Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Denon 3808CI – one week later

Instead of boring anyone with why I bought this receiver, I’ll just say that I’ve had some ‘issues’ with four other HDMI equipped receivers within the past year. This is number five for me and it was not without reservations when I bought it. My last receiver was a Marantz SR/8001, so I’ll be referencing the Marantz from time to time. Even with all the issues I’ve had with the Marantz, it was the best sounding receiver I’ve had out of the other HDMI units, plus three others I had the year before last. (my total number of receivers I’ve owned within the past 30 months is eight).

My equipment:

M80’s for mains
M22’s (two) for the center channel
M3’s for surround backs
QS8’s for surround
EP 600 sub
Toshiba A35
Sony PS3
Oppo 970
Oppo 981
Dishnet 635 DVR
DVDO VP50pro
Panasonic PT1000U

General observations:

Some people are infatuated with the weight of a receiver and / or amp, and they feel that one has to go through a right of passage and weigh as much as a small car to be considered worthy. The 3808 isn’t a beast, but it does have some heft to it. It weighs about 39 pounds. It doesn’t feel like a playschool toy, but it’s pretty obvious that Denon cut some corners wherever they could to save costs. Whether that affects sound quality or function isn’t something I can speak to. I’d rather have a receiver that works right with cheap binding posts than one that doesn’t work right with gold plated binding posts. All the control knobs work just fine and feel OK to me. I will say that I like the lay out of the inputs and outputs. They are orientated in a logical order. Even the binding posts are arranged in one row at the bottom of the unit, which makes it easier to tie them off to my rack.

One thing this receiver has that I have not seen on many others, is the ability to run two sets of surround speakers. They share the same amp output, but have additional binding posts for 9.1 systems using four surrounds. I wouldn’t suggest using 6 or 4 ohm surrounds like this, but 8 ohm should be just fine. The receiver also has the ability to set up an additional zone (and possibly two, but I haven’t figured out the limitations of the third). I don’t use this, so I can not speak much to this. Also, if you have a 5.1 set up, you can re-assign the surround back channels to the mains for by-amping. And no, I’m not going to get into that debate. Just know you can do it with this receiver. There are four HDMI 1.3 inputs and one, HDMI 1.3 output. If you want / need two HDMI outputs, you need to jump up to the 4808CI. One thing to keep in mind with two outputs, is you will have a hard time finding an audio processor that will output from both at the same time. It’s usually one or the other, so I see little value with having two live HDMI outputs unless they are both live. There are a slew of other inputs/outputs and if you want to know more about them, I’d suggest you download the owner’s manual.

The 3808CI uses a somewhat dated video processor (Faroudja DCDi), but it doesn’t do too badly with up-converting to 1080P. I use an external video processor, so this aspect wasn’t much of a consideration to me and I have the DCDi turned off. I did do some comparisons to it and my DVDO VP50pro, and will briefly discuss that later.

There are also some other unique features worth mentioning. The 3808 has inputs for USB drives that will read pictures and / or audio files. I have not tried these, so I don’t how well it performs with them. This receiver also has networking capabilities via Ethernet, and this is also how you update its firmware (which worked perfectly for me). If you want, you can stream audio from your PC, but again, I have not messed with this function so can’t speak to it. It also has inputs for an XM radio interface, and no, I didn’t try that either. I use this receiver for movies and on rare occasion, music.

Probably the most attractive feature this receiver has, and one that I feel sets the stage for others to compete with, is its GUI. The GUI has to be the best implemented user interface and set up feature I’ve ever seen. If you can navigate Windows Explorer, you can navigate the GUI. It’s set up similarly. You have the main functions, which have a tree hierarchy. You just move the up/down/right/left toggle to navigate. I will say that some of the features are cleverly hidden and take some time using to remember where they are, but it’s pretty intuitive and not something to be afraid of by any means.

Set up:

Set up was quite painless and in truth, I didn’t even use the manual until after I had completed the basic set up and got everything up and running. I have later read the manual and tweaked a few things, but found the basic set up to get everything set up fairly well. As with most receivers, you just go to the auto set up feature and follow the instructions. Every thing in the GUI you highlight has a brief description telling you what it does (although that can be vague at times).

At first, I had all my components routed into my VP50pro, and then used one HDMI cable to connect the Pro to the 3808. I use banana connectors for my speakers, and found the 3808’s speaker posts snug enough, although the aluminum lining was disappointing. I’d have thought Denon could have at least sprung for copper. Oh well, they work….

The 3808 uses the latest Audysey room correction EQ software and it is also Audysey Pro ready if you like to pay someone for this service. You can position the supplied mic up to eight different locations. My room is pretty small, but I ended up using seven positions anyway (figured it couldn’t hurt). You place the mic at the main ‘reference’ spot in your room first and take the initial set up readings there. The receiver checks for phase, connections and distances. You then move the mic as many times as you want (up to eight total) and it takes readings again for each location. One thing I found irritating is how long this process took. I didn’t time all this, but I know it took me no less than 30 minutes to complete the audio set up. I’d suggest that you make sure the kids aren’t running around making noise and you do it when no one will interrupt you. If during the set up there is extra ambient noise and you need to re-do a position, you get to start from the beginning again (yes, it happened to me). After the set is complete, you can verify the settings and either accept them for memory storage or start over. When completed, I was amazed at how close everything was. The distances were perfect and the channel adjustments were also perfect. This was a first for me… The X-over settings were also perfect. In the past, Audysey did some very odd things to my set up and I would end up changing settings, but not this time. I’ve left everything as is.

For reference, it set up my speakers as follows:

Mains – Large
Center – small / 40
Surround – small / 90
Surround back – small / 60
LFE – LFE (LFE goes to mains, and sub)

After set up was complete, I used my radio shack digital meter and an Avia HD set up disk and checked the channels. I did not feel the need to change anything. Bass and channels were closer than I’ve ever been able to manually set them in the past.

If you wish, you can tweak anything you want, including the Audysey EQ settings. All you do is go into the manual set up, select copy EQ curve and tweak it however you wish and save it as a manual setting (you can do this differently for each input or surround format). I have not felt the need to do this, but I did play with it any way. It’s painless. You can also select several different EQ curves including; Flat, Audysey, Audysey – L/R, or L/R. You can select different X-over setting for each speaker set in increments of 20 up to 80, and then it’s increments of 10 on up. I’d like to see more options, but can live with these.

After you set up the audio parameters, you then have a gazillion other options available for each surround mode (limited to each surround mode’s capability). For example, you can set up any input differently from any other input. You can set up one input for DTS, another for DDPLIIx and another for Neural surround with each having unique channel levels, X-over’s, lip sync delay and different video settings. There is also some unique center channel options like what Denon calls “Cinema Equalizer” which lowers the front channel high frequencies some (similar to THX). There is also a ‘Decompression” setting for compressed audio which does a fine job at reproducing compressed audio like MP3. I found that SD satellite audio is greatly improved by using this feature. There are three different levels for this too.

One thing I have learned with all these functions is that some are not available depending on the surround format. Some formats do not support them, so you just have to play with each to see what you can do with them. DD+ and DD-True HD allow you tweak the heck out them, while DTS is somewhat limited. I’m still figuring this out, so can’t really comment much more on that.

There are simply too many things this receiver can do to detail each one (plus I’m still trying to figure them all out). Considering that, I’m not going to go over all of them….

Video performance:

As I said earlier, I use an external Video Processor, so I have the DCDi bypassed. But out of curiosity, I did some A/B testing to see how well the DCDi works. The VP50pro is arguably one of the best VP’s on the market, so it’s not really a fair comparison, but I have to admit that the DCDi does an admirable job with SD sources. I think anyone other than die hard videophiles would be satisfied with this receiver. The VP50pro definitely outputs a better looking picture, but when I compared the 3808 to the Oppo 981, the differences in video quality are very hard for me to see. So if you’ve seen what the Oppo 981 can do with SD and find that good enough, the 3808 should be good enough for you too.

Sound quality:

I just hate this topic, but suppose I should jot down my opinion anyway because someone is sure to ask. I hate it because everyone has their own idea of what sounds good to them, and without doing a true blind listening test, I don’t think anyone can objectively compare or even pass judgment on how well any piece of electronic does. Keeping that in mind; in direct stereo, pure direct and 7 channel stereo, I find the Denon to sound very good. In fact, just as well as any other receiver I’ve had in this system. The only noteworthy difference I can pick up on between this receiver and my two channel rig with Rotel separates is with what I call, ‘white noise’. This is when the volume control is maxed out without any source playing and you can hear a hiss. I hear nothing with my two channel rig. The Marantz SR/8001 was also silent. The 3808 however has a very slight and almost non-detectable hiss. It’s very slight, but I can hear it. If this is good or bad, I have no idea. Use your own judgment.

I popped in a couple disks that I like to use when doing these very un-scientific listening tests (Pink Floyd, DSOTM SACD, Alison Kraus and Green Day). All I can say is they all sound excellent and I most definitely did not feel wanting for more.

Where I will comment and express my opinion is in regards to how well a surround receiver does with surround playback. Some have done horribly with this while others do OK and then there are others that just sound great. Only the Marantz, and now this Denon have sounded great to me. I suppose Audysey has something to do with this. If I had to choose between the Marantz and this Denon, my pick is the Denon. The bass is just right and not too over powering or lacking. Sometimes I would feel as if there was too much LFE or not enough when using the Marantz, but I don’t get this feeling with the Denon. With the Marantz, I had to use the EP600’s trim control, but I don’t with the Denon. Plus, there’s very little that a person can not do with the EQ curves to tweak this receiver at will, if needed. The Marantz is somewhat limited in this regard.

Remote and discrete commands:

I use a programmable remote, so I haven’t taken the time to mess with the 3808’s remote(s) much, but from the little I have, I think it sucks. Where I am impressed is with all the discrete commands that are available for this receiver. There are so many, that my MX 850 does not have enough panels for all the commands (and it has a bunch). For example; there are discrete commands for adjusting every channel up or down, commands for selecting every surround format, tone controls, EQ controls and so forth. For custom installers, I’m guessing this receiver will be pretty fun for them to set up and I am going to buy a new programmable remote just so I can populate it with all these commands. Way cool….

4 ohm load:

Seeing how I’ve got 4 ohm R, L and center channels, plus 6 ohm surrounds, I need a receiver with some ‘oomph’. The Denon is rated at 130 WPC, and I don’t doubt that it has every bit of that. I tend to watch movies at reference levels, and I’ve shut down a few receivers before. So far, I’ve not had any problems driving my system with this receiver nor have I felt the need to add external amplification. When playing around with multi channel stereo, my SPL meter was bouncing above 100 db’s at a – 10 db on the volume control (it goes to a +18). I didn’t pin the volume or feel the need to do so. It does not get hot to the touch either.

HD audio formats and M-channel PCM:

As with all these new HDMI receivers and using HD/BR players, there always seams to be some limitation to what they will do. I’m almost hesitant to say this, but so far, I have not found any limitations with this receiver. It will accept Multi-channel PCM from my PS3 and A35, including 6.1 and 7.1 discrete sources. It will apply PLIIx to 5.1 sources. You can also adjust the channels at will with these formats and save them to any input. The 3808 will also accept DD +, DD-TruHD, DTS-HD:HR and DTS-HD:Master bitstream formats. If you have a 5.1 source of any of these formats, it will apply either DTS-Neo6 or PLIIx. If you have a 7.1 source of any of these formats it recognizes the formats as discrete and will even light up a little box telling you it is discrete.


I could go on and on, but this is already too long of a report, so if you have any additional questions, just ask and I’ll find the answer.

Pictures to follow.

These are hand held without flash using my Olympus 510 and in RAW format without any post processing. A little blury, but I was in a hurry.

Marantz on top / Denon on bottom





The DVDO's



The GUI with volume control



GUI over a 1080P/24 image



No GUI



EQ / Right / Left

Excellent, Mike! I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your equipment reviews. From the new HD players to receivers you have helped a bunch of us sort out the technology.

sounds great! Looks like this thing will drive my epic 80 system with no problem.

One question I do have, what settings did you have on your 600 before your ran the auto set up?

Thanks for the review. Sounds like a great match for the axiom's

Mike,

Thanks for the review. I look forward to getting a new receiver with advanced features such as this one someday.

I have the volume control set at 50% and trim to off. I'm going off memory, but I think that is the "FLAT" position. After setup, the sub was set to a -9 DB.

No problem with doing these reports guys..... I try to pay back when I can for all the questions I ask here.

Mike, thanks for the great review. Do you know how the Denon compares to the Yamaha RXV2700 or 3800?

Not in depth. I have used a Yamaha before (661), and while I found it to be an OK receiver, I did not like Yamaha's room EQ and find Audysey to be vastly superior. For that reason I decided to not buy another one.

The only other receiver I gave serious thought towards buying was the Onkyo 905 or its sibling, the Integra 8.8. I decided against it because of too many user complaints and the fact that it runs hot to the touch. Plus its VP is altering the color space from 4.2.2 to 4.4.4. I find it troubling for any electronic gear to run hot to the touch because heat kills electronic components. If I really needed a good on board Video Chip, the Onkyo would have been harder to pass up, even with its quirks.

Mother of Pearl that's long.
This will take some time.

Mike:
Thanks for the great review!

I currently have a 3805 & I just wish Denon would hire two guys within that gigantic corporate structure to write and illustrate decent manuals. There's really no excuse to have people complaining year after year about the manuals.

I don't really have any justification for a new receiver, but if I did the 3808 would be on the short list.

Quick question: Two odd little things I would like to see on my next receiver are the ability to name inputs (I still lose track of what weird thing I am feeding in on the "DBS" input on my Denon) and a sleep timer.

Any chance the Denon has one of those or both?

Nice review Mike, if I hadn't already popped for the 4806 this receiver would be at the top of my list.

Mark, you can rename inputs on the denon receiver.

I renamed the "HDP" (high definition player) to HD-DVD, and one of the component inputs to Xbox 360

How funny, I have the 8001 and was considering changing it with 3808. Out of curiosity, what motivated you to change the Marantz with the Denon? What were your top reasons?

Not sure about the sleep mode Mark. I can’t find it in the manual, nor have I stumbled over it. Not only can you rename the inputs, you actually get to see what you rename them to on the display. You can also delete inputs so you don’t have to see them or cycle through them. Pretty cool feature.

Hansang,

I didn’t need, or really want to buy this receiver or do it to replace the Marantz. I would have preferred to wait a few months and see what Sherwood Newcastle comes out with, or Rotel. Unfortunately, I’m on my second SR/8001 that replaced a defunct unit. The second one also has issues that required me to send it in for evaluation. I decided to just buy something different and I’ll peddle whatever Marantz sends back to me. I do prefer this Denon over the Marantz though. So maybe this will work out….

Michael,
The 4806 is one heck of a reciever. I wish I would have just bought one of those in the first place. I wouldn't suggest you ditch it until something really cool hits the streets.

mdrew,

You mention that the Onkyo 905 would have been harder to pass up despite the quirks with its better (Silicon Optix ReonVX compared to Faroudja FLI02310) video processing if you needed a good on board video chip. What I noticed is that the Onkyo 905 also has THX Ultra2 Certification, dual push-pull amps, and Burr-Brown's newest PCM1796 DACs (123dB SNR). The Denon 3808 uses the same three TI SHARC DSPs as the Onkyo for audio decoding and processing, but somewhat inferior Burr-Brown PCM1791 DACs (113dB SNR) from 2005. Notwithstanding the fact that you are using an outboard video processor, do you think there may also be a difference on audio performance between these two units? Were the user complaints you mention related to audio or video performance with the 905? Thanks.

John

Mike, enjoyed reading your observations, although I wish that you could've gone over those other 73 inputs and outputs for us. Hope that the audio gods are kinder to you with this one.

John, DACs these days are a mature technology so far as actually having an audible effect on performance because of small differences in the specs. The 1791 that the 3808 uses has an SNR already well beyond what's required for audibly flawless performance in that respect.

John,

Ya, what JohnK said about the DAC’s. Allan has also commented before about DAC performance. What most folks don’t realize is that DAC’s are cheap. I believe the very best DAC you can buy is under 10 bucks. What’s more important, is how well they are implemented into the whole electronic package. This is the same as with video processing chips. Even though the Reon is getting some very good praise, if it’s implemented incorrectly, it won’t do a lick of good. Having said that, I don’t think anyone can make a claim that any piece of audio gear will sound better than another without doing a true blind listening session, and those that do make those claims should probably be ignored because they are obviously F-O-S.

As far as the Onkyo quirks I mentioned, I’d prefer to not get into that in this thread because it was not my intention to turn this into a “which receiver should I get thread”, but just a user report on this particular Denon. Denon has a large fan base on these boards, and I figured I’d just pass along some information to any who may be considering this receiver. If you go to AVS, there’s a multitude of threads discussing the new Onkyo’s and their related problems.

Hi mdrew,

Thanks for the follow up. The basis for my inquiry is that I am considering the Integra DTC-9.8 as a pre-pro to pair with the A1400-8. I suspect the 9.8 has similar audio/video boards to the 905 but without the internal amps. It is very hard to find due to high demand, and the Denon 3808 represents a nice alternative, especially since it can also accept HBR audio and decode all 4 high-rez formats internally. User reports at AVS have been very positive (no lip sync issues, for instance).

I guess a separate question is what characteristics to look for in the pre-outs of AVRs if one contemplates using them as a pre-pro. What would be the pre-out voltage requirement, for instance. I guess this could be considered in another thread unless someone cares to chime in.

John

John,

The 9.8 / 1400 is the combination I had my heart set on, but when I starting thinking about all that money and my ‘huge’ 12 X 16 room, I decided to spend the money I save buying a receiver on something more useful.

If you want particular information on the 9.8/1400 combo, shoot CV a PM. He’s got it. If you can’t find the 9.8, the Onkyo Pro 885 is the same thing, but prettier. I’ve read that both of these units run hot as well (they also use the Reon).

If you go with a receiver as a pre/pro, you will loose balanced outputs. Unless you plan to have the amp and pre/pro twenty feet or so apart from each other, I doubt balanced outputs will serve any useful purpose other than cost you a pocket full of ten dollar bills.

I absolutely love the GUI on this Denon. Unless the Integra has something comparable, I’d sure hate to give this up. It’s just too friggin cool.

I like the GUI being an overlay. That's something I would have liked on the Integra, especially for adjusting lip sync. There are plenty of options on the Integra, but it looks like there's even finer control on this Denon. Sounds like a great unit.

Superb review of the receiver.
You must be getting good at it considering how many you've owned now.
I have had no reason to change out my 6.1 Onkyo DS797 since we bought it, though i've been contemplating moving to a 7.1 unit and because i like alot of the Onkyo features, i may stay with that brand. A friend owns a Denon and i found the rooting around the menu very unintuitive.
I think it is common ground to have crappy, horribly translated manuals.



This feature is a plus and a minus depending on your uses. I like the capability of video switching and having only one input being used on the video display for wire runs, but sometimes i want to play music but watch a game on the tv. Once i select dvd or cd on the receiver, the video gets flipped over accordingly.
I can setup the other way of wiring but then would have to change (add) to the startup sequence for any different activity.
Does this sound as confusing as it does to write it?


Phone ring?
Dog bark?
Spousal complaint?

Mike, that was an EXCELLENT review. I found it not only enjoyable but also compelling.

So, what I hear you saying is, you've had this thing for over a week and it hasn't caught on fire even one time? Amazing.

Based on your experience (especially with the GUI), Denon might just be able to retain me as a customer after all.

Just great, Mike. Thank you so much.

I see. Thanks for the follow-up. I don't really have any reason to switch it out, other than it's a pain to get the FW upgraded on the Marantz (having to haul it in to a service center in Manhattan is a MAJOR pain). I'm also curious how much better Master Audio is as well. Maybe not $1500's worth, but curious non the less

funny, coming straight off the marantz website:\

After all, killing a Marantz (besides being almost impossible to do) is an entertainment felony of the first order.

http://us.marantz.com/Products/2205.asp#

I guess that statement has been proven wrong

They underestimated Mike.

Wise people have learned not to.

Thanks for the pics of the on screen interface. I was curious to see how much it improved over the old mainframe looking style of old. Impressive.

I ran the audessey eq auto setup, The distances were pretty spot on for most the speakers, but it said the sub was 20 feet away when it is like 11?

Also at the end the the sub was set to like -12 db?!?

It showed the crossover for my center channel as 40 hz, and for the mains it was blank.

hmmm, going to have to toy with the results here... not sure

what do you think mdrew? how do I fix the sub reading? I had the crossover set to bypass, trim to flat, and volume at about 60% during the test... did I do something wrong?

If you really get into the Denon manual it will explain the reason for the distance of the sub, internal circuitry delays or some other tech stuff, I can't get the precise words for it but it's not a problem and all the Denon's seem to do it. Can't explain why your mains don't show anything though.

I guess it is because the denon set the sub to LFE only, not LFE+ mains, so no crossover there.

I changed the sub value to 10.2 ft, and increased it from -12 db (which audessey automatically picked) to closer to like -5 db. The gain is at about 60% on the sub...

Is this too much of a change? I do not have an SPL meter,

Also, do I want to set the sub to LFE+ mains and put a crossover? for some reason the audessey set up did not do this.

Any change you make that sounds better to you is fine, I would put on a movie with alot of LFE and test the effects of both settings to see where you prefer it. I enjoy how my autosetup set everything so I've left it alone.

Terz:
I would put the sub distance back to where it was.

What's happening is that because there's circuitry and amplification in the sub, the signal gets slowed down a bit more than if it were just a straight connection from the jacks in the back to the cone.

The fact that your Denon "hears" the signal taking a bit longer to get to the mic is being interpreted as the sub being further away.

So really, leaving that distance set at the "further" setting that Audyssey found was indeed correct to make up for that slight delay.

Michael and Mark already told you what I would have.

If you do not have an SPL meter, you need to trust Audysey. I found the LFE setting to be perfect. The distance is supposed to be greater, and the rule of thumb is to add 6 feet of distance to your actual distance if you do not have an auto EQ program. I’d move it back where Audysey/Denon put it.

The X-over should be blanked out. It set your mains to large, so all LFE will go to the mains, plus the sub for the settings under the crossover point it set for the remaining speakers. I have mine to LFE so the LFE goes to the mains and sub. You should just toggle back and forth and see what you prefer. Depending on the size of your room, and where you have the sub’s volume control, you could see a variety of settings for the sub. Mine is -9.

Just pop in a couple DVD’s and see how it sounds to you. If you don’t like it, copy the curve and set up a manual profile. It’s not too difficult, but be warned……once you head down this road, it’s doubtful you will ever be happy. It’s like power seats, does anyone every really just set them and leave them alone? No, I doubt it. But the older cars with non-adjustable seats and steering wheels were all comfortable as is after a few hours………

I changed the sub distance back to what it was (or close to it at least) I could not remember exactly what it was, 20.something so I just used 20, The sub was set at -12db, and I changed it to about - 6db this morning.

Everything else will remain unchanged. I will probably grab an spl meter soon and at least check the settings.

I would like to experiment with setting the main speakers to small and using a crossover- but that will wait. I am very happy with the audessey results, just want to experiment a bit

Does the denon 3808 let you set the main's to small with a crossover to the sub for stereo sound (when listening to music that needs a sub), but leave them set to large for the audessey calibrated 5.1 set up?

Mike,

It looks like a keeper, congrats on your new marriage! Hopefully it won't end up in an exchange

Or a reality TV episode.

I guess I don't need to set the mains to small and apply a crossover after all... I think? If I want to add a subwoofer for my 2 channel music that needs a little extra bass, I guess I can just change the sub from LFE to "main +LFE"

will this option send the bass from the mains to the sub kind of like having the mains set to small with a crossover?

If this is the case, I wonder what frequency the cutoff point is for what stays with the mains and what goes to the sub?

I think I am a little confused on the difference between setting the mains to small with a crossover, or leaving them at large with the sub set to "LFE + main"

2 channel music in direct mode will allow your sub to work with the speakers and no crossovers. LFE+Main means the LFE signal in DVDs will be sent to the main speakers as well as the sub, this option may help poor room dynamics and spread out the LFE providing your mains are up to the task. When the mains are set to small and a cross over point is made the receiver starts to send anything below that point to the sub and frees up the load on the receivers amp and the speakers are free to articulate the area of sound they do better at. For M60 - 80 the crossover is usually set around 50-80hz depending on the room and how the listener likes it.

actually, 'LFE + main' says "play low range and LFE signals of all channels"

while 'LFE' says "play low range and LFE signals of all speakers set to small"

When listening to two channel stereo I changed it to 'LFE + main' with my mains set to large, and the sub started pumping out the bass....

I am not sure what the denon considers "low range" so its like it is some kind of crossover setting applied to a 'large' speaker- this is what has me confused.

I think I understand how a crossover setting works on a 'small' speaker, but I am not exactly sure what is happening with this 'LFE + main' mode ( what frequency is being sent to the sub? instead of cutting off the low end sent to the mains with a crossover, is it playing the low end in both the mains and the sub? and I still do not understand exactly what 'low range'
means

LFE is a specific coding done during production which is why you see the "play low range and LFE signals of all speakers set to small" or 'LFE + main "play low range and LFE signals of all channels", it's just that the specific LFE signal is now getting played through the front main speakers as well as the sub with the LFE + Main setting.


The low range should be what ever is below your crossover setting in the receiver.

2 channel stereo for Denon, I do believe, they don't use the sub except in LFE + Main mode, but in direct mode the sub is always on regardless of any xover settings..

hmmm- when I put a cd into my a2 hd-dvd player and try stereo or direct with LFE+main or just LFE I get no bass out of my sub.

Through my 360 its says dolby digital and the music gets a sub (only the fronts and sub are on.) If I change it to stereo or direct no sub there either...

I need to figure out how the denon works. I still can't get the sub working with stereo or direct mode on either the HD DVD or the 360

T, just a quick partial reply. Keep in mind that the "+ main" setting just adds more input to the sub; the mains remain playing full-range when they're set large. As to how much of the mains low bass(not LFE)also goes to the sub in that setting, the Denon manual isn't clear(surprise)as to whether an arbitrary frequency(e.g. 80Hz)is used or one of the settings from speakers set "small" is also applied for sending mains bass to the sub.

Johnk, I found in a menu somewhere in the GUI where it showed the crossovers that were assigned by the audessey eq. It showed LFE+main as 80hz, so apparently this 'arbitrary' crossover is adjustable... I guess I just over looked it.

Still not sure why the denon will not use my sub with a stereo source such as an audio cd through my Hd DVD player.

Sorry, I seem to have gotten this thread off track a bit, focusing more on my specific problems then general denon 3808 questions.

sorry mdrew, great review by the way.

Well, p.41 of the manual implies that in "direct" the sound stays in the same channels and there's no bass management, so with CDs(where there's no LFE channel, of course)there'd be nothing to go to the sub. In "stereo" however, if mains are set "small" with a crossover(the default, as shown at p.29, is in fact 80Hz, if it wasn't set otherwise manually or by Odyssey), the sub should be getting the low bass below 80Hz or other setting. If the mains are set "large" there'd be no low bass to the sub if it's set LFE only; if "+ mains" was set, then the sub should get the mains bass below the 80Hz default or other frequency set.

Terz,

what is your EP500 set to for a crossover, bypass?

yes it is set on bypass.

there is still no bass coming from the sub with a stereo source.

The mains are set to large, but I have the subwoofer set to 'LFE + main' with an 80hz crossover

try setting the sub to just "LFE" and see if that works. Although it should work with that setting...

What happens when the mains are set to small?

Ahhh Jason, you are right, they need to be set to small, otherwise there will be no crossing over from the mains to the sub. If you have small mains, and the "LFE+Mains" option on, you will get both playing the LFE. Sheesh, not sure how I overlooked that!

Would somebody please draw a chart for us visual learners?

Tom, Get back in your room. This time I'm taking away your remote!

The way I interpret the LFE and LFE + Main sub setting is:

Set the sub setting to LFE if you want bass below the crossover point from all speakers set to “small” to go to the sub. All speakers that have been set to large will still be sent a full range signal. No bass from the channels/speakers set to large will be directed to the sub.

Set the sub setting to LFE + Main if you want all bass below the crossover point from all speakers set to “small” to go to the sub AND bass from the speakers set to “large” to go to the sub as well. What I do not understand is at what crossover point will this Denon termed “low bass” is, and just how much bass will be added to the sub in addition to the full range signal still being sent to the speakers that are set to “large”.

I have tried both with a 5.1 audio source (Avia test disk) and could not detect a difference by ear or by indication on my SPL meter. Because I find this LFE + Main setting confusing, and also contradictory, I have elected to leave my sub setting at LFE. I have not testing this with a two channel CD and suspect that if there is a difference between these two settings, it will be with two channel that does not have a dedicated LFE channel.

I've found that indeed with 2 channels LFE + Main is the only way to get your sub working. If you select LFE, then the sub isn't utilized. For movie's, I too can't hear any difference, so I just leave it set to LFE + Main.

solved the problem guys, with a little help from AVS forum.

so I had my sub set to 'yes' and 'lfe+main' with a crossover at 80 hz.
These settings were applied in the GUI at the following location

manual setup->speaker setup->speaker config
to set the mains to large, and
manual setup->speaker setup->subwoofer set up
to put the sub to 'lfe+main'

It turns out that there is another place in the gui you must make adjustments for stereo playback

in the GUI go to
manual setup->audio set up-> stereo/direct

here it showed subwoofer to 'no'

I changed it to yes and lfe + main, with an 80 hz crossover to test the bass output

Holy crap my sub POUNDS in stereo mode with an 80 hz crossover.
I think setting you mains to 'large' with sub set to 'LFE+main' is different then a 'small' setting with a crossover because the mains AND the sub are playing the low range signals (at least as low as the m80's can possibly play)

if I set it to LFE the sub does not work with stereo sound (because it is only sending the low range signals from 'small' speakers to the sub, and my mains are set to large.)

If I turn it to LFE+main then even speakers set to 'large' (my mains) will send the sub 80hz tones to the sub.

anyway, thanks for all of th input guys!


mdrew, there is an option under both of the setup menus (speaker set up and audio set up), that lets you adjust what 'low range' (80 hz, 60 hz, ect.) signals are sent to the sub when you have LFE+main turned on

anyway, I am now satisfied that my sub is working as it should be, and have since turned it to 'no' for stereo play back. When I feel like listening to some bass heavy rap or techno, I can change it to 'yes' and shake my house apart.

Glad you figured it out.

Yes, LFE+Mains is different than speakers set to 'small' with the crossover. As you/we said 'LFE + Mains' the sub and mains get all the low frequency including those in the LFE channel. Also as was stated before when speakers are set to 'small', everything below the crossover point is then sent to the sub and not the speaker.

I think your sub is calibrated a little too hot if it POUNDS with music. It could also just be the music is produced very bass heavy. Does your sub not pound with HT?

Is there another special screen to setup the sub for different modes ie. stereo vs. direct vs 5/6/7/channel stereo vs. all the movie modes? You could always recalibrate the sub to sound more even with the rest of the system manually.

I did not see an option to change the sub setting for stereo different than for direct.

You can however change the sub settings for multichannel sources differently from stereo sources. Also, you can change the sub settings differently for all of the various multichannel modes (widescreen, cinema, stadium, ect.) so you can have several settings pre-prgorammed.

MY sub definitely has the ability to blend in with the music, but for most of my music I do not feel I need a sub at all.

I was listening to some rap to test my sub, and This particular track was definitely VERY bass heavy.

The gain is at about 60% on my sub(where it was at during the audessey eq setup.

Audessy set my sub at about -12db, and I upped it to about -6.5db, so It probably is running a little 'hot'

I will adjust it down later if needed so the sub is more subtle, but I am just testing it's abilities right now

I have not had a chance to listen to my sub much with HT yet, been very busy.

What Size of spade connection would you need to connect speakers to this unit? And what size do axiom speakers use? Thinking of buying the 3808 or 4808 and some axioms and was going to order speaker wire from axiom as well.

Hi,

Axiom installs high quality gold plated five-way binding post model on its audio speakers. These binding posts will accept bare wire plus the four following connector types; pin, banana plug, spade and round connector as well. A 1/4" spade will slide inside the indents/slots of the binding post.

Axiom audiophile quality terminated cables are offered with 1/4" and 3/8" spades or a mix of the two (one end 1/4", the other 3/8").

What do you recommend for speaker connections? I know that the AVR I am looking at has banana plug connections but not sure what size of spade connection I'm assuming that they are the same 1/4 inch connections but I'm not sure.

Sorry, didnt mean to hijack the thred just hoping for a quick answer.

I will just second the notion of buying the Axiom wire, it is great, super flexible and lays nice and flat. If you want the banana plugs they work and look great too.

I wouldn't count on the binding posts on the receiver handling spades. Also--wouldn't that waste an awful lot of space on the back? I'd use banana plugs or bare wire, myself.

I wish I had a girlfriend with those qualities...

Too busy comparing the sound of an exploding RPG to that of a hand grenade on COD 4? hmmm, which one has more bass??

I'd go with banana plugs then.

Mas, bare wire is fine(even in the close quarters of the receiver terminals)unless you're thinking of frequently changing connections and want the convenience of banana plugs.

Bayne, as T discovered when the special stereo setting for the sub on his 3808 was changed from "no" to "yes", it's always possible to use the sub with 2-channel material. If the mains are set "small" and the sub "yes" of course, it gets bass below the selected crossover when set "LFE" only. The "+Main" setting isn't necessary or generally advisable.

Why did I read that as "bare wife is fine"?

Don't answer that.

2 kids.

Does anyone know why the 3808 set my ep 500 to -12 db with the auto set up?

All other channels are in the 0 to +3 range

The Audessey is a funny thing, but useful. The settings it gave me don't make sense either, but they sound wonderful. After I ran it, I used an SPL meter and set everything manually. It didn't sound nearly as good as what the Audessey gave me. Maybe it's best not to try and figure the thing out and just enjoy the music if it works for you?

I leave it at -12 or -11 for most music.

I adjust it anywhere from -6 to 0 for movies though....

I think I could benefit from experimenting with sub placement. right now the only other real option for placement is taken by a christmas tree.

You may have the gain control on the 500 turned up too high and the Denon is trying to compensate by setting it to -12.

Definitely a possibility,
However, I had the gain set at about 50% during the auto set up so I am not sure.

50% on the EP500 is still very loud, you could try it at a lower setting,25%, just to see what the Audyssey does.

It seems that no matter how I configure settings on my EP600, or where I place it in my room, I always get -12 with Audyssey. It really tames bass for music which sometimes is appropriate, but sometimes, not. If I feel that I need to adjust to taste i.e. to -6 or so I have to go to "Manual" on my Denon because I can't stand the red Audyssey indicator on the front pannel when "Audyssey" settings are tampered with. That's just me though.

hmmm. when does the audyssey indicator turn red? I usually just click in the circular channel button on the remote and adjust the bass from there.

It's at that level because that what it's supposed to do....balance ALL the channels. Until you verify with a SPL meter, all you are doing by changing that setting manually, is guessing.

This may not help you with Audyssey but it may help you with sub set-up.

I have an Epic80-600 and I've had one heck of a time getting "tight" bass in my 4,000 cubic foot room. I've been experimenting the last week and have found that by setting the cut-off in my Denon and on the 600 to 40Hz, I can achieve very tight bass. I also found that I had to turn the gain control on the 600 to about 7 o'clock and the gain on my Denon to 0. My previous settings were 10 o'clock, -7 on the LFE channel, 80Hz on the Denon and by-pass on the 600. The full setting works best for my case.

I find that when I turn the gain knob of the 600 up, the bass has too much "overhang" (technically called a long settling time). But I don't have the same problem if I turn the Denon's LFE gain up.

To really experience this tightness, I have to turn the main gain of the Denon up (over 20W/channel). This is extremely loud in my space and I can only do this when everyone is out. But with the previous sub configuration, even when I turned it up it wasn't tight. It was just more full.

Blending between the 600 and 80s is the same...astounding! However, I have lost some "transparency". Prior to doing this, string bass lines had their focal point in the front of my soundstage but nonetheless "floated all around me". Now, I don't have that "bass everywhere" feeling. This just convinces me even more that I can't have bass tight and transparent...at least not in my space.

By the way, this 40Hz setting is great for music and movies. I have found that in scenes like explosions and gunshots, the bass is not as full but it hits very hard...much harder than 80Hz. The criticism to this of course would be that I am missing some action from my QS8s between about 40Hz to 70Hz but I haven't found this to be a problem practically.

Tex, that is some very valuable analysis. Thank you.

That just means it's time to upgrade the Denon to a newer unit that allows multiple crossovers. I just saw Outlaw has the 970 PrePro/7125 Pwr Amp for $1385 delivered to my door(I was so close to buying it, but the sub must come first)

I just tried to get my sub to match up the M80s at the 40hz mark yesterday and I couldn't even get my sub to match the SPL! I had to increase the level in the receiver to do it and it sounded incredibly awful!

I could have swore I saw something about Santa Ian offering 20% off on the EP500 to those of us with such sucky subs

Yeah, Jason that's exactly what I was thinking too. I always thought that multiple x-overs were over-rated but now I think differently.

The problem with the 500 is that it wouldn't fit down your chimney .

Hardly overrated. Yeah, I've got a somewhat strange setup, but I'm not crossing my M80s at 100 or 120 just so I can get bass from my surround channels (QS4s). Nor am I crossing my QS4s at 40 Hz and losing all the bass from those channels.

Gotta have multiple crossovers. I have no idea why more manufacturers have not implemented them.

I think they all have them, but on their upper endish models to force us to pay more for other thngs we don't want. Eventually it will trickle down.

If he can make it down my chimney then the 500 can too .

I bought an SPL meter at lunch today and went and verified my audessey settings.

All speakers were at 75 db with the excepetion of my right surround. I lowered it half a decibel in the denon to acheive a 75 db reading on the spl meter.

The sub was set at 9 o'clock during the auto set up (and it still is)and the denon set it to -12db. With these settings the spl meter read between 75 and 77 db (it was fluctuating).

I feel better about the channel level calibrations that the denon produced (and the distances were spot on too.) But I still think I want to experiment with crossovers for the mains.

Right now the settings are how the denon put them- the surrounds are set to small with crossover at 80, the center is set to small with crossover at 40, and the mains are set to large.

The sub is set to LFE+main with the 'crossover' at 60 hz.

For 98% of my music the bass level is perfect at -12. When I want to give the sub a workout and show it off with a little rap or drum n' bass I can crank it up to -3 and man it is LOUD (and a bit boomy at that point).

However,I feel like I am missing some bass during action movies and games. I think I need to experiment with both the crossover and the sub placement. I was hoping for my couch to rumble during explosions, and right now it is not.

I need to find a good HD-DVD or DVD to test the LFE...

I think you need to set the sub's crossover at or over the highest crossover for the channels, otherwise you might be missing that 60-80 Hz range on the surrounds. At least, that's how I have my H/K set up. Maybe I'm insane.