Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater common guru's - receiver suggestions

gurus:
I want opinions on receivers for my future HT.
speakers are a given, m60's or M80's depending how much quid is left over from the receiver purchase.
heres my receiver budget = 1500 CAN.
heres my short list:
NAD - 751
ROTEL - 972
DENON - 2802
YAMAHA - V1200

give me honest opinions.
don't reply if your going to say something like "which features do you like the best". I am talking about sound quality only. as I have no way to demo each of these under equivalent set ups.

thanks gurus
and again Axiom, the best speaker going (for the money), and everybody roots for the underdog.. right!

For quality of construction, sonic abilities and performance, they would grade as such:
1) Rotel and NAD 2) Denon 3)Yamaha

Ranking them in terms of 'musically" performance may not suggest which manufacturer is the best "HT" piece. You mentioned HT, and if that is your realm, the Rotel model RSX 972 and NAD T751 are the best models listed. They have slightly different output ratings, but either should dirve a larger pair of Axioms very nicely.

You could also look at other models, but that may confuse the issue. There are upscale models that may fall into your price range, as you have a good budget to work with.

Regards,

BBIBH

thanks muchly BBIBH.
from reading this forum I believe you "do" know what your talking about. I will take your input very seriously.
You have peeked my interest by your last point. Could you kindly list some of these "higher" end brands that you would recommend?

thanks a bunch

Take a look at the Arcam AVR100 or AVR200. Wonderful sounding receiver.

Thanks for the compliment! In terms of hifi manufacturers that also have created HT gear, what you will find is that most design separate processors and amplifiers. I will toss some names out that I respect as audio companies, and you can investigate the prices. I know for a fact that some of this equipment is vastly beyond your generous budget, and would require that most if not all listed be surrounded by the best source, speakers and cabling...possibly well beyond most peoples means.

In no particular order: SimAudio, Bryston, Linn, Classe, Krell, Levinson, Proceed, Wadia, Parasound, Roksan, Meridian, California Audio Labs, Spectral....the list is very subjective and far from complete. These companies represent some of the world's finest (and most expensive) audio products. I would think you should look for something from NAD, Rotel, B&K, Arcam and definitely base choices on your list of needs and wants. Also, don't cut corners on the source(s) you choose. This is a critical area of a system, as I have discussed in many posts, missing or bad information from the source can't be corrected or replaced by the downstream components!

My advice, buy the amp as planned, ensure the source is quality, even if it means saving for the next component purchase or replacement.

Regards,

BBIBH

Hi,
Just a quick comment: Arcam is definitely excellent gear; I'd choose the Denon myself (excellent power supply, good with low-impedance loads, clear setup menus for HT, fine sound, etc.). I know you like NAD, BBIBH, but NAD has had reliability problems over the past 5 or 6 years. Rotel gear is nicely designed, and worked well when I reviewed it for Sound& Vision (Canada) magazine. I would hope by now NAD had corrected its relibility troubles but that wasn't the case as recently as a few months ago.

Regards,

Alan Lofft
Axiom Resident Expert

You could buy any of the models you list and be very happy. You have to consider ergonomics. FWIW I have the Yamaha rx-v2200 and it mates very well with the M22ti's. I did not care for the Denon 3802 as much, due to ergonomics, and the fact that it rolls off the highs a bit (e.g., cymbal crashes do not sustain as long as they would in real life). I think of NAD and Rotel as the next step (fewer features, perhaps better 2-channel stereo, but not better than Denon nor Yamaha for HT).

Yes, I had heard about NAD's problems...I also hope they come out of the issues. I have an older model that has given me yoemens service over the years. Truth be told, and I am sure you have gathered as much, I like the higher end pieces more than I do the middle of the road equipment.

But not everyone will agree with me, and that I can accept! As I have preached, this is subjective.

Regards,

BBIBH

I would only comment that the Yamaha will probably have greater range of features than say the Rotel, but it in no way would be designed as solidly. The Yamaha would not stack up beyond the feature comparison for HT or audio.

In my opinion, and 20+years in the high tech field, the only Yamaha music piece I would consider is their Grand Piano.

Regards,

BBIBH

... and you last had a Yamaha rxv1200 or rxv2200 in your home for a 30-day trial when?

The original poster wants best sound for his HT? Yamaha uses their own DSP chips in their receivers -- I think for surround sound processing they are leagues ahead of many others. The amps are probably not as nice as Rotels, and perhaps the Yamaha's will not help "smooth" over a poorly-recorded source as well as a Denon, or NAD, Arcam or Rotel may, but make sure you get DPL2 at least.

I think the rxv1200 is HUGE value, and I do have "golden ears", and I can tell you Axiom speakers mate very well with the rxv2200 -- I would expect the rxv1200/Axiom match to be stellar. Not to digress too horribly, bang for the buck should be considered as well. In reality you'll be chasing a newer receiver (or pre/pro) with newer HT features sooner than you think (less than 6 years from initial purchase), believe me.

In my home, never...In a controlled listening environment at a local dealer, about 5-6 months ago....just before he dropped the lineup as it was being outsold by other equipment.

In the original post, it was specified " sound quality only", and so it was answered. If you feel the Yamaha is a good piece, so be it. But opinions were sought, and the list was presented. Based on the criteria, opinions were provided...including yours.

You are correct regarding life cycles, in fact you may be generous. Hi Tech is very much a changing landscape. By purchasing something like the Rotel, when in 6 years (to use your timeframe) a replacement is sought, there will be a solid receiver available that can reproduce quality music.....something that can't be said of the Yamaha sadly. I am not sure any amp can smooth over poor source material, as if it is bad, even the best equipment can't change the quality of the media.

I am sure this is the type of feedback that was requested, positive and negative. I think we have provided the end user with both concrete facts, and personal opinion that they will make a solid descision.

Regards,

BBIBH

"in my home, never"

Come on now. You sound like an audio snob who is more enamored with their own conceited perspectives formed by narcissicism.

Smart you may be, full of yourself you seem. TTFN.

SO you jump on BBIBH because he has an opinion? Gee if you get in an arguement, do you attack people?

If BBIBH or anyone for that matter does not like something you do, are they wrong? I thought that we have freedom of choice and that is called an opinion.

Rick

Absolutely, positively....maybe. Audio snob? I have never been accused of that before! But if wanting better performance and not settling for a product I don't think is quality, then sure...whatever you say.

What you're quoting is not "an audio snob" comment. It was the response to your asking me when I last had it in my home...as in " I have never actually had one at home, but have heard...". What I guess I failed to get in the message was that I have not had a demo in my home, but in a controlled listening room. Nothing offensive meant, and I apoligize if it read that way.

But you know what? I have always beleived there are good pieces available...and quite a few for the same
price markets as the mass manufactured equipment. Is wanting better than average a crime? Is it worth
working toward with an open mind? I stated the facts, and even my most basic premises are soundly based in terms of music. I have spent many years listening with an open mind. Do you know where that has led? To the belief that we all can have better equipment if we choose to understand the limiting factors and seek answers.

Thanks for the compliment about my intelligence. Self assured? Sure. Cocky? Some might say. Willing to settle for things I don't care for or believe in? Absolutely not. As I have stated many times....this is a subjective business. Do you believe your choice is sound? Sure you do. Would it make me happy? Probably not. But we have the freedom to choose and form opinions...correct? So why should I be insulted because I have an opinion? In my situation, I have the ability to obtain equipment I like.

Anyway, I suspect that we have gotten way of the original post. I would be happy to discuss equipment with you offline. I suspect we will never totally see eye to eye....but would life be boring if everyone did!

Regards,

BBIBH

NAD or Rotel for me. Which is more hassle-free in terms of dealer location and/or service? How much is the 761 in Cdn $.

Yes. Reason? Holier than thou attitudes come across fairly clearly IMO. Trying to raise your own opinion above others in in itself conforntational. Butt out. Check your comprehension skills, pal.

The 2200 is a stopgap measure for me so my opinions aren't tainted like some people's who feel compelled to defend their purchases -- I'm not accusing anyone in this thread of doing that BTW.

The original poster would be best served if they broadened their pursuit of opinions to include www.hometheaterforum.com and avsforum. Some tend to be Denon fans, some real high-end fans, but some posters are very helpful (not saying BBIBH hasn't been BTW).

I must say that this is getting a little out of hand.....
Someone asked for opinions, was given a few that do not completely agree, and a free for all has ensued.

I see thinly veiled references to opinions placed by people who do not agree with you. I agree that opinions are subjective, but we should not insult a difference of opinion. You mentioned that your choice was an interim step. This indicates that you know that there is higher quality pieces available. You mentioned that you viewed some of the short listed equipement as the next step, indicating above your choice in some areas. Your choice was made like any other person makes theirs - budget, needs, and wants. Perhaps peatro's budget allows him to look at what you may consider the next logical step, above your stop gap piece. He provided the list, opinions were provided.

I also have no problem admitting that something I don't own is better than a comparable piece I do own.....I start working to obtain that better piece, all the while admitting I have found something I consider to be better....again IN MY OPINION. Just in case that was a shot at me;)

Thanks for the compliment (again....cheque is in the mail LOL)

Let's not take this to the common street thug level.

Regards,

BBIBH

I feel anal retentive this morning, so I'm going to scrutinize this post: {no offense but I'M using CAPS; I'm not shouting, really}

"In my home, never...In a controlled listening environment at a local dealer, about 5-6 months ago....just before he dropped the lineup as it was being outsold by other equipment.

PROBABLY BECAUSE THEY"RE COMPETING WITH OTHER VENDORS TOUTING 7.1 and 110 WPC (PERTAINING TO YAMAHA 2200 VS DENON 3802 FOR EXAMPLE - THE PUBLIC OFTEN DOES NOT TAKE ENOUGH TIME TO ACTUALLY AUDITION EACH AUDIO PIECE IN THEIR OWN HOMES, AND OFTEN BUY ON HYPE). IMO FOR YOU TO EVEN MENTION THIS IN LIGHT OF THE FACT I'VE ADMIITTED I LIKE THE RXV2200 IS SEEMINGLY CONFRONTATIONAL. YOU CANNOT PROVE YOUR STATEMENT IS A FACT, SO WHAT PURPOSE DOES IT SERVE THE ORIGINAL POSTER? SILLY.

In the original post, it was specified " sound quality only", and so it was answered. If you feel the Yamaha is a good piece, so be it. But opinions were sought, and the list was presented. Based on the criteria, opinions were provided...including yours.

NO YAMAHA RECEIVER WILL EVER BE THE END ALL FOR SOUND REPRODUCTION. HOWEVER, THE POSTER SAID "FOR HIS HT" MEANING NOT JUST 2-CHANNEL STEREO (THIS IS NOT TO SAY I BELIEVE "YOU" THOUGHT HE MEANT 2-CHANNEL STEREO BTW).. SO I INTERPRET SOUND TO ALSO INCLUDE THE WAY A RECEIVER DISTRIBUTES SOUND WHEN DECODING SURROUND SIGNALS. ACCURACY OF THE SURROUND SOUND STEERING TO ALL SURROUND SPEAKERS. SOUND IS WHAT YOU HEAR, AND WHETHER OR NOT YOU HEAR ENOUGH IN CORRECT PROPORTIONS ASSUMING ALL SPEAKERS ARE PROPERLY CALIBRATED (e.g., SET TO SAME SPL LEVEL FROM THE LISTENER'S PRIMARY SEAT). NOT ALL RECEIVER'S OPERATE THE SAME WHEN IT COMES TO DECODING - JUST BECAUSE IT SAYS IT "DOES" DPL2, DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY MEAN IT IS THE SAME AS THE NEXT RECEIVER THAT "DOES" DPL2.

I REALLY BELIEVE THE YAMAHA THE POSTER MENTIONS WILL PERFORM PL2 BETTER THAN THE OTHERS -- THE DENON 3802 CERTAINLY DID NOT DO AS WELL AS THE YAMAHA. I KNOW FROM IN-HOME EXPERIENCE, SINCE I HAD BOTH UNITS IN MY HOME FOR OVER 30 DAYS.

EVER HEAR REGULAR DPL? SOUNDS "LESS THAN DESIRABLE, DARE I SAY CRAPPY" GIVEN THE PLETHORA OF DISCRETE CHANNEL SURROUND AVAILABLE NOW. WATCH TV AT ALL? NOTICE MOST STATIONS ARE NOT SENDING OUT DOLBY DIGITAL SOUND OFTEN? DPL2 IS NICE AND WORTHWHILE. IF YOU NEVER WILL WATCH/LISTEN TO TV THROUGH YOUR HT SETUP -- IGNORE DPL2.

WILL THE ROTEL OR NAD OR ARCAM OUTDO YAMAHA? YOU"LL ONLY KNOW IF YOU BRING THEM INTO YOUR HOME.

You are correct regarding life cycles, in fact you may be generous. Hi Tech is very much a changing landscape. By purchasing something like the Rotel, when in 6 years (to use your timeframe) a replacement is sought, there will be a solid receiver available that can reproduce quality music.....something that can't be said of the Yamaha sadly.

AGAIN, YOUR CHOICE OF WORDS HERE IS SOMEWHAT CONFRONTATIONAL. I SAID I LIKE THE YAMAHA SOUND COMPARED TO THE DENON (THIS IS HELPFUL EXPERIENCE FOR THE POSTER), YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY SAYING IT IS SAD THAT (the) YAMAHA (receiver) CANNOT REPRODUCE QUALITY MUSIC. YOU ALREADY MADE YOUR OPINION KNOWN EARLIER IN THE THREAD ON YOUR PREFERENCES AMONGST THE ORIGINAL POSTER'S CHOICES. YOU ARE REALLY TRYING TO SAY THAT MY OPINION IS INFERIOR AND YOUR WISDOM EXCEEDS MINE, AND YOUR EARS LAY GOLDEN EGGS, BLAHBLAHBLAH, .... EVEN IF YOU HAD NO SUCH INTENTIONS, I SUGGEST YOU MORE CAREFULLY REREAD YOUR WRITINGS BEFORE POSTING.

I am not sure any amp can smooth over poor source material, as if it is bad, even the best equipment can't change the quality of the media."

EVER HEAR OF COLORATION IN AUDIO? A DEVICE IMPARTING ITS OWN UNIQUE "FLAVOR" ON THE SOUND YOU HEAR, WHETHER THE DESIGNER MEANT TO OR NOT (I ASSUME THEY DO MEAN TO...)? SURE YOU HAVE. DENON 3802 DOES NOT PRODUCE LONG SUSTAINED NATURAL CYMBAL SPLASHES WHEN COMPARED TO THE YAMAHA RXV2200. REALLY. TRY IT FOR YOURSELF SOMETIME. I AM NOT IMAGINING THIS -- IT IS FACT. NOW IF THE ORIGINAL POSTER CANNOT HEAR THE DIFFERENCE, THEY SHOULD BE SPENDING MUCH LESS MONEY. SORRY FOR USING EASY TO UNDERSTAND WORDS LIKE "SMOOTH" -- IN MY DIRECT HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE, THE DENON ROLLS OFF THE HIGH A BIT SOONER THAN THE YAMAHA, THEREFORE HARSH TREBLE SOUNDS ON POORLY RECORDED CD's SOUNDED LESS SHRILL (LESS UGLY, LESS JAGGED, LESS OUCHIER, NOT AS OBNOXIOUS -- PROBABLY LESS DAMAGING TO EARS ALSO) WHEN LISTENING TO THE DENON.

BBIBH: If you're gonna stand in the kitchen you better be able to take the heat amigo! When you lob grenades, you gotta expect some to come right back atchoo...

I've actually provided additonal good info for the original poster to consider. What else have you offered except to accuse me of verbal thuggery, and put down Yamaha?

I can see where Also is coming from, 'cuz lots of forums can have threads that digress down to "my mother can beat up your mother" kinds of mentality. I think BBH didn't probably mean to downplay Yamaha to spite the other poster, but after seeing the refeence in the same thread it could be seen that way. If that post was in another thread, there'd prolly be no big deal.

Well, let's see....the original poster asked for opinions, I supplied my experiences and opinions. I disagree with you and you get on a soapbox about people who have differing opinions. Others provide opinions, and have you taken them to task? You defend your choice, which I can understand and appreciate.

As for taking heat.... well that is plain silly. I have defended my position with logic and experience....you have also attempted to do this, but chose to include insults. My wording my not be to your liking, but I do not pretend to be many, or any of the names you have pinned on me.

Let us look at the thread logically....
- a short list of equipment was provide and opinions sought
- several opinions were provided and discussion ensued
- differing points of view were displayed
- peatro said he valued my input, and asked about pieces in the next level, which I supplied.
- Alan concurred with a name (Arcam) on the list, specified he liked the Denon, and mentioned to me that NAD had issues...which I thanked him for and did not take offense.
- you posted that you preferred Yamaha, citing some names on the short list as the next step...presumably for you.
- I agreed that features were probably greater in the Yamaha, but not in terms of sound reproduction...especially in the budget was greater. Based on history, I supplied the best Yamaha music piece...a little insulting, granted. But peatro did not want a features discussion.

From that point it became a rational discussion from my side, and an insult laden barrage from yours. Verbal thuggery accusations? Actually, a quick read of the thread will confirm this. My posts are from a neutral point of view, indicating a preference for utilizing certain parameters as a balancing point ( the cable issue, biamping, biwiring, to name but a few posts I have responded to - indicating an issue of contention, and accepting both sides) Yours start out that way, but become condescending.

We are providing no additional "positive" information to the peatro....wonder what became of him?? ;)

If we look at the thread, we are not as far apart as the posts might indicate:
- I mentioned that the best music piece may not be the best HT piece...which you also agreed on.
- I mentioned the budget may allow the original poster to reach above the short listed pieces....you mentioned your recommended choice was a stop gap, indicating a move to better gear was in your future.
- I have preached listening, preferably in similar environments and with the same components as a means of deciding the best for a person, you have also said this in agreement. However, to state it MUST happen ignores the fact that some people are not afforded the luxury. Many posters have indicated this fact in their own situation....including the original poster

So from that stand point we agree on several things.

Oh, and the dealer I mentioned who dropped the product? The reason was a large competitor dropped their hifi section, and focused on the HT arena. While he did not want to drop the segment, he chose to focus on an unfulfilled need in the community. He was already a mid-hi fi dealer, so he decided to focus on this. So, to address your comments, it was not based on equipment comparisons. He already had the mentality of setting the environment based on the purchaser, and spending quality time displaying the products in a well setup listening room. He tried to build a relationship and understand the customers. The large competitor is one of large open spaces, with row upon row of speakers, banks of receivers, CD and DVD players connected for easy and quick switching. I am sure you can guess where any customer would get the proper audtion of the product, and not a 15 second listen to each product.

But that is a discussion for another day....

Nice chatting with you. I am sure we will cross paths on another thread.


Regards,

BBIBH

With all due respect (simply stated so you don't tell me to butt out - very rude, this is an open forum), I think you both have stated your opinions in various tones. BBIBH makes a good point when he/she states that his/her posts are logical and not insulting. While we are all entitled to our opinions, no one person is right, and no one person is wrong. Alan made a comment that promoted a couple of products over your choice. But you did not take him to task.

Here is a thought, you mentioned that your Yamaha was a stop gap. If budget was the limiting item, and you had double the money - I have seen your Yamaha listed in a range of $700-$900 - is this still a sound choice for you?

I guess BBIBH presented brands above this range to provide balance. The orig. poster has more to spend, and he asked for the list.

I read the thread, and can see both sides, but the majority of ill sounding comments comes from Mr. Also.

You both have your positions, and defend them as required.

Let us get back to the original posted questions.

Good points. I was told to butt out because I challenged Also.

For my limited comprehension skills - I see exactly what seems to be the comments of abcd. Chip made his opinion known, so did Alan. But they were not attacked. Maybe BBIH was a little colourful in the piano ideaa, but seems isolated in the discussion.

This is an open forum, so perhaps acceptance is a virtue ABCD?

Rick

I think BBIBH could prove that the other equipment was eing outsold in a buddies store. Simply ask the buddy! Seems like a fact, not a shot at you.

You misread the comment about future sound. BBIBH stated if the system became a music system after being replaced, it would sound better than the Yamaha as a music receiver. Nothing confrontational here, just opinion and possibly facts. Perhaps you are too defensive, as it does not come across as being a shot at you.

I think what BBIBH meant that the source media may not provide all the information, and any receiver will not be able to add the missing information. I make this comment because BBIBH has stated this regarding music before, and the same probably can be said.

I also agree with the others, you seem to have gotten bent out of shape, especially when someone disagrees with you. You conveniently did not nail Alan, or Chip who posted opinions different from yours.

Bad form.

Andy

Alan and Ian posted saying amps have been proven to be the same sounding in double blind tests. When do you start attacjing them for this?

Can you post a list of your opnions? This would help those of us who don't want to get savaged by you. The thread reeks of garbage, on your part totatly. BB has stayed calm, must be tough with you lacing your feedback with insults

Just listening to the tirade going on here LOL...
The 761 is 1400$ CAN. All my budget would be gone. So far just by reading more on the web and listening to a few of the posts here my short list has dropped off one brand; ROTEL.

Thanks to BBIBH (sp?), I have been looking at other brands which I don't know much about ..(and wow there is nice stuff when you really go high -end). I am not even sure how much some of these even cost in CAN dollars so they may be out of reach for me budget wise :(, these brands are:
ARCAM, OUTLAW, and on and on ( insert BBIBH's high-end list here).

One thing I have been noticing is the shipping weight of each piece (not sure if it realy matters) but, I've heard that the weight of a piece is directly porportional to the qualtity (build) . I have to be carefull when comparing weights because the pieces must be similar in power /function.
So far the king of the hill in weight is:
NAD - 761 = 39 lbs.
NAD - 751 = 38 lbs.
DENON -3802 = 36lbs
YAMAHA -v1200 = 33 Lbs
DENON - 2802 = 25lbs (ewwh)
ROTEL - 972 = 33 lbs

The denon 2802, is actually the lightweight of the whole bunch.
Anyways they weight thing is just another parameter I will use for my decision process.

thanks folks, keep the informative posts coming.
and bee carefull out there.

Peatro

You have seen in the thread that each model you originally posted has been recommended by someone posting. I am curious, what decision to drop Rotel was made based on?

Weight can indicate larger pieces used in assembly, such as electrical components used in the ever important power supply. But as you mentioned, it should be a factor, not the deciding factor. I remember hearing a story of a British magazine that brutally reviewed a piece because of the light weight. The designer changed the model number, and riveted a clay brick inside. When it was resubmitted for review, the exact same piece was glowingly reviewed! Urban legend is what I chalked that up to, but I have heard several people who claim it to be true, and claim to be able to produce the reviews. Makes a statement about judging by factors alone.

Regards,

BBIBH

BBIH,
I need to drop something... :) Seriously, though. I don't have a definite reason why, I will probably add it back. Actually my list has not moved - its really getting more complicated. All these posts and research is creating more questions than answers.

Heres a small list of things (pos and neg) that are floating in my mind (I admit some points are biased and are not based solely on sound quality - which I apologize, as this is what I requested in my original post):

negs (these are quotes from various sources):
*1) "Rotel has their stuff made in China."
2) "English mnft's have just now started to take HT seriously"
3) "Rotel Availability problems - 1066"
4) "NAD - reliability issues"
* not to bash the chinese, and before I hold that against ROTEL, I will need to find out where the other mnft are made. I know DENON is in JAP, not sure about NAD - ?, YAM is JAP.

pos:
1) "REspected sound quality , both NAD and ROTEL, DENON"
2) "quality build - NAD and ROTEL (DENON in here as well)"

neg/pos:
Price: NAD and Rotel are on the high end of my budget. ie: For ex: the price of the NAD 761 (1490 CAN), I could get the meatier DENON 3802. So now I have to weigh the 3802 with the 761. now since I'm at this level I have to add the meatier YAM

I'm now realizing that my budget is not enough - 1500 is the threshold seperating great stuff from the audiophile stuff.

thoughts:
1) I like the idea of seperates. So now I am considering prices of a combo set up? (could I get a decent sep set up from say DEN or ROT for the 1500 range ) and would this be a better route than say the meatier 3802 al-in-one)
2) I like (alot) the look of both the ROTEL and NAD products. very sleek and minimalist - this is appealing. Both offer seperates - somthing DEN and YAM don't have.
3) The DENON /YAM has a stronger HT offering - since they have taken HT more seriously and for longer time that the english brands.

See, I'm very ready to make a decision on this ... not :)


ps: secretly I like (very much) the NAD ROTEL line ups.
but, being a current DENON owner I am hesitating.

thanks everyone, I enjoy your input.
Peatro

Glad to see you are doing your research. Well informed choices will result from this research.

In terms of the listing you provided, here are some thoughts:

Negs:
1) Probably true, as quite a few are made in the Far East.
2) Again, some have been in the market for a while, some only recently. But if they make quality audio pieces, utilizing the research and progress made by other companies in the HT arena, these companies could apply their audio principles to the recent developments in HT to design capable equipment.
3)Rotel 1066 line are preamps/preprocessors and power amp separates, which may be a factor. This availability fact may also carry over to other models.
4)Yes, Alan specified these had not been addressed.
You are correct in not being biased by country of origin - and NAD is made in the Far East, owned by a company in Canada (Lenbrook just outside Toronto).

Pros:
1+2 - understood qualitites of these manufacturers.

Neg/Pros:
- Yes, buy moving into different price points, it is only fair to compare other models of similar price.

Thoughts:

Yes, you make very solid points on all three. The benefit of separate pieces (pre/pro/amps) would be the ability to upgrade as newer technology is available. You would not be locked into a particular brand, especially if some particular piece of a specific manufacturer is lacking. This would depend on the weight you place on flexibility. As you mention, some manufacturers may not offer separates that allow this. The problems with this is the cost, as each piece needs quality cables, and separate boxes require a replication of parts per chassis - ie duplicate power supplys, cases, etc. This can be a benefit, if the designs are quality for the outset.

So, you have received answers to intitial questions...that have spawned more questions. This is a situation similar to making any significant purchase. You are researching, studying, and I would venture to say will be happy when you are done.

You mentioned currently owning a Denon. If you are happy with it, why would you be looking at other models? If you are a happy customer, you are your own best reference! ;)

Regards,

BBIBH

Thanks again BBIBH,
I have always like the philosophy (sp?) of the NAD and ROTEL , no frills just good engineering. But the last point (being a current denon owner) will weigh heavy. The reason I am considering other components is that I purchased the DENON 10 years ago... times have changed and brands can slowly morph. (I know this probably hasn't happened with the DEnon) but you never know, companies are always trying to squeek every last bit of profit out of their products,

just look at the SONY brand... :)

that should get the thread going! :)

thanks everyone ..especially AXIOM!

I've got a Denon 3802 (powering a VP100 center and two M3 surrounds) coupled with an Odyssey Stratos for my pair of M50s. This combo sounds amazing! However, before the Odyssey was delivered, I was running all of the speakers off the Denon with great results.

First off, I am pro-Axiom!

If you want to post here or anywhere and act as if someone died and made you the audiogod, I will call you on it. Sorry. Didn't you hear? Someone died and made me an audiogod-wannabe bounty hunter!

I have no qualms with you in this thread, oh wait, now I do. Thanks!

As for double-blind listening and anyone's opinions? I do not care. If you cannot tell the difference you should not spend more $$$. Unfortunately it is difficult to setup such tests while shopping. Now, as far as my ears hearing differences between a Denon 3802 and a Yamaha 2200 (there's more at work here than just "amps") - there is a difference I believe most can hear without straining.

As for dedicated amps sounding all the same? I don't think the $5K Krell would sound exactly like the $300 Onkyo, but your wallet and spouse will be happier if you couldn't appreciate the (likely) subtle differences, and bought the lower-priced item. I'm a big believer in "whatever floats your boat" ...

Just wanted to apologize to all you audio dudes.

I get carried away sometimes, and start tossing dirtballs at regular folks that I don't see eye to eye with.

Won't happen again.....got to keep my head on straight!