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M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
#195680 02/10/08 06:59 AM
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My setup (QS4, VP150, M22, Onkyo 805). I had this setup for 3 weeks already.

I went to listen to Best Buy and Circuit City and audition several speaker lines. Nothing really sounded as good Axiom at the price point.

I went to the Home Theater store and audition several speakers (B&W and Dynaudio). I like both sets B&W and Dynaudio; however it's really unfair to compare B&W to Axiom. The lowest price for B&W bookshelves are 1000/pr. IMO these sounds a tad fuller than the M22, same with the center channel comparison. The B&W towers were much more $$$.

However I was really impressed with the Dynaudio. Specifically the '42' bookshelves and center channel. He was quoting me 820 after discount for the bookshelves (add tax makes it ~900/pr, also if I was more serious I might have haggle more to get for less). I was impressed with treble details and clarity , mid range was really close to Axiom M22.

Dynaudio is technically twice the price of the Axiom M22; again maybe not a fair comparison. I read several review where the VP150 and M22 were too bright (thinking that bright means too detailed in treble is this correct?) I like treble detail.

Overall I am really like the VP150 and M22 but not really love them in comparison to the Dynaudio.

Note these are not direct A/B comparison but listening to my CD/movie that I brought to Home Theater.
I am going back to Home Theater tomorrow and request to do a direct A/B comparison (hope salesman lets me). Will keep you posted.

A closer comparison at the price point to the Dynaudio is the M60/M80. Now will the M60 or M80 give more treble clarity than the M22?

BTW my HSU 2.3 came in few days ago. This is a monster and really sounds great and very happy the Bass.

Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
keithpkp #195684 02/10/08 08:05 AM
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Keith, as you recognize at least to some extent, listening to different speakers at different locations at different times is nearly useless unless one of them is grossly inferior. Same place, same time, same music, volume set to same overall level(not just the same number), all of this is necessary, and blind listening would be even better.

Regardless of the price difference that you mention, it's difficult to believe that the other speaker actually has better treble detail than the M22s. An excessively elevated treble response(if this is the case)shouldn't be confused with better detail, but instead properly viewed as less accuracy.


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
JohnK #195688 02/10/08 02:38 PM
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I agree with John, unless your listening to them in the exact same surroundings, it is hard to say for sure which will sound better to you. You would have to use the same source equipment, positioning, and calibrate everything to the same levels when doing the blind A/B tests. This is my many use expensive switchers, so you can jump back and forth and not have to spend many minutes swapping out equipment between tracks.


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Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
keithpkp #195696 02/10/08 04:20 PM
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Keith, like John and Randy said, the best comparison is with the speakers side by side. Hopefully the salesman will accommodate you on this. I know it's hard, but try to put out of your head the differences in price. Spend some good time with each speaker listening to music you are familiar with and choose accordingly.

In the end, it's about getting a speaker you like! Not which one we'll tell you to get (Axiom, obviously), or which one the salesguy's gonna tell you is better (the most expensive one). The best bet is to see if you can take the Dynaudios or B&Ws home and try them out in your room. Hopefully the store has a return policy and will allow you to do this.

Let us know how things turn out.


***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose
Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
St_PatGuy #195789 02/11/08 04:07 AM
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OK guys. Spent 45 minutes at Home Theater Store today audition Axiom, B&W and Dynaudio. I listened at low, medium and high volume several times. Definitely my prefer sound would be the Dynaudio.
There is difference in treble clarity between the M22 and Dynaudio 42 and 52. Dynaudio plays a tad louder also. If I had to rate overall, if dynaudio is a 10 I would say M22 is 8.5 to 9. The Cherry Gloss on the M22 looks so much better though. If my limit is 470 USD then M22 is the choice.

Now I have a tad of a dilemma. I am willing spent for M60 or M80 if it gives the clarity that I want? The audition room was probably less than 1/2 of my true living room. My living room is 18X20 X 18 on ceiling so it's a huge room. The M22 is probably the wrong choice in the 1st place. Will the M60 or M80 gives me what I want in clarity? Has anyone upgraded from M22 to M60 or M80?

Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
keithpkp #195790 02/11/08 04:10 AM
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If you want to keep the clarity of the m22 but add some bass along with the ability to play loud in your big room, I would say go fro the m80 for sure.

This of course is based on what I have heard around here. I own the m80's but have not heard the m22 or m60.


-David
Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
keithpkp #195791 02/11/08 04:12 AM
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keithpkp, I think you're looking for this THREAD


High Gloss Cherry
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Open for Auditions but please don't drool on the High Gloss
Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
keithpkp #195808 02/11/08 11:30 AM
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 Quote:
Dynaudio plays a tad louder also.

Keith:
I think you'll find that members here aren't "schills", and if you prefer the Dynaudios that's completely up to you...no one here will try to push you towards Axiom.

But the sentence quoted above has me curious. Are you saying that the Dynaudios are rated to be more "efficient" or that they were louder at the comparison?


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
MarkSJohnson #195811 02/11/08 12:28 PM
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The Dynaudio Audience 42 has a sensitivity rating of 86 Db. I would try to audition the M80s and then choose the speaker that you prefer. The money is only a short term issue - how well you enjoy your speakers is much more important in the long run. Good luck in the search.

Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
davidsch #195923 02/11/08 10:08 PM
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Keith, I would also venture a guess that you didn't use a SPL meter to ensure the volumes were set equally when testing them as the Dynaudios are 4 ohm speakers and the M22s are 8ohm so the Dynaudios would have out played the M22s regardless, unless set up correctly. You probably would have needed to turn up the volume for the M22s by a couple of points on the receiver.

I have the M22s and M80s and the M80s play the mids and uppers as well as the m22 but throws it out to the listener better for your larger room and the benefit of going to the larger floorstanders is worth the extra money spent, just for the much fuller soundstage the M80s produce. The M80s are a full range speaker and capable of playing down to 30hz, the sound difference is very noticeable.


Jason
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Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
jakewash #195940 02/12/08 12:49 AM
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No I did not carry an SPL meter with me to the audition at the Home Theater. The volumes were = since this is a strict A vs B vs C test. They have a very good switcher at the Home Theater store.

I did call the Axiom and they recommended the M60 instead of M80 due to my receiver Onkyo 805.

Will the 2 tweeter on the M80 vs the one on M60 provides better/clearer treble?

Also did some research on Dynaudio, several posting have given rave reviews on their soft dome tweeter.

I am really not bashing the M22. For the price point they cannot be beat. I am happy the mid and low range. Dynaudio is better at the treble level (but note this is not night vs day). The physical appearance of the M22 is much more appealling (the cherry gloss finish matches my decor very well).

Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
keithpkp #196027 02/12/08 10:11 AM
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The M80s have a more forward presentation, the mids and upper range are more pronounced than the M60 at lower volumes. Once you crank up the volume on the M60s they sound almost identical to the M80s, at least that was my experience with the M60/M80 when I had them both.

Others on here have run M80s with Onkyo and haven't had problems, just depends on how long and loud you listen. I think Axiom shys away from them just to cover themselves if someone has a problem, as Onkyo's reportedly have had power supply issues in the past.

You should check the audition area in the Water Cooler forum to see if anyone around you has the M80s for a good comparison.


Jason
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Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
jakewash #196068 02/12/08 03:38 PM
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I think his point was that since one speaker creates less resistance than the other electrically, that it would appear slightly louder than the other if you don't move the volume dial to compensate.

Since it has been shown that in A/B tests people tend to always prefer the louder speaker, a "Strict" A/B test would have to include calibrating both sets of speakers so they play at the same volumes to make it fair.

That being said. The best choice is always whatever makes you feel the best within your budget. Enjoy!


With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.
Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
Murph #196135 02/12/08 10:28 PM
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I've been looking at the only graphs I can find for Dynaudio and they show a graph of their tweeter vs. a metal dome tweeter but the 2 graphs are not setup equally, the Dynaudio tweeter is only run to about 84 db while they run the metal tweeter up to 95db so of course it will show the Dynaudio to be a smoother graph they are not working it as hard.

Makes me wonder a little about a company that does things like that.

And yes Murph that was the point about the SPL meter, even though it was a good switch, if the speaker levels were not matched with a SPL meter then the test means nothing, as the listeners will always pick the louder speaker even if only a db or 2 louder. The Dynaudio being 4 ohms will play louder at all volume levels than the 8 ohm M22.


Jason
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QS8 v2
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Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
jakewash #196154 02/12/08 11:36 PM
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Agreed Jason,

My guess is that they didn't calibrate each speaker individually to make it a fair playing field. Of course, the Dynaudio would play louder if this was not done prior, at all volume levels.


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
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Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
SirQuack #196155 02/12/08 11:45 PM
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Keith, it would be my guess that the 60's or 80's would be a better fit to fill that 6,480 cu ft room. I have owned both 60v2's and 80v2's and my room is larger than yours.

The 80's will give you a little more in the detail area because of the dual tweeters and dual midrange drivers. Plus they can handle a lot more power. I've never owned the 22's, but I'm guessing even the 60's would perform better in the detail category and achieve louder levels as well.

Maybe someone else will chime in that has upgraded from 22's to 60's or 80's.


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
SirQuack #196174 02/13/08 02:22 AM
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I guy at my work has dynaudio's in his setup. He really seems to like them.

I want him to come check out my m80's though. I have a feeling when he hears how good my speakers sound and how little they cost in comparison he will wish he bought axiom!


-David
Re: M22/VP150 is good but less treble detail
SirQuack #196196 02/13/08 10:25 AM
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 Originally Posted By: sirquack

The 80's will give you a little more in the detail area because of the dual tweeters and dual midrange drivers. Plus they can handle a lot more power. I've never owned the 22's, but I'm guessing even the 60's would perform better in the detail category and achieve louder levels as well.



The M80s have the detail of the M22s and sound way fuller(better bottom end-obviously). I did find the M60s to be slightly lacking in detail compared to the M22s until I turned up the volume then the M60s really started to shine, but at lower volumes I found the M60s uppers and mids took a back seat to the lower end notes.

I think this is one instance where an audition is a must considering the OP's desire for more detail. I am not sure the M80s will have it or not as they are not that much, if at all, more detailed in the treble than the M22's. The M80s are just a better all around speaker, as they should be considering the size/design difference.

I guess it is possible Keith's treble/detail, is the lower mids that most of us that have made the jump to floor standers from the M22's, have noticed is not as prominent with them as we would like.


Jason
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