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Re: the wine thread
michael_d #190814 01/06/08 06:01 PM
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 Originally Posted By: mdrew
Chess,

With my older vintage reds (a very nice ’91 Columbia Crest Cab I had last week for example), I use the decanter as well, but its primary purpose is to filter out the sediment. Plus, it just adds to the ambiance of drinking a damn fine bottle of wine…..

I don't disagree with that at all.
Decanting helps to keep some of the sediment in the primary bottle and it presents more nicely at a table IMO.

 Quote:
With “younger” wines, I am referring to some of 03 cabs I have now (and younger) that I’ve lost patience cellaring and just want to drink. I also grab the decanter for any Petit Syrah’s or Zins. I don’t worry too much about Merlot, Pinot, Syrah, Shiraz or Malbecs. I never use it for whites….

Well now this is a perfect example as to why i want to test this blind tasting after aeration.
Why not a merlot, shiraz or malbec, but yes for cabs?
These are some of the widely reported variations i hear but have seen less proof than what exists for audio myths.
A fellow wine connoiseur in town is huge on aerating all his reds and has started to believe it helps the whites.
From the quote above, you are of a different opinion.
I want to test the starting basis, "can a change be detected"?
After that, any further statements about preferences for aeration and non-aeration would be up to the individual.

 Quote:
I’m just throwing a WAG out there, but I would say that when using the decanter, it adds no less than two years of cellar time to a bottle. It opens up, brings out the nose and finish and mellows the tannins a bit.
And others say that it adds one year, or 10 years.
I want to test the basic truth before throwing out guesses.
I can honestly say that i'm going into this test with a bias since i do believe wines taste different after they have been open for a day or more sitting on the counter, with somewhat less material inside than when it was opened (e.g. at least one glass poured out).
I've always wondered if the loss of alcohol through evaporation was a major contributor.
The local grand sommelier stated that the little vacuum pumps help but only compressed N gas in little canisters before re-stoppering a bottle would be useful in delaying the reactions. He obviously believes that oxygen is the sole contributor to change, however environmental chemistry is far more complex than that.

 Quote:
As far as time in the decanter, I suggest one hour or however long it takes for the juice to reach room temperature. Don’t be bashful with swirling it in the decanter while waiting either. My decanter came with a filter that has several small holes in the bottom that spread the flow of wine out to the sides of the decanter. It works very well but I also swirl it a few times.

For the test i will have to come up with a relatively common method for decanting aeration and set a reasonable time.
I'm thinking, soft pour down the side (typical for people to do to decrease the amount of sediment transfer) followed by a 30 minute to 2 hour sitting time. I'm thinking 30 minutes since most restaurants use a smaller figure so you can get around to dinner, but i'm also thinking 1 to 2 hours to be sure there is enough reasonable time for reactions to take place AND i know many people at home subscribe to the 1 hour minimum as a rule of thumb, sometimes longer.

 Quote:
So give it a try and post back if you think this is all bogus or if you can tell a difference. I’m quite sure you will notice a difference if you go into this with an un-biased attitude.

Like i said, i'm already biased towards tasting a change, i'm just not sure after how much, how long and using what aeration method.
Still need ideas for a good wine that is considered as a definite candidate for change for the tasting.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: the wine thread
michael_d #190815 01/06/08 06:19 PM
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Mike,
The Elevage was a mix of Cab, Merlot and Petite Verdot.
We were already thinking about heading to Napa during the spring to see my wifes father, the kids Easter vacation will dictate the actual dates though, it would be great if the V2 fell within that week.


A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
Re: the wine thread
HomeDad #190826 01/06/08 08:03 PM
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Chess,

You are definitely a scientist…. LOL..

I’m not, nor claim to be an expert at this. I’m still learning how to identify smells and tastes, so this decanting element is new to me as well. I have always noticed (prior to decanting) that the more ‘bold’ wines such as young cabs with a strong tannin presence mellow out (for lack of a better description) when it sits in a glass until it reaches room temperature. That is the only basis I have for recommending one hour. I’ve found that in my home, one hour is about how long it takes for the bottle to rise to room temp when in a decanter. I also limit decanting to the cabs and P-Syrahs, and some Zins because the ones I buy are usually heavy bodied with strong tannin presence. So, keeping that in mind, it may be that while I enjoy the big reds the most out of all wines, they come with a price. The price being tannins and its associated dryness, which is something that I do not enjoy. Merlots, Pinots, Syrahs, etc that I buy tend to be mellow with little tannin. If I could just afford, and only drink heavy / bold vintage cabs, I would be in wino bliss and probably not worry about decanting for aeration reasons. As far as whites, I’m just not a big white wine fan. While I enjoy them at times, they aren’t something I have a great desire to drink. So keeping that in mind, I’d suggest that you try a fairly young (04 or 05) Cab Sav that you know is of heavy body and fruit forward. Maybe one of the Beranger reserves, one of the Flora Springs Cabs, or if you can get one, a Mount Veder Reserve Cab Sav would be an excellent test bottle. At any rate, I look forward to hearing from you after you do your ‘testing’…

Michael,

I’m still waiting for the invitation, so I’m not real sure when it will be this year. It would be cool if we end up in the Valley at the same time. We could take a couple bottles to the Rutherford Grill and have dinner. (they don’t have a corking fee and actually decant your bottle, plus, I still daydream about their cornbread).

Re: the wine thread
michael_d #190847 01/06/08 10:26 PM
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Mike,
That would be fun if the dates work out, it would be no problem for us to have Grandpa watch the kids for a day or evening.


A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
Re: the wine thread
michael_d #190861 01/06/08 11:48 PM
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 Originally Posted By: mdrew
Chess,

You are definitely a scientist…. LOL..

Guilty as charged.

 Quote:
I’m not, nor claim to be an expert at this. I’m still learning how to identify smells and tastes, so this decanting element is new to me as well.

I'm still working on expanding my repertoire. The wine guides have been very helpful in providing a more broad range of descriptors.

 Quote:
I have always noticed (prior to decanting) that the more ‘bold’ wines such as young cabs with a strong tannin presence mellow out

This is a common notation which i hope we can review.
Incidentally, i just got back from one of the neighbors place and he cracked open a Peter Lehmann Clancy. He then pulled out one of his Christmas gifts and yep, it sure was a wine aerator, the Vinturi, as previously mentioned.
I talked to them extensively about the wine tasting idea and i may approach some of our neighbor in the near future about giving this a go.

Thankfully one of them is also an audiophile and two of them recently had media rooms added to their basements, though no Axiom owners.
An overall great conversation evening with some of my fav topics.

As for the 'test' wine, a Beringer Founders Estate cab sav i can get locally.
That is one option.
Any broad name zins and cabs from the US should be available here, but none of the ones mentioned so far other than the Beringers are familiar to me. I would have to check.
How about a Gnarly Head old vine zin?


Last edited by chesseroo; 01/06/08 11:50 PM.

"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: the wine thread
chesseroo #190865 01/07/08 01:18 AM
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 Originally Posted By: chesseroo
[quote=mdrew]

As for the 'test' wine, a Beringer Founders Estate cab sav i can get locally.
That is one option.
Any broad name zins and cabs from the US should be available here, but none of the ones mentioned so far other than the Beringers are familiar to me. I would have to check.
How about a Gnarly Head old vine zin?

Sounds like you will have an excellent time sipping good juice and talking audio. I’m jealous….

I have not had, or heard of the Gnarly Head, sorry. Pretty much any Beranger will be a good test. They tend to have a heavy Spice and Tobacco taste/smell to them. Aeration helps tame that, or so I have found anyway.

Another good one to try that may be available is a Stag’s Leap Petite Syrah. I just had a 02 the other night at a friend’s house and really wished we had a decanter. Great bottle of wine, but it took a good hour before it really opened up. Are they available where you’re at?

I'll give this some more thought and try and come up with some more vino's that might be good to test this with.

Another thought....Italian and French wines tend to have a heavy tannin to them. I don't care much for them for that reason. I know they intentionally design their wines for drinking with food and the tannin presence helps in that regards, but I buy wine to drink without needing food (although I do enjoy wine paring dinners), so I stick with US wines in general. So considering this, I suspect just about any heavy bodied red from Italy or France will be a good test candidate.

Re: the wine thread
michael_d #190866 01/07/08 01:34 AM
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Stag's Leap is available here but expensive.
Keep in mind that we will need multiple bottles of the same wine given the number of possible tasters so we can't break any banks.

Approx. 3-4 people for sure, three bottles min. one for each aeration method and one fresh corker for an appropriate number of glass volumes for each person PLUS an extra 'fresh corker' to act as the blind glass.

The layout would be, tasters receiving 4 glasses, 2 aerated, 2 not and from the same bottle.
This way no taster can assume the next glass 'should' taste different. They will only know that two of the four might taste different but may not know which ones should or should not.

With four people tasting, someone should be consecutively correct.

We will of course have to try this at least twice to verify results and possibly a third evening with a different wine.

At this time i'm thinking, Peter Lehmann Clancy (about $18 bottle, reasonable, but nice to drink).
Possibly the Fetzer cab sav (about $14 a bottle, again nice drinker or with food).
Maybe even a Mondavi Woodbridge cab sav ($14 per bottle and some think it can be a bit unrefined).


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: the wine thread
chesseroo #190867 01/07/08 01:35 AM
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Maybe i'll consider one of these to ensure the quality of the pours:

Wine Decanting Machine by Ercuis



Last edited by chesseroo; 01/07/08 01:40 AM.

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Re: the wine thread
chesseroo #190954 01/07/08 07:02 PM
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Fascinating discussion.

 Quote:
I've always wondered if the loss of alcohol through evaporation was a major contributor


I'd subscribe to that.

Most of my experience in this area is with beer rather than wine, but many of the principles are the same. Chess, I liked very much your mention of environmental change factors being more than just exposure to oxygen. I think there is a pretty fine line between "aeration" and "oxidization", though. I'd submit that there is such a thing as "too much" aeration, but I wouldn't know where to begin to measure it. It would be interesting to take a sample to the aeration extreme (put it in the blender?) and see how it is perceived.

Like Mike, I am NOT a scientist. It does make sense to me that the many different compounds in wine would be affected to different degrees by some of the methods you discuss. Also, don't forget about the impact of light. I'll bet decanted wine under hot lights tastes different than decanted wine in the dark, if you know what I mean.


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Re: the wine thread
tomtuttle #191024 01/08/08 03:32 AM
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Our Vinturi arrived today. So for the occasion I grabbed a 2004 Via Vega Red wine of Paso Robles out of the cellar and let it get to room temp.
The owner is the former Red wine maker for J. Lohr Winery in Paso Robles. This is a bottle that we always decanter being that it is fairly young and strong . The varietal make up is 46% Mouvedre, 42% Touriga Nacional, and 12% Souzao. As soon as the wife got home I grabbed two identical glasses and sent her into the dining room and popped the cork. One glass through the Vinturi one glass straight. I brought the two glasses to my wife, and with one sniff into each glass before even tasting she picked the glass that had been through the Vinturi. I asked her to taste the wine and tell me what she thought, After tasting she again chose the Vinturi glass and said "This is how the wine's supposed to taste" I then tried both glasses and had to agree, the Vinturi did in seconds what it can take a decanter up to an hour or more to do, it took the bite out of a young wine and made it immediately drinkable. We were both very impressed with this nifty little gadget.


A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
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