "normal" volumes and louder there was a lack of dynamics (yes, "punch") with the receiver.
There's been mention of a difference in bass, but I'm not sure how reasonable that is these days when powered subs are the norm. In my case, the bass was absolutely "tighter, punchier", but that was with passive sub in-line with my mains....I'm not sure what kind of load it presented.
Again, I've never A/B'd, but I'd buy a separate amp/preamp setup if I were in a larger room. I couldn't justify it at the moment with my room size.
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
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My explanation of what my friend said was probably not accurate and his explanation may not have an ounce of truth or logic to it. I think what confuses / bothers me with any of the pushback or argument in this thread is that how can anyone say that someone is not hearing a difference, if they say they are, regardless of what's causing it. I've said all along, I don't have the technical expertise to explain the differences in what I'm hearing. But I know what I'm hearing vs. what I was hearing, period. I don't know that I really care why, I just care that what I have now is much better than what I had before. Logically to me, it makes perfect sense. I understand that wpc are wpc just like golf clubs are golf clubs but there are differences in both equipment (amps) and golf clubs. I'm getting real off track here!!!!!
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Quote:
To attempt to drag this back on topic, do you guys with outboard amps who switched from receivers (cgolf, SirQ, etc.) think that it makes a difference even at low, low volumes, around 60 dB, maybe a bit less? Or is it just when you start getting up to 75-80dB? (note that this is an honest question, not a setup for a smackdown)
Do I need another excuse to spend money?
When I switched from the 3805 to the Outlaws (see sig) for my mains, I heard no difference of any kind in SQ at low volumes. I'd approximate that there was difference from about 80db onward in terms of cleanliness and 'punch'.
Epic 80 / SVS PB13 Ultra
Denon 3805 / M2200 Outlaw Monos /
Sammy 55" LED
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That's what I needed to hear. Now I can go spend that money on computer parts--errr... I mean save my money.
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Quote:
What's interesting to me is that there is only a 35wpc difference between the yamaha receiver amp and the Emotiva amp. A friend of mine told me that the biggest difference (even at lower volumes) was a greater presence of lows / bass because of the stronger amps. He said that this new amp was not as strained as the Yammie amp so it had more headroom to push the lows. I'm sure I'm losing something in the interpretation but when he told me it made sense. There is a stronger presense of lows with this new amp which may be a key reason for everything else. The sound seems to have more punch than before (not a good description). Again, all I know is that I would much rather listen to the Emotiva combo than the Yamaha receiver.
There isn't just a 35W/channel difference. The Emotiva, as I said before, is rated a clean 225W/channel into 4 Ohms. The Yammi is rated 90W/channel into 8 Ohms. That is a tremendous difference IF you like listening "loud".
And I know what you mean by "punch". But darn it all, if you are listening at a half watt per channel, all that gobbledegook that your friend talked about should not matter. I'd love to know what accounts for the difference that you are hearing (which by the way I don't dispute).
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At any given volume, a watt is a watt, no matter how many more are available.
Well, not according to Schroedinger. Maybe watts are afraid to come out and play because they know their limit . What we need is a quantum physicist to calculate amplifier eigenvalues for the wave equation .
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If everything else is equal (if possible), and 2 different amps were both at a volume level of 75dB, would / could there be any difference in SQ??
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Well, if everything else is equal, and two different cars are producing 200 bhp, would/could there be any difference in driving quality ?
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I think that's the heart of the question. Some people say yes, other people say no. Until there's double blind abx testing, there's no way to know for sure. Of course, that seems to be invalid to some, or they just ignore that it's the best way to try these things out.
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Yes, I think there could be. A Hummer vs. a Lexus. A truck or car with poor suspension vs. a brand new one, etc. etc. but then everything else isn't equal.
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...but then everything else isn't equal.
That's right. The trick is understanding what is meant by "everything else is equal".
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A 4cyl in a Corvette versus an LS3 in a Corvette
=
Denon 2805 versus an Odyssey mono's
Why would anybody want a Vette with muscle, its all the same.
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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With cars, horsepower is horsepower, but there's also torque, suspension, gear ratios, etc. Using cars to buttress an "amps sound different" argument is therefore completely useless. Now, you could definitely argue for the pride of ownership factor.
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Hey everyone! Jack is composing a reply! Let's all be real quiet and wait for the resident esteemed philosopher!
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
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Try this one: it's that switch in a ZR-1 that changes the engine from 250 to 400 HP. Do you need to turn that switch for everyday driving? Sure, if you're commuting at 120 MPH. Not if you're just doing 30-40 MPH.
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Quote:
With cars, horsepower is horsepower, but there's also torque, suspension, gear ratios, etc. Using cars to buttress an "amps sound different" argument is therefore completely useless. Now, you could definitely argue for the pride of ownership factor.
We agreed on "everything else being equal". That includes torque, suspension, gear ratios, etc .
Amps also have sub-systems as much as cars do. Each sub-system is governed by input, output and processing specifications just like every car's sub-system. Torque and horsepower are as related as power, voltage and current in an amp.
Now, two cars can have the exact same specs and yet one may be more preferable to drive. And it all boils down to the fact that "user experience" in a car is not "specifiable". Amps on the other hand are very specifiable. There is nothing "touchy feely" about the electrons coming out of an amp .
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Hey everyone!
Jack is composing a reply!
Let's all be real quiet and wait for the resident esteemed philosopher!
We gonna be waiting a long time... The only one slower than Jack is John.
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We gonna be waiting a long time... The only one slower than Jack is John.
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
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Quote:
My explanation of what my friend said was probably not accurate and his explanation may not have an ounce of truth or logic to it. I think what confuses / bothers me with any of the pushback or argument in this thread is that how can anyone say that someone is not hearing a difference, if they say they are, regardless of what's causing it. But I know what I'm hearing vs. what I was hearing, period.
Charles, I'll do my best to try to answer your question. If anyone disagrees, I have no problem with that. My only hope is that you'll, at least, understand the point I'm trying to make.
First, if anyone has said that you don't perceive a difference, they are mistaken. The question remains, is that perception accurate or not. The human senses are notoriously unreliable. Ask any police officer about the reliability of eye witness accounts.
The reason they aren't always reliable, is because the senses are easily influenced by our brain which is full of subconscious biases, expectations, hopes, fears, distractions, etc. The reason you hear so much about double blind testing is because DBT is an attempt to eliminate as many of those factors (all of them if possible) which can, and do, subconsciously influence our senses.
That being said, if you perceive a difference, and make a buying preference based on that perceived difference, nobody can or should argue with your choice. But, based on anecdotal sensory perception alone, stating categorically that there IS a difference is controversial. I hope that explains how saying "I hear a difference" doesn't actually prove there is one, and causes some to say "not so fast."
With apologies for my redundancy, if the phrase "trust your ears" means when you hear something you like, or prefer, then that is the choice for you, I most heartily agree. On the other hand if "trust your ears" meant to imply that ones senses are infallibly correct, I must disagree.
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Quote:
Hey everyone!
Jack is composing a reply!
Let's all be real quiet and wait for the resident esteemed philosopher!
Oh sure! Don't put any pressure on me or anything. I'm gonna have to block what I'm doing. Sheesh! 
Nothing profound, and nothing you haven't heard before. Just trying to respond to Charles' question/confusion.
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Regarding being slow with my replies: I'm a very important person. My sage wisdom is constantly being sought by the multitudes who constantly interrupt me with telephone calls, and knocks on my door. (All that is code for "Dennis calls me all the time"  )
Jack
"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
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Jack,
I understand and agree 100%. Perception vs. reality is........well that's another thread!!! I also understand about DBT to really get the actual measurements of differences if any. Truth is when I put down $1000 for audio equipment or whatever, I hope, want, expect, will get some difference. No doubt. How much of that is perception--who knows?? What I do know is this----I enjoy this Emotiva setup much more than the Yammie I have (which alone doesn't mean it's any "better") and the SQ is much more to my liking!!! how's that?? Didn't even have to use the word "better"........Although there may be some bloody noses, etc. because of this thread, I have learned a good deal about SQ or at least the opinions and variables of such. Thanks.
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1. I think the most interesting difference between separates and the receivers I've owned is at low volumes where there is no question but that the amp section of an Onkyo 797 is adequate. Why then do some outboard amps sound better?
I have a friend who 'upgraded' from his Denon to the 200 w Outlaw monoblocks. The sound quality did NOT improve. I'd say the sound quality got worse. (I like Outlaw products, have nothing against them and wish them well - I've owned some myself which I loved - not the monoblocks).
On the other hand, I have a friend who upgraded from a Denon receiver to Parasound Halo separates. Big difference.
My Big Brute Yamaha M80s made a big difference.
As to pmbuko's point, as to whether the sound stage is huge because my surround speakers are passively resonating or not, I dunno - I'm certain that the effect is caused by the presence of those speakers. If not, hey folks, we don't no stinkin surround and back speakers, we just need some ventrioquist drivers in our TV box.
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Actually, other than certain people, this thread was pretty polite and nicely argued. We'll see if it's over...
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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ya gotta luv it when we all get along, even though we disagree, ha ha lol
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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Shut up.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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axiomite
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Quote:
Jack,
What I do know is this----I enjoy this Emotiva setup much more than the Yammie I have
And that, my friend, is all that matters. Nuff said.
Jack
"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Quote:
Shut up.
LOL!
Jack
"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
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connoisseur
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Quote:
Well, if everything else is equal, and two different cars are producing 200 bhp, would/could there be any difference in driving quality ?
Now you're getting in my area of expertise. And yes, absolutely. HP is nothing more than a calculation representing torque over time. Where the power is made in the RPM range makes a world of difference on the track, or just putting around.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Quote:
HP is nothing more than a calculation representing torque over time. Where the power is made in the RPM range makes a world of difference on the track, or just putting around.
We agreed on "everything else being equal". That would include the torque vs. time curve .
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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I'm going with my ZR-1 analogy. Or maybe the Bugatti Veyron.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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connoisseur
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Then your comparative analogy no longer works Mojo. WPC or HP…. Both apply. The amp outputs WPC while the IC engine outputs HP. WPC is also a calculation derived from current (or comparatively speaking, torque).
So in other words, you can not use the HP comparison with the qualifier that everything else is equal. If you do, then you must also use that same analogy with the amplifier. And if you do, then what’s the point in continuing with this discussion, because the two amplifiers supplying the same WPC (with everything else being equal) would be two identical amplifiers. Two identical amplifiers dam well better sound identical.
Now you could assume I’m intentionally being argumentive, but I’m not. I’m trying to make a point that two amplifiers with seemingly comparable specs, could have two very different sounds. Same holds true with the engine.
I can absolutely guarantee that two engines with different torque curves, but identical peak HP, will have very different ET’s and a very different “feel” when driving.
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Ted, if your comment about being "shocked" wasn't said in a joking or sarcastic mood, keep in mind that an audio board is around to dispense accurate information when technical issues arise and not simply to be congenial and congratulatory. When observations are made, although with all sincerity, that don't even have a connection with the amplification process(e.g., "soundstage")it has to be suspected that all variables, especially volume, weren't held equal or that some wishful hearing was also involved. Similar statements made prior to the double blind part of tests have collapsed once the name plates and price tags have been concealed. A recent article in The Audio Critic was linked in replying to a DBT question and very briefly summarizes some basic truths about audio electronics which are also relevant here: "Electronic Signals Paths Do Not Have a Personality!" .
-----------------------------------
Enjoy the music, not the equipment.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Quote:
...because the two amplifiers supplying the same WPC (with everything else being equal) would be two identical amplifiers. Two identical amplifiers dam well better sound identical.
Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you. Read over my posts. I've been laughing all day over this. .
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Quote:
When observations are made, although with all sincerity, that don't even have a connection with the amplification process(e.g., "soundstage")it has to be suspected that all variables, especially volume, weren't held equal or that some wishful hearing was also involved.
I can't remember who pointed us to this but according to the author, people who don't believe that signal paths have personalities have deep-rooted psychological problems .
I can see anyone who has a little bit of venture capital and doesn't mind taking a small risk can make a ton of money in this business. It would probably help to have a psych degree too .
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Quote:
I can see anyone who has a little bit of venture capital and doesn't mind taking a small risk can make a ton of money in this business. It would probably help to have a psych degree too .
Hmmmm ... thinking ... thinking ...
O.K., I've decided now is the time to debut my new line of ultra-high-grade audio components ...
Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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You should name your company MCB Audio, and all your models should be be named with the prefix MCB, e.g. MCB-1 for your first amp. What's it stand for? Why, More Cow Bell, of course.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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axiomite
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Nah, the world doesn't need any more TLAs. Just call your new company Placebo Sound and have done with it.
Just curious, why do we believe that soundstage has nothing to do with amplification ? I agree it's unlikely that you would get enough phase distortion from any decent receiver/amp to make a difference (although I wonder if any modern electronics have 20 KHz filters that could play with phase at sub-20 KHz frequencies), wouldn't crosstalk / isolation levels have an effect ? I have also heard that noise levels can impact soundstage at low listening levels, although that was an unsupported opinion.
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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No John, all electronics are the same, whether you stuff everything into one little receiver or use the best components in spacious seperates, there is no difference.
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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What are the technical characteristics of an amplifier that define "soundstage"? And what are acceptable limits for human ears? Phase response is apparently a non-issue in solid state amps but I know for a fact (and from experience) that tube amps require a lot of care to minimize delays. I've also heard that channel separation of 30dB is more than acceptable for our ears. I don't know if this is true as I have never researched it. But it's not uncommon for amps to have a channel separation of at least 90dB. What most of us know/believe is that the weakest links in objective measurements are the speakers and the environment. Some audiophiles cringe when they read a THD spec on an amp of 0.05% and look for a better amp. They forget that a typical speaker has a THD of 5% throughout most of the audible frequency band at real world listening levels. And I feel sorry for those that crank their systems because speaker THD rises to the point where the ears get over-whelmed with distortion. And most speaker sonic attributes are forever changed when pushed too hard. Take a look at the phase response of all speakers out there. It's not uncommon for the phase to vary between +/-45 degrees. I would love to see a receiver that compensates for a speaker's phase response. Add the room to the system equation and you have a God-awful mess on your hands . I guess technologies like Audyssey are trying to address this but it will take at least two decades I'm sure before affordable systems that can totally compensate become avaialable. We created this mess; we will have to bail ourselves out. This wasn't a problem 131 years ago when music lovers had only the choice of listening to live venues. This is just another fine example of how, throughout our history, we've sacrificed quality for convenience and safety.
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axiomite
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I always wondered if having more room for the electrons to mingle made a difference in sound quality.
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Like I said in another post, I think the electrons in a "power-limited" amp are afraid to come out and play when they see 4 Ohms staring them in the face.
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old hand
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Quote:
Ted, if your comment about being "shocked" wasn't said in a joking or sarcastic mood...
Hi JohnK,
Well, to some extent of emotional literary expression...it was. However, my zealous support of the OA's (Charles) comments were generously made due to a very similar emotional auditory experience I had. We both exchanged out electronics (receiver to separates) and heard sonic improvements that were immediately noticeable! There's no doubt that this created a more enjoyable, emotional and live experience for both Charles and I...We heard it, it is real. The fact that Charles has a well-recognized and respected HT speaker System (Axioms) and I do not (except for the EP500), puts this shared "subjective evaluation" in better perspective!
I do agree that most perceived sound differences in electronics\speakers are closely associated to db level increments. I carefully evaluate any changes to gear one step at a time and at equal amplitudes. Electrical measurements, double-blind test, equipment interactions are all good and interesting things. But what I really care about is Your signature John, "Enjoy the Music, Not the equipment"!
And when singular equipment changes Do become quantum (may be too strong a word, but it Was substantial) audio performance enhancements, I have to agree with Mojo's reference to this Stereophile Sauer article, " God is in the Nuances "
Thanks for your opinions and point-of-view John. To quote Jim Carey, "It's good...IT's Gooooooooood"!
Ted
Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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axiomite
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Holy Cow. You guys are busy and brilliant. Since JP thinks I'm ignoring him and his blue lasers, I thought I better jump back in just to show that I'm engaged. Aspiring to add value to this conversation is beyond me. However, I do want to express appreciation for a number of things. I think we celebrate too rarely (or perhaps it's just me). I continue to LEARN here, which I enjoy very much. One of my most profound lessons came from an American Native Healer, who reminded me that - at every point in our lives - we are all either students or teachers. Being cognizant of your role in the moment leads to a satisfying and honorable journey. I want to thank all of you - and especially Jack and Mojo - for being good Teachers. I'd agree with Ken's assessment that the tenor of the conversation has been fundamentally inquisitive and respectful. What a great community! I feel very fortunate. On this topic - as with other issues that tend to cause discord - I'm really quite able to accept and resolve internally the reasoning behind the various viewpoints. It is quite enough - for me - to say that all this stuff is supposed to be fun, that I want my fellow Axiomites to derive joy from this hobby, and that I simply don't know everything. So, I'm not conflicted at all. Jack said: Quote:
The question remains, is that perception accurate or not.
Ah, but there's the rub! The notion of "Accuracy" inherently inserts Science as the arbiter of satisfaction. On a pretty basic level, I'm not yet ready to subscribe to the Church of Science. Now, before I'm impaled with forceps or ignited on a bunson burner (or whatever fate befalls "Faithists"), let me digress just a little.
Isn't it true that what we know as "Modern Science" has only been around for a fraction of human existence? Isn't it also true that there continue to be new scientific discoveries? How can we then reasonably assert that we are able to measure everything that we "know" or even know that it needs measuring?
Mojo said Quote:
What we need is a quantum physicist to calculate amplifier eigenvalues for the wave equation
Maybe! Seriously.
I guess I just don't yet believe that we - as humans - are capable of knowing the scope of what we don't understand.
For me, Science remains a valuable lens through which to view our world. But not the only one. I am ill-equipped to engage all of you in a Faith v. Reason debate, but I am content to know that wisdom and understanding can come from many perspectives.
cgolf said Quote:
Perception vs. reality is........well that's another thread!!!
Actually, I don't think it is another thread.
And:Quote:
I enjoy this Emotiva setup
As Jack said, I think that's all that "matters". Congrats. And thank you for spawning another insightful discussion.
Mojo imparted Quote:
This is just another fine example of how, throughout our history, we've sacrificed quality for convenience and safety.
Effing Brilliant! Thank you!
I am very much enjoying, but have not yet fully digested and analyzed, the "God is in the Nuances" article.
bibere usque ad hilaritatem
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connoisseur
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I read the Audio Critic Article that JohnK linked to and note that the writer expresses exactly the tone and content of the great and accepted wisdom that all amplifiers sound the same subject to the proviso - all things being equal. Now, I assume that we're not really reducing comparisons to only identical units as that condition would tend to reduce all tests to a tautological and meaningless exercise - except for quality control of course. Here is the intro piece to which JohnK linked: Quote:
Every low-distortion electronic signal path sounds like every other. The equipment reviewers who hear differences in soundstaging, front-to-back depth, image height, separation of instruments, etc., etc., between this and that preamplifier, CD player, or power amplifier are totally delusional. Such differences belong strictly to the domain of loudspeakers. Depending on the wave-launch characteristics, polar pattern, or power response of the loudspeaker (those are overlapping concepts), the stereo presentation of the program material can vary greatly. It cannot vary as a result of the properties of a normal (i.e., low-distortion) electronic signal path. The only exception I can think of would be totally inadequate channel separation (less than, say, 30 dB) between the left and right channels of a stereo device, which is hardly ever the case—and certainly not when high-end components are being discussed by said reviewers.
Beware, therefore, of electronic audio components with a personality. If they have a personality, they are either defective or the brainchild of a reviewer without accountability.
Now, clearly this is the mantra, the clear and barbed statement of the orthodox position here. We have heard variations on this theme suggesting that anyone whose experience suggests a different result only thinks they hear a difference and that perceived difference is the consequence of psychological factors rather than any quality inherent in the equipment.
Clearly an amplifier produces an output which can be measured according to various parameters. I am not an engineer and have no background in engineering. I understand that what I'll call the 'engineer's' position assumes these measurable variables are sufficient to describe the entire range of performance of an amplifier when it comes to amplifying a complex wave form which is music. May I assume that when engineers test an amplifier and measure its characteristics they are not doing so with a complex wave form? If so, the assumption must be that the test signal is sufficiently analogous to music such that measurements of a reduced set of parameters will be sufficient to describe the performance of an amp when the amp is called upon to do more than amplify a test signal.
It seems to me, and again, I'm not an engineer and therefore I am more modest in my contentions, that engineers make certain assumptions which may or may not be true.
Then there are people who claim to hear a difference. Engineers cannot measure or even identify the processes at work when it comes to the operation of the greatest sound processor in the universe ... that messy, gelatinous, crenelated, wet 1350 gram lump of mystery that resides in most crania.
Proponents of the orthodox view seem to hold, and correct me if I'm wrong, that engineers measure every significant, meaningful characteristic of an amplifier. I don't know if this is true or not. Of course, an engineer can say, "you don't know if it is true or not because you don't know enough," and they would be correct.
However, the assumption that they know everything that is knowable about an amp's ability to reproduce a complex musical wave form is similarly suspect.
Clearly, if someone believes the orthodox reductionist and positivist contention, then selection of an appropriate amplifier is easy. Select one which is reported to produce the desired output in watts per channel at an acceptable distortion level ... one which is equal to or less than the distortion characteristic of the speaker, has adequate controls, aesthetic appeal and low price.
Now, my experience suggests that the orthodox position is inadequate to account for the observable variations in the ability of amps to reproduce music. The problem is that the measuring device, the human brain/auditory system does not have measurable specs which measure soundstage, tone, timbre, bloom, blatt, or any of the qualities which some folk value in their sound equipment.
Some may say that since these qualities are not measurable, they don't exist. Philosophically, this is a suspect proposition.
I use separates. I'm pretty happy with my systems. I have had many receivers over the years. I liked some, and did not like others. For instance, my Onkyo 797 was good. My Technics SX 940 which I picked up for a bit over a hundred dollars sounded better. (compared as to 2 channel music reproduction) in my room, to my ears, using the same source component, etc., etc. Why? I wouldn't even presume to know the answer to that, except to say that when I open a receiver and look at its amplifier section, or open an amplifier I see many components, each of which plays some part in the process. It seems to me that architecture, design, component quality, interaction between those components play some part in the output.
I don't believe an amp is a black box with receives a signal from a wire and which delivers an amplified signal out into another wire which signal is identical to the input in all regards except for wattage.
Your opinion may differ.
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
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axiomite
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Thanks to Theo and 2x6. Great stuff. Quote:
I don't believe an amp is a black box with receives a signal from a wire and which delivers an amplified signal out into another wire which signal is identical to the input in all regards except for wattage.
But should it be?
bibere usque ad hilaritatem
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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axiomite
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>>The only exception I can think of would be totally inadequate channel separation (less than, say, 30 dB) between the left and right channels of a stereo device, which is hardly ever the case—and certainly not when high-end components are being discussed by said reviewers.
This would probably be a good time to point out that the "alleged differences in sound" discussed here have rarely been between two sets of high-end equipment, but rather when going from a typical AV receiver to what would be considered "high end" electronics.
My take on all this is that as a group we need to arrange access to the equipment required to perform proper A/B testing of electronics, or we are going to be stuck tossing theories back and forth forever. Are there any inexpensive off-the-shelf solutions for simultaneously switching line-level inputs and speaker outputs ? Do we feel that using splitter cables to drive both amplification chains simultaneously and switching speakers between the outputs of one amp and the other would suffice ?
Everyone has their own beliefs right now, but without real A/B testing at matched SPLs we're going to have a tough time making any more progress.
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
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devotee
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OP
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Since I started this thread with a brief expose of my experiences at a "high end" audio shop and my comments about what I heard, I want to make a couple of observations. I never expected, intended or even thought about this taking off like it did. For me, the ride has been very positive and entertaining.
In my second post on this thread I said, "No controversy, no growth!!! No discussion, no learning!! No disagreement, no change!!" That was not meant to be idle talk or just words that I threw out. I believe that completely and I believe it has happened to some degree here. That to me is what one of the goals of this forum is--to learn and understand better one of the topics that is dearest and closet to each of our hearts and minds.
I am not an engineer and many times don't care about all the scientific variables that are involved or at work with sound, amplification, etc. Sometimes I do. What I care about and get excited about is what I hear. Yes it's interesting to know the facts but it's also fun to just hear the music, sounds and differences and let my mind decipher why.
Having said all that, I thank everyone for your thoughts, opinions, facts and observations on this and all other issues in this forum. It has helped me tremendously. We all want answers and this is a good place to get some.
I work with processes and metrics. Measure everything. But to me the funnest part is the "why" of the measurement and changing something after finding the "cause" of a problem. I had a problem (not enjoying my system the way I thought I should) and found what I believed to be the cause (equipment and room acoustics) and I corrected it-at least to some degree for the time being until I improve it some more (added equipment that gave more of the sound that I was looking for).
This is like golf (actually life). You never get there. You may meet goals but there are always more goals. Best is only limited by resources and skills and information.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Hello Bridgeman ... were it only that easy! In my experience, I've had to live with a new piece of equipment for a while before I could determine whether I liked more. I think an obvious difference would speak to a defect or gross qualitative difference.
Someone said it's all in the nuances. Does a system tend to provide you with more WOW musical moments than another.
Now, I can hear the snickers ... 'wait, I'm going for my WOW meter ... oh no! I can't find it!'
Maybe an A/B test would work. dunno. I'd like to sign up.
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Quote:
Proponents of the orthodox view seem to hold, and correct me if I'm wrong, that engineers measure every significant, meaningful characteristic of an amplifier. I don't know if this is true or not. Of course, an engineer can say, "you don't know if it is true or not because you don't know enough," and they would be correct.
The orthodox view is not based on measurements, charts, or graphs. It's based on the results of blind listening tests.
Our own Alan, himself, admitted to being a firm believer in significant amplifier differences until he participated in enough double blind listening tests to convince him otherwise. I haven't had the opportunity to participate in a true double-blind listening test, so it takes faith on my part to take his word for it -- along with the words of most others who have taken part in such tests.
I suppose it all comes down to a difference in comfort levels whether you choose to believe the words of those who have tested their assertions over those who have not.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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axiomite
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I DO love this guy! Quote:
Ah, but there's the rub! The notion of "Accuracy" inherently inserts Science as the arbiter of satisfaction. On a pretty basic level, I'm not yet ready to subscribe to the Church of Science.
Tom brings up a very important point. Science, or scientific study, certainly isn't accurate 100% of the time. It, too, is fallible. How many times has "scientific study" said one thing, only to say a few years later, "OOPS! We now know more than we did then, so forget 'that', it's no longer true, but 'this' is.
However, it is my opinion, that science has a higher probability of being accurate than the very fallible human senses. That, in no way, should be interpreted as my saying that the human senses can't be accurate. However if a finding reached by scientific means contradicts a finding based solely upon the human senses, my tendency is to trust the scientific rather than the anecdotal.
The problem, for me, arises when someone takes a specific subjective anecdotal experience (I heard a difference in sound between two receivers), and morphs it into a general statement of objective fact (there IS a difference between the sound of electronics).
I would disagree with one part of Tom's statement. He says "The notion of "Accuracy" inherently inserts Science as the arbiter of satisfaction." I feel the notion of accuracy inherently inserts Science as the arbiter only of accuracy. I don't know if I'm correct or not, but I perceive accuracy as being objective, and satisfaction as being subjective. Science can tell us that speaker A has a flatter (more accurate?) frequency response than speaker B, but, being perverse as I am, I very well might prefer (be more satisfied by) the sound of speaker B.
We humans, unfortunately, tend to infer that, if science says something is accurate, we all should prefer it. But, as we all know, the human experience is subjective not objective.
As I've said before, and am about to, redundantly, say again, I no longer feel the need to equate good and bad with like and dislike. At my age, I'm blissfully free to consider "fantastic" what everyone else perceives as awful, and loathe that which the entire world proclaims to be "wonderful."
Tom, that was one "fantastic" post!
 
Jack
"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
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I believe that all properly designed amps (pretty much anything you buy today), running within their limits, will sound identical to each other. This has been scientifically proven in various ABX testing, from professionally held sessions such as this one - where Ian Masters indicates the amps ranged from $200 mass-market types to $12,000 tube monoblocks – to in-home tests such as the one from a recent board member, where a mini-system was compared to a mid-end receiver driving Axiom M80s. I remember reading about an audio dealer, from California I believe, who offered $10,000 to anyone who could consistently pick out a ‘better’ amplifier from a blind ABX held at his shop. Of course, nobody ever took home the prize. Unfortunately, I could not find a link to it with a quick Google search; however, I did find this one which is a similar set-up offering $10,000 to anyone who can pick out the ‘better’ car amplifier. To those who think that perhaps Science cannot measure everything that affects the music reproduction in an amp, I simply ask: how does one design something more musical if they don’t know how to measure it, or what to look for?
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Quote:
This has been scientifically proven in various ABX testing
I'll make a minor correction here. This has been scientifically supported by various ABX testing...
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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How many of these ABX tests and results from various testing procedures do we need before something goes from supported to proven?
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Ahhhhh, outside of the additional dynamic headroom a beefy separate amp can offer over a smaller package receiver (equal RMS watts, but bigger power supplies), could the sonic differences Charles and I "perceived" to hear have been attributable to just the Pre\Pro (LMC-1) and it's magical digital audio\codec interpretations?  Ted
Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Without going through every argument or discussion again, if amps are pretty much the same-"all things equal", then what you and I are hearing different could very well be from the LMC and how it disperses the signal. Don't know if "disperses" is the right word but you know what I'm saying.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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I'm not pointing to any particular cases referred to in this thread where people indeed hear differences. I'm simply saying that – I believe - if one were to take 2 amps/receivers, set them up properly as to exactly match dB output, and switch them such that the listener does not know which is playing, the sound differences would disappear. It's been stated before, the mind is a powerful thing, and the placebo effect should not be underestimated.
You can test your theory re preamps by connecting the Emotiva amp(s) to your receiver. Match the levels with an SPL meter, and have someone switch the 2. This will take the preamp processor out of the loop. Unfortunately, if this procedure is done manually, there is a lag between switching which brings audio memory into play. However, I believe you have indicated the difference in sound between your receiver and new set-up are dramatic, therefore even if the switch takes 20 seconds, you should still be able to test.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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I have these same discussions with my golfing buddies. Some think you can buy a game with more expensive equipment, others say Garbage!! Truth is, different shafts alone can make a difference so a club is not a club. Same components-head, shaft, grip but different materials, flex, length, etc. Take 2 identical clubs and put them on a machine and there shouldn't be any difference in distance, variation from center, etc. Take 2 identical clubs and put them in the same person's hand and there shouldn't be any significant differences. But take 2 identical clubs and put them in 2 different person's hands and their will be differences. We do hear differences. I don't have the reason why I know there is a difference in SQ and I'm not sure I'll ever know. And do I really care at this point? i have many other much more important things to ponder..............
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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axiomite
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Well, Ted raises a good point, I think. We do tend to fixate on that whole "wire with gain" principle without considering other operations that might be taking place in the signal chain. Quote:
How many of these ABX tests and results from various testing procedures do we need before something goes from supported to proven?
Umm, I guess until they suck the joy out of every individual's user experience? Dan, I honestly mean no disrespect. I am simply looking at the world from a more humanistic perspective. If Charles or Ted derive joy from their experiences, I see no margin - no good - from trying to convince them that they're not having fun because they can't possibly tell the difference. Nobody can prove how they feel.
Jack, you are - as usual - much too kind.
Quote:
I would disagree with one part of Tom's statement. He says "The notion of "Accuracy" inherently inserts Science as the arbiter of satisfaction." I feel the notion of accuracy inherently inserts Science as the arbiter only of accuracy. I don't know if I'm correct or not, but I perceive accuracy as being objective, and satisfaction as being subjective
I think that, in my eagerness to engage, I committed a logical error and did not fully understand the context of your initial comment. When you mentioned "accuracy", I immediately flew to "accurate response/reproduction", which would presumably measure and compare the output against the input (i.e. the typical measurements we see today about THD, separation, noise, etc.). I can see now that you were talking about the accuracy (internal consistency?) of the person's perception (i.e. can the person scientifically verify that particular equipment ACTUALLY sounds better TO THEM when other factors are removed).
Quote:
Science can tell us that speaker A has a flatter (more accurate?) frequency response than speaker B, but, being perverse as I am, I very well might prefer (be more satisfied by) the sound of speaker B.
Critical! Bravo!
I'm still swayed by the notion that the user's emotional involvement in the listening experience is what matters, and that it is impossible to measure that critical and subjective element. I also believe that different people perceive the world in different ways, and that we can't hope to quantify - or have a comprehensive understanding of - those powers of perception.
Just because it "sounds" the same doesn't necessarily mean it "feels" the same.
I'm going to go commune with my crystals and don my tinfoil hat, now.
bibere usque ad hilaritatem
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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I think it almost all boils down to marketing. Look at Bose and how many people buy them and love them. If they're not the worst speakers in the market, they're close to it. It's all about marketing to the senses. Factually, equipment is equipment (yes, yes) but people are all different and that is what sells and makes different sounds. Thank God there are differences and we're not all the same. I like what I hear more than before and I'm stickin to my story!!
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Thanks Tom! Think I'll commune my derier to my HT listening chair, join you in a cold one and enjoy listening to my great theater audio that may really be, not so great, hehe! At least, that is what I heard... Ignorance Is Bliss! Ted
Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Quote:
Ah, but there's the rub! The notion of "Accuracy" inherently inserts Science as the arbiter of satisfaction. On a pretty basic level, I'm not yet ready to subscribe to the Church of Science. Now, before I'm impaled with forceps or ignited on a bunson burner (or whatever fate befalls "Faithists"), let me digress just a little.
Isn't it true that what we know as "Modern Science" has only been around for a fraction of human existence? Isn't it also true that there continue to be new scientific discoveries? How can we then reasonably assert that we are able to measure everything that we "know" or even know that it needs measuring?
I think in a lot of ways, this is the power of science: being proven wrong is an acceptable, even necessary part of it. That's why it's not faith; it's science.
Many people point to disproven hypotheses as evidence that science is no good. But that's far from the truth; it's a necessary part of good, correct scientific investigation to be open to the idea that a hypothesis (not the same as a theory), or even a theory, is wrong. Now, hypotheses generally get promoted to theories when sufficient evidence (lab results, mathematical proofs, observational results, etc) is accumulated. The same occurs with laws, although I think that's probably becoming less of an accepted term; we know that Newton's laws are incorrect at the extremes (very small, very fast, very large).
There's also gabbling about the term "theory." Oh, the "Theory of Gravity," the saying goes... But in science, a theory means a lot more than it does in common usage. It means that it's been tested (independently) by multiple organizations/people/labs/whatever and found to be a correct descriptor of what is observed.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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axiomite
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axiomite
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OK.
I'm still just gonna go drink beer with Ted.
bibere usque ad hilaritatem
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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connoisseur
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I like your style, Mr. Tuttle. I'll have a cold one for you if you ever make it down to Newport Beach, California.
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Joined: Jun 2003
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axiomite
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Much obliged, 2x6. It's a deal.
bibere usque ad hilaritatem
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Tom,
I'm not trying to convince them that they are not having fun, I've just offered up some evidence that supports my belief that amplifiers do not colour sound. It's a very simple electronic process of amplifying what the source sends. Having said that, you'll notice that my music system consists of a tube amp driving a pair of M3s. The purchase was partially nostalgic, but mostly done because the music just seems to sound better while sipping on a 15 year old Macallan, room lighting off, and stairing at the pretty orange glow of the tubes. I A/B'd the tube amp vs a little NAD amplifier and found there was no difference in sound at normal listening levels, in my home, with my speakers. My Engineering mind, however, conceded that I liked the 'emotion' of using the tube amp, so I spent a few extra hundred dollars on it, even thought I know the sound is no better then a much cheaper solid state amp.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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axiomite
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axiomite
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15 year old Macallan and tubes. Sweet I know what you mean. I just, well, I ran out of popcorn and jumped in.
bibere usque ad hilaritatem
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Hey, it's the first time in 6 months I post. I've never been very active here, and needed a break from work so decided to join in. I was hoping some would find the information I posted of value. A visit to the Axiom factory a couple of years ago solidified my views on electronics. The listnening room they use to test and tweak their speakers consisted of a massive old Bryston amp that looked like it had seen a few parties, an old 5 disc Kenwood CD player, and an equally old (Kenwood again?) receiver for the pre/pro. I can often visualise the look of pride on Ian and Joe's faces while listening to their speakers play wonderful music driven by that ratty old front end.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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connoisseur
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Quote:
Tom,
I'm not trying to convince them that they are not having fun, I've just offered up some evidence that supports my belief that amplifiers do not colour sound. It's a very simple electronic process of amplifying what the source sends. Having said that, you'll notice that my music system consists of a tube amp driving a pair of M3s. The purchase was partially nostalgic, but mostly done because the music just seems to sound better while sipping on a 15 year old Macallan, room lighting off, and stairing at the pretty orange glow of the tubes. I A/B'd the tube amp vs a little NAD amplifier and found there was no difference in sound at normal listening levels, in my home, with my speakers. My Engineering mind, however, conceded that I liked the 'emotion' of using the tube amp, so I spent a few extra hundred dollars on it, even thought I know the sound is no better then a much cheaper solid state amp.
Well, if you couldn't hear the difference between the NAD and your tube amp, I'd say you're sipping the wrong single malt. Try a 10 year old Laphroaig. Tastes like it was aged in an old inner tube and so is, of course, the perfect match with a tube amp.
BTW, the M3s with a tube amp is IMO a perfect match. Which tube amp did you get?
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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shareholder in the making
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So basically you're saying he can't trust his ears.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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connoisseur
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I just want to know if Tom and Jack actually talk in person like they have on this post…… Friggin intellectuals
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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axiomite
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Certainly!!! Do you think, in person, I would say "going to" and "because," and then write "gonna" and "cuz" on a forum. Mike, you are no less an intellectual than I ( I can't speaker for Tom). I was reading a recent post of yours (in this thread?) where you were talking about automobile engines. My eyes glazed over, my brain fogged up, and I marveled at your knowledge and understanding. The only difference between our intellects is they are inspired by, and attracted to different things.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Did you bother reading the article I linked? There was an entire group of confidant audiofiles who could not pick out the $12,000 tube monoblocks that was mixed in with a $200 receiver. I appreciate your recomendation for the Scotch, I believe you're also into wines, I'd like to repay the favour by recommending this, a staple for kids who came of age in Canada in the 80's.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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The link has been referenced many times over the years, old news.
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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I fail to see your point
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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Forgot to answer the question: It's a Cayin TA-30.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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connoisseur
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Quote:
Did you bother reading the article I linked? There was an entire group of confidant audiofiles who could not pick out the $12,000 tube monoblocks that was mixed in with a $200 receiver. I appreciate your recomendation for the Scotch, I believe you're also into wines, I'd like to repay the favour by recommending this, a staple for kids who came of age in Canada in the 80's.
I'm sure there are $12,000 tube amps that sound just like any sand based receiver ... you have to aim a bit lower, something like a sweet sounding Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15DT.
Yes, I am particularly fond of the Charles Shaw Shiraz (also known as 2 buck chuck). You just have to let it breathe a bit. Everyone likes a good concord grape juice, Kedem is an excellent choice.
Look, I kick back with a bit of Laphroaig and water, turn the lights down and listen to jazz on the tubie ... I can hear the tube difference, and I don't think it is because the fire bottles are distortion generators (thanks Alan), it's because it sounds ... sweeter, more like live music.
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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shareholder in the making
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2x6, note that your message box is full and that you can't receive PMs until you delete some.
-----------------------------------
Enjoy the music, not the equipment.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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connoisseur
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Quote:
Yes, I am particularly fond of the Charles Shaw Shiraz
Lol, as a side note after visting Seattle it's a 3 buck chuck there. That will be my intellectual, and based on proven research contribution to this topic.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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axiomite
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Oh, you can "speaker" for me if you like, Jack Nice post. Yes, we are quite the mutual admiration society of late. Mike, Jack's right. As I age, I embrace diversity more and more. In this case, the ability to teach and learn in different styles and among different genres. I'm totally with Jack; your comprehensive knowledge of engines and HDMI is deeply humbling. But - for the record - my brain did not "fog up". God loves diversity; otherwise, He wouldn't have made us all so different. I've resolved to savor the moments and the people and allow their experiences to enrich and expand my perceptions.
bibere usque ad hilaritatem
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
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connoisseur
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Quote:
2x6, note that your message box is full and that you can't receive PMs until you delete some.
Boy, that thing was sure full. Sorry bout that
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
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