Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Axiom video cables.

How do axiom component video cables compare to monster video 3 or silver plated/coated component video cables.

I don't think anyone owns a pair yet. They were just released late last night.

:-D

I don't know about those, but save your money when it comes to optical cables. They either work or they don't.

I know silver is a better conducter, so I was wondering if anyone on this board has compared such products. Would the picture be noticeably better or should I save my money.

5, although silver is in fact the metal having the lowest electrical resistance, copper is the next lowest, and as shown in this table the difference is trivial compared to other metals. Copper is an essentially ideal relatively low cost electrical conductor. Of course there's a silver cable myth floating around among some audiophiles, despite the lack of scientific support. Save your money.

silver is a better conductor than copper but there are two different ways silver is employed by cable manufacturers and they do effect sound quality. silver coated wire is basically copper with just enough silver around it to cover the copper. the same idea as gold platet terminals. the silver is there to ensure there is no degradation in the copper. there is also an extremely expensive and high quality silver wiring that i know Audioquest uses in their RCAs and speaker wire; it's what they call PSS pure solid silver. it's basically a long strand of silver and about $1500 a foot. i don't know much about video cables but i spent about $100 for a decent set of components and they are fabulous. even though i don't have a bigscreen the picture is still wonderfully clear. always remember your home theater experience is only as good as your weakest link which for most of us is our cables and wiring.

chris

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silver coated wire is basically copper with just enough silver around it to cover the copper. the same idea as gold platet terminals. the silver is there to ensure there is no degradation in the copper.

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Well, maybe that's what the cable companies intend and/or advertise, but unfortunately silver (unlike gold or platinum) is almost as oxydation-prone as copper. Anybody who has a real set of silverware, or silver jewel or instrument, knows this.

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silver is a better conductor than copper but there are two different ways silver is employed by cable manufacturers and they do effect sound quality. (boldface added by sushi)

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Now, what did you just say??? (I'm not nitpicking about the word usage...)

Silver has less resisance but thats negligable. If someone is interested in using almost pure silver the cheapest way is to buy silver at a Bead Store, wholesale Jewelry cable store. Then one has to get teflon cable housing from a DIY store or Electronics store. I am planning to do that myself one day just for kicks. The cost of all this nonesense shound be less than $80. Mind you this way it is non shielded (unless the teflon cable housing is rated for shielded). I have heard Silver type speaker cables tend to highlight the higher frequencies.

I vote for "save my money".

$1500/foot. Couldn't ya just go to a jewlery store and buy a bunch of silver chain, link them together, cover them with teflon, stick an RCA on the end and come out a lot cheaper?

Well... My flute, all-silver and a little over 2' long, costed about $3000 25 years ago (today, the same model sells for ~$8000 new). So, $1500/foot is fairly reasonable... (NOT!)

Sushi,

Did you audition the all-copper flute as well?

Peter, I'm also a former woodwind player; the silver ones have much "brighter" highs, the copper ones are "warmer".

That makes a lot of sense, JohnK.

And I suppose prototypes have been made using aluminum, but they were found to sound "harsh" and "metallic."

I'm still pulling for gold. Or platinum. That's it! Platinum/titanium/palladium cables. I bet they'd sound great!

OK...I'm going to type something that I was going to keep for myself...but I figure the Axiom board and this discussion is a good place to disclose something that I experienced.

A couple of weeks ago someone came over to audition my Ascends. He wanted to bring his own integrated amp and CD player....interconnects and speaker wire.

Plugged everything in and we listened. Sounded great, he loved the CMT-340s.

I went into the other room to do something. The music stopped, I just figured he was changing CDs. I came back out and the same song was playing again, but it sounded different. I asked him what he did. And he said changed the interconnects. I told him it sounded more forward, and he said he thought so too....and that is the characteristic these interconnects had on the sound.....they were silver coated.

Now, I know some of you will question this, but I swear to you, I heard the difference and had no idea of the cable change until after the fact.

-curtis

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Peter, I'm also a former woodwind player; the silver ones have much "brighter" highs, the copper ones are "warmer".

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And for the ultimate warm tone, there are wooden flutes available.

But I'm not sure how a wooden speaker cable would sound, if it sounds at all...

Just so we're clear, are you talking about analog interconnects between the CD player and the preamp? Also, what kind/quality of interconnects were you using before?

I believe you may be on to something, sushi. Wood is not a good conductor, but if you create a cable out of long strands of wood fiber and soak that in a super-saturated NaCl solution, I think it could work.

It was not my equipment. He brought over his NAD 370 integrated amp....and a CD player(I forget the brand/model), he brought two sets of interconnects, and his own set of speaker wire. We hooked them up to the Ascends.

I do not know the brands of the interconnects.....but he ordered both sets from a shop in the UK. He is getting a set of Van Den Hul interconnects from the same place, and I am going to listen to them as well.

Curtis what would immediately come to my mind is that he turned the sound off or at least down instead of just pulling off the cable. When the new cable was plugged in the volume wasn't restored to precisely the same level. One of the key requirements in a double blind test is that volume levels be matched to within 0.1dB. Even a small volume increase not clearly apparent as such leads to conclusions that the higher volume is clearer and better in general.

OK....I knew this would happen....I'm just telling you all what I heard. You can speculate all you want.....just like I can. It was not so subtle that I really had to critically listen. It didn't sound "louder".

I walked out of the room....music stopped.....music started...I walked back in and heard a difference and asked questions.

The cables that he had were:
Qed "Qunex 2"
Black Rhodium "Rythm"

-curtis

Get the cheapest shiite you can, plug 'em in and you'll never know the difference (if there is any).

Hey Custis;

I've tried a couple of interconnects and the Vanderhul D102 MK3 Hybrids gave me the best sound of the lot with my setup. Thats what I use throughout. Kimber 4TC for speaker wires.

Saturn,

Thanks! Now I know how to spell Vanderhul!!

-curtis

Nope...it's actually "Van den Hul"

Here's their site: http://www.vandenhul.com/

OK...NOW I know how to spell it.

They're by no means inexpensive. $100+/pair

I'm not sure what model my buddy is getting...but he told me it was about $45/pr.

I looked on the web and could only find the D102 MK3 Hybrids for about 66 pounds...that made them about $110. The most I'll spend for an interconnect is $50-60. (and that's pushing it)

Hey Curtis;

I wasn't trying to correct your spelling. I was just mentioning what model I have. Actually as Craig mentioned I spelled it wrong. My spelling is horrible. Just look at most of my posts. I just don't have the time to proofread it again.

Hey Craig;

I do not think price was an issue for Curtis and I. Unless I am assuming too much but Curtis and I have a higher limit on cable expenditure than some since we or at least I "think" it does sometimes matter. Again its just a personal preference.

Saturn

Saturn,

I know you were not trying to correct me....no sweat.

And you are incorrect that I have a higher limit on cable expenditure. I use the word "budget" a lot in my audio vocabulary.

-curtis

Hey...when I spend $60 on a pair of interconnects people look at me like I've got two heads!

I'll probably start slowly replacing my Monster interconnects. I've come to HATE Monster cables. If for no other reason than the grip of death hold they have. I've ruined more than one RCA jack with those darn things. I'm NOT going to let that happen to my Rotel gear!

I'll likely go with Heartland Cables. Dan was really great to deal with. Delivered very quickly. And he uses those nifty new Eichmann Technologies' Bullet Plugs.

If you hate the Monster "grip of death" you should consider Outlaw Audio cables. The RCA/coaxial cables have twist locks, so they go on easy and screw on as tight as you want. They fit into the "bang for the buck" category, too.

The only problem with the Outlaw cables is that, thanks to the locking mechanism, the rca plugs are slightly larger than your average cable's plugs. In my case the plugs rubbed together on my cdp, which is a bit of a pain in the ass when you want to take them off/put them on (the main reason I replaced them). If your equipment has slightly wider than normal spacing for it's rca plugs, then this shouldn't be a problem.

i know how you feel. when i was doing some testing for my small home theater system a budget conscience friend of my had me do a little experiment with a single step upgrade in cables where the only difference was the terminal(one was gold plated the other silver plated we were using audioquests diamondback and coral analog cable) he told me to walk out of the room and he was going to pick on the of the two to use and then hit the play button. i heard the difference. the sound was a little brighter but there was much more quality and more of the music was actually brought out with just a $20 difference in cable. so i went with the coral which sound awesome and i highly recommend to anyone who has SACD and wants digital quality in an analog cable.

i totally disagree. if you can hear and spent some jack on your equipment then you need at least decent cables. remember guys your sound is only as good as your weakest link and if your $1000 cd player is hooked up to your $4000 reciever/pre/pro combo and your listening to it on $1500 pair of speakers is that $3 cable from wal-mart going to actually give you a good signal transfer? no it won't. there are limits to be in reason. i wouldn't spend $1500/ft for pss speaker wire either but $100 to equip the 2 main towers doesn't seem unreasonable if that's what i use 99% of the time. my surrounds will keep the $.40 16/4 wire that was originall put in due to the lenght of the run and i only listen to them on movies. anybody that sells euqipment recommends whatever you spend on equipment spend 10% on cables and wiring i.e. if you spend 5000 on equipment spend 500 on cables and wiring. thats what i did and i am completely happy with my sound quality. you do have to make compromises. spend the money where it will be used the most. if you usually listen to only music and not much tv spend more money on the interconnects from the music sounrce than from the tv source and so on.

chris

The 'weakest link' line is a cliche that does not apply as a generalization for all categories of life.
Price does not equal increased performance.

Copper is copper. Period.
It conducts electrical signals the same way whether wrapped in expensive teflon or less expensive nylon. Its electron cloud does not change under such circumstances.

The "10% of cost theory" is old and based on someone's idea of what should be. It has no basis supporting any fact of performance increase beyond an individual perception of 'better'.

Now look what you've gone and done Curtis.

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I've come to HATE Monster cables. If for no other reason than the grip of death hold they have. I've ruined more than one RCA jack with those darn things.

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Thanks for giving us yet another reason not to buy the Monster cables. All I ever want in a cable are RELIABILITY, RELIABILITY, and RELIABILITY. Without the damn basic mechanical/electrical reliability, "outstanding build quality," "high-spec looks," and /gasp/ "excellent sound quality" means absolutely nothing. After all, you should be able to hook up a cable and forget about it. So much for spending significant amounts of $$$ on the overpriced, relabeled OEM cables, only to find out later that they give you more troubles than benefits!

I guess I will stick to the inexpensive AR cables (and the like) from PartsExpress.com -- they've NEVER ever given me a trouble for the past >10 years. No grip-of-death breaking the RCA jacks of my precious electronics; No thickie plugs rubbing each other... And importantly, they sound just RIGHT, period!!! HAHAHA...

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The "10% of cost theory" is old and based on someone's idea of what should be.

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And of course, that "someone" is the very cable industry and dealers. Any questions?

My new system consists only of a carousel DVD player and an AV receiver connected by an optical digital cable. The DVD video signal is sent straight to the HDTV by component video cables (from Lowes). I'm completely satisfied w/ my current sound and video performance.
My M60s are connected w/ 12 gauge Monster copper that I picked up for free, but I would be just as comfortable using the 12 gauge garden lighting wire that I use for my QS8s.
No amount of psuedo-scientific marketing BS or anecdotes from delusional consumers will lead me to part with a single dime in the name of "wiring upgrades".

I take a little offense to that delusional remark. I don't mind people having different opinions, but nothing positive comes from demeaning remarks.

Up until two weeks ago, I didn't think cables could make a difference, but nobody ever proved to me that my thoughts were true.

I also recently heard differences between three different CD transports. Clear differences, all using the same external DAC and cables. This puzzles me even more than the cables.

Take it for what it is worth to you, but there is no need to call people delusional....you do not want this board becoming like AVS.

-curtis

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if you spend 5000 on equipment spend 500 on cables and wiring. thats what i did and i am completely happy with my sound quality. you do have to make compromises. spend the money where it will be used the most. if you usually listen to only music and not much tv spend more money on the interconnects from the music sounrce than from the tv source and so on.

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Well, Chris, I don't want to belittle your decisions or make you less happy, but if I were in exactly the same situation, I would have spent the bulk of those $500 to buy more CDs/DVDs. That would give me infinitely more tangible "improvements" in my AV experience -- in fact, the most expensive part of my own AV "system" has always been and will remain my music CD/LD/DVD collections.

Okey guys lets end this. Many a times we have traveled down this path (me included). It won't be resolved as with cables, tubes and power amps. Its up to every individual to justify costs and your plain ole ears to make the decision. Lets keep it civil. We are all friendly and lets keep it that way.
We are here for knowledge be it bias or not.

I've been through numerous similar "mysterious" experiences like the ones that Curtis described, ever since my awakening as an audiomusicophile in my high school years (in mid/late '70s). Early on, I had once even wrapped my speaker cables with aluminum foil after reading somewhere about the wonderful effects of such treatments -- and actually heard the difference! I also tried a good number of different "seating materials" on my Denon turntable -- and I thought I heard an improvement. I swear that each and every one of my own such experience was REAL when it happened. However, to my disappointment, NONE of them was reliably reproducible later; I did not even need to blind myself to re-test them with negative results (yes, I was aware of the concept of blind testing already in the '70s, even before going to college).

Fast forward two decades, after moving to Texas and initially settled on the Adcom 200W/325Wx2 power amp that I still use, I brought in home a number of "high-end" amps from dealers and friends in order to seek for a better sounding amp. In several occasions, I did hear a clear improvement with a new amp, which obviously made me very excited. However, again, EVERY one of these "improvements" was later found out to be so unreliable, much to my own dismay -- one day, I thought I heard the difference, the next day, I wouldn't... In the end, I was never able to convince myself into investing additional $$$ (not an insignificant amount, btw) in any of these amps. Again, I never even tried to blind myself, or set up a true instantaneous A/B comparison. I simply relied on my own ears, manually swapping the amps... Mind you, I wasn't doing these tedious in-home tests in order to "prove" that these high-end amps were no better than my Adcom. Rather, I was eagerly willing to buy one of those if I was convinced that they provide a definitive sonic improvement. I was disappointed in the end...

So, Curtis (and others), the practical $0.02 I have here is that a one-time experience may have very little significance in the end. Don't try to convince yourself just yet, based on those "chance observations." Rather, first try to see if the phenomenon reliably repeats itself again and again, on different times and occasions, irrespective of time of the day, astrological alignments, and your own mood. You should go from there...

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So, Curtis (and others), the practical $0.02 I have here is that a one-time experience may have very little significance in the end. Don't try to convince yourself just yet, based on those "chance observations." Rather, first try to see if the phenomenon reliably repeats itself again and again, on different times and occasions, irrespective of time of the day, astrological alignments, and your own mood. You should go from there...

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Understood. But I am going to have more of an open mind about it than I did before.

You don't have to believe it...not sure I do either, but I do know what I heard, and the circumstances.

There is no reason to make demeaning remarks. That degrades this great board.

-curtis

Getting back on topic... For anyone interested (this is sort of a double post, so I'll keep it brief) we did a sneak preview of the Axiom Cables here. This rather subjective "sneak peek" will be followed up by an objective article which will include test measurements, etc.

How did they sound? Transparent, like I expected. I really don't want cables that make my system sound better, chances are that if I hear a significant difference, then one of the cables is a giant inductor!

The video cables are excellent with no apparent problems. Component video and S-video signal was transferred without any visible problems using AVIA as a guide. I know what my monitor is capable of, so comparing a video cable swap is easy to do and can be done without a DBT configuration.

"Delusional" was not meant as an offensive remark, nor was it necessarily directed at you, Curtis. I meant "delusional" as in "deluded, mistaken, misled, etc..." - not "crazy and drooling".