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Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
#206382 05/01/08 04:26 AM
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I spent some time today researching ABX methods for this listening session as I wanted to quantify the subjective differences as much as possible between these two subs. In order to derive statistically significant results that chess would be happy with \:\) , I'd have to do the following for music and then again for movies:

1. Compare with at least four different independent variables (ie. 4 subs or 3 subs and no sub),
2. Conduct at least 4 listening sessions with 4 people in each,
3. Conduct at least 16 trials per two-pair combination of independent variables for a total of 6 combinations and 96 trials per listening session. This is a total of 384 trials,
4. Each of the 96 trials per session would last at least one minute for a total of at least 96 minutes. More realistically, two to two-and-a-half hours would be required per session,
5. The participants would have to comprehend detailed instructions prior to their arrival,
6. The participants would have to complete four forms during each session,
7. The environment would have to be low stress with no time constraints.

While I think an exercise like this would be very revealing, finding the people to make this kind of a listening commitment has turned out to be tough.

So instead, we will have to live with the usual subjective evaluations from Mojo and friends \:\) . I'm hoping to post my comments before Sunday and then others can join in next week.


House of the Rising Sone
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Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
Mojo #206411 05/01/08 02:10 PM
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Ah, there's the engineer in you coming out! \:\)

I'm sure that more than a few of us look forward to your evaluation!


Epic 80 / SVS PB13 Ultra
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Sammy 55" LED
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
Spoiler #206904 05/05/08 04:48 AM
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If you've ever wanted to know which of these subs has more air and snap, sounds harder or softer, which is crisper and better defined, more textured and smoother, more resonant, deeper, louder, mellower, more focused and up front, fuller or more saturating, you must act now!

And there's more! All of these qualities are revealed on a track-by-track, scene-by-scene basis for three different SPL modes: night, normal and show-off. No punches are pulled; no detail is withheld.

If you act now, you will find out details about Mojo's room, speaker positions and levels. Sub, integrated receiver and SPL details are completely revealed. Find out which sub caused infrasonic ripples on the floor above and which sub looked like it was going to come apart. Now you can discover which sub remained in full control during a 5Hz track that came with a warning from the artist; and which one bottomed out. All this knowledge for you, in the comfort of your own home.

As if all this wasn't enough, Mojo unveils his own personal musings. What kind of bass is righteous? Which sub is preferrable? Which of these two vendors is the better businessman? Which one is the better engineer? Which one has more work to do? How should you compare subs and what is the one single question that almost no one on the planet asks about their sub before they buy?

Yes, all of this wisdom can be yours. Be the first in your neighborhood to have this vast knowledge. Impress your family, friends, pets and other loved ones. Normally, a review like this would sell for a few hundred dollars. But now, it's free.

So don't hesitate. E-mail halfwattorbust@shaw.ca. That's h-a-l-f-w-a-t-t-o-r-b-u-s-t@s-h-a-w.c-a. Don't delay...act today. A virus-free, spyware-free and adware-free pdf in genuine Mojo hand-writing (sort of \:\) ) will be e-mailed to you.

I can't believe the things I do for you guys \:D .

Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
Mojo #206909 05/05/08 06:03 AM
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If we call within the next ten minutes, do we get a free squeegee, too! (credit card in hand)








So, is your review only available via email?


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
St_PatGuy #206920 05/05/08 12:47 PM
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Sean,

Yes because my notes are in pdf.


House of the Rising Sone
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Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
Mojo #206924 05/05/08 01:16 PM
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Okay, gotcha. Email sent!


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
St_PatGuy #206943 05/05/08 02:14 PM
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Mojo, thanks for the excellent review.


Dave
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
DaveG #206946 05/05/08 03:02 PM
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You're welcome.


House of the Rising Sone
Out in the mid or far field
Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
Mojo #206950 05/05/08 03:14 PM
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Sent you an email with my address. Look forward to reading the review.


-David
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
DaveG #206987 05/05/08 05:14 PM
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Agreed. Excellent notes/review.
Rich

Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
samandnoah #206994 05/05/08 05:34 PM
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concurred


-David
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
terzaghi #207007 05/05/08 06:24 PM
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Yes really good review. Well worth posting. Glad to see Mojo assessing the nuances of sub performance.






John
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
jakeman #207010 05/05/08 06:30 PM
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I'm actually impressed you guys can read my hand-writing \:\) .


House of the Rising Sone
Out in the mid or far field
Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
Mojo #207028 05/05/08 08:28 PM
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Why don't you post a link to the pdf?

Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
pmbuko #207044 05/05/08 10:35 PM
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What server can I use for that?


House of the Rising Sone
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Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
Mojo #207055 05/06/08 12:56 AM
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Yes, thanks for the review, Tex!


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
Mojo #207065 05/06/08 02:37 AM
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filedump.net works. Bad logo, though.

Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
pmbuko #207071 05/06/08 03:53 AM
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I can always put it up on my webspace if you want.

Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
CV #207073 05/06/08 04:56 AM
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Instead of waiting:

Mojo's Comparison of Axiom EP600 to SVS PB-13 Ultra

Also, I finally read the whole thing. Nice write-up. Did you try running them together much?

Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
CV #207080 05/06/08 11:20 AM
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Fantastic writeup Mojo! 2 quick questions:

1) Why did you employ a parametric EQ point on one sub (the SVS) and not the other (the EP600). I know the SVS has one built in, but it doesn't seem fair to compensate one sub and not the other.

2) Have you tried comparing the 2 subs with the EP600 in FULL mode? That setting may bring up more of the higher end sub frequencies to bring them even closer together. The curves for my EP500s look much better in FULL than FLAT in my room.

-Steve


LFR1100 Actives,QS10HPx2,QS8x2,EP800,M3x4,M3x2 (Wood),M5HPx2 (Wood),AxiomAir,ADA1500-8,ADA1500-7
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
SRoode #207085 05/06/08 12:36 PM
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So, let's say, hypothetically, I want to do my own A/B comparison between these two subwoofers in my room. \:\/

If I were to set up such a scenario, one problem I see is that locating them next to one another is next to impossible in my room. I could place them in opposite corners (front/rear diagonal of one another) but since placement makes such a difference, does this defeat the whole purpose of an A/B comparison? I do now have a BFD parametric EQ, so I could tune both to a flat response at my main listening position and conduct the test after the tuning and setup had been done. If I added that into the comparative process, am I more likely to be doing a fair comparison?

Call me lazy, but with 250lbs of "subbage" between the two, I'm trying to avoid a lot of movement. I mean... if I were going to do this, I'd really want to avoid all that movement.

Jason


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
myrison #207088 05/06/08 02:15 PM
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There is three schools on comparing subs but all involve placing the subs in the same spot or right beside each other. One thought is to run them flat as is with the same material and walk around the room to develop impressions. The second way is to sit in the same spot always and equalize both to avoid inconsistencies such as using a parametric equalizer on one and not the other. The third way is to use whatever tools come with the sub such as a single shot equalizer, trim controls, variable phase etc. Most of the time these three approaches yield the same impressions but not always.


John
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
jakeman #207093 05/06/08 03:28 PM
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Thanks John. I figured you'd say that. \:\)


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
myrison #207262 05/07/08 09:00 PM
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I have not really been keeping up with the sub scene, I just popped over to Craigsub's new website, and he has new rankings up. I guess AV123 released a new sub called the MFW-15 (15"), they sell duals for $998 currently, each with a 350watt amp, and according to his rankings, match the performance of a single Ultra 13 (but with better musicality).

Mojo, you need to order a couple of these and give us your impressions!

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11

I am curious as to where the new EP350v3 would fit in. but that MFW-15 looks like a killer deal...unfortunately they are back ordered on the satin black until july!

Last edited by Hutzal; 05/07/08 09:02 PM.

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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
Hutzal #207264 05/07/08 09:25 PM
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Don't forget to add in the shipping costs for the subs up to us folks north of the 49th which nearly kills the deal. I have been debating on putting in an order for a single


Jason
M80 v2
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PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
jakewash #207267 05/07/08 09:42 PM
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from the looks of it, a single is 103 points, even with $100 extra shipping, thats $700 CAD, really, for that performance its a no brainer. I am moving to the states in the Fall...WOOOHOOO bring on the deals!

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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
Hutzal #207287 05/08/08 12:50 AM
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I think the shipping is a little more than $100, closer to $200, IIRC. Either way it is still a pretty good deal except if something goes wrong, then you get to add even more shipping charges.

Moving, Where to?


Jason
M80 v2
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QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
jakewash #207303 05/08/08 02:18 AM
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 Originally Posted By: jakewash
I have been debating on putting in an order for a single

I would be willing to chip in on the shipping just to get a comparison to the EP350. You've done a lot of research 'on my behalf' so far.

This sub is awfully hyped so I am a little sceptical.


Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
fredk #207357 05/08/08 02:05 PM
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Califor-niii-aaaaa


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
Hutzal #207371 05/08/08 03:40 PM
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That narrows it down.

I was born in Santa Paula. Lived in Bakersfield, My sister presently lives in Foster City, I had a friend living in Mountainview.....


Jason
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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
jakewash #207783 05/11/08 03:18 PM
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Another review & comparison:

Last week, tomtuttle (Tom), samandnoah (Rich), and WhatFurrer (Steve) all came by for some comparative listening tests between these two subs as well as a demo of the entire Epic 80 system as a few of these guys hadn't heard the 80s in action before. The get-together was a ton of fun, but for now I'll focus on the comparison of the subs given the subject of this thread.

I'll attempt to repeat what I heard from everyone while we were listening, though of course it'd be better if they all jumped in and commented themselves. \:\)

First, some technicalities. I did move both subs next to each other (grunt, groan) in the right rear corner of the room. Room trim on both was off, XO was in bypass on the sub, 100hz in the receiver (not my normal listening XO, but for purposes of the curve, I wanted to go out further), the SVS was tuned to its 10hz setting, which means 2 of the 3 plugs were put into the ports on the front of the sub).

Both subs were tuned to 80 dB, the mains were tuned to 75, center to around 78. Just my personal preference, no further science to the choice. The subs were then also both tuned to a flat response individually using the BFD. (As a side note, this is one truly miraculous little device - I HIGHLY recommend it for flattening in-room response.)

Here is a comparative view of the tuned response curves:


Just as comparison, here are the two curves before the BFD tamed them (witness the power of the BFD!)


As you can see, they both have a nice flat response from 20 - 90hz, with the only noticeable difference in the sub 20hz range, where the SVS is capable of producing ~15-25 dB more than the 600 in my room. (this is running it in its lowest tuned mode, to 10hz, which cuts total SPL possible from the SVS, but in my room, I've yet to approach its limits, so there's not much downside for me to tuning it down to the 10hz mode.

Now, onto the actual thoughts/reviews...

Opinions were very mixed on the subs depending on source material. For the U571 scene, I felt that the SVS was absolutely incomparably better (blow your pants off better), but others weren't as certain as they felt it was almost overpowering, which I guess is what I like. \:\) Tom pointed out that he liked the 600 more on the U571 explosion scenes because he thought the SVS was overpowering the mains and not producing any of the finer details in the explosions of the depth charges. The SVS was clearly louder and produced more "shake your pants" effect, but for him the 600 was still a nicer sound. Rich and Steve agreed that they noted this difference, though I don't remember as clearly which one they liked better.

We also watched the opening scene of Toy Story 2 where the opening credits roll in and the following scene where Buzz infiltrates Zurg's headquarters. In these scenes as well, the SVS was clearly deeper and louder. The output was so much louder with the SVS that it led all of my guests asking whether the two subs were really tuned to the same volume, which they were, but I'm still not sure everyone believed me. ;\) (despite knowing that I'd done this myself, the difference was so noticeable that I was questioning myself as well).

For music, the SVS was a little harder to blend into the rest of the material. Despite Rich's objections, we listened to Hotel California from the Eagles DVD (in DTS) to test the subs' performance on music.

Here I believe we all agreed that the 600 definitely smoothed into the background more nicely without additional tuning effort, which I can't really explain considering the very comparable response curves. When I knocked down the SVS by 2 or 3 dB in the Denon's menu, it blended a bit more nicely but still not as well as the 600. With that said, I still feel like somewhat of a neophyte when considering all of the options on the amp for the SVS and need to do more work with the various tuning options before giving a final verdict on musical performance.

Since the test, because of the strange volume differences we observed during both music and movies, I blanked everything out of the BFD and Denon and recalibrated everything one more time to ensure that there was nothing off in the setup. That took a couple of hours and I haven't been able to actually do any more comparative testing, but at this point the room is ready for it. \:\) I plan on doing more this week (Mother's day is not an idea day for such tests it appears). I'll post back with my thoughts.

Jakewash, I'm looking forward to what you think as well now that you've got it back in your room.


Epic 80-800: HG Cherry
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
myrison #207784 05/11/08 03:23 PM
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Sounds like a fun GTG! I look forward to reading the others' impressions.

Thanks for posting your impressions, Jason. Of course, I won't believe a word you say until I see pics. ;\)

Last edited by St_PatGuy; 05/11/08 03:28 PM.

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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
St_PatGuy #207791 05/11/08 05:51 PM
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Great info myrison! I can tell from looking at your curves that you have a great room even without the BFD (+/-5db from 20Hz to 100Hz on the EP600, not as good with the SVS). Out of curiosity, how many filters did you employ on the BFD to get the resultant curve?


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
SRoode #207792 05/11/08 06:20 PM
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Around 7 as a first pass to get them reasonably flat. To get them where they were in the pictures, which is probably a bit of overkill, 13 for the 600, 14 for the SVS. I configure the Left channel for the 13 and right channel for the SVS in the BFD so that I don't have to change any settings when doing A/B testing.

Once I pick one, I will use the R&L channels to tune whichever sub I keep and my Earthquake sub to give the best smoothed response throughout the room with the two running together.


Epic 80-800: HG Cherry
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
myrison #207800 05/11/08 07:56 PM
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myrison, can you post a link to this BFD device that you speak of?


-David
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
terzaghi #207809 05/11/08 09:25 PM
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I believe they're talking about the Behringer Feedback Destroyer, if that helps narrow your search. I see a couple Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pros on Behringer's site. I'm not sure what model they're talking about.

Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
CV #207811 05/11/08 09:27 PM
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It' the FBQ-2496. Nice piece of equipment.


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
SRoode #207856 05/12/08 12:10 PM
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With link: FBQ-2496. I bought it from this place as they had some demo units going for $30 cheaper at the time. For 120-150, it makes a heck of an impact.


Epic 80-800: HG Cherry
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
myrison #207938 05/12/08 08:09 PM
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Sorry I'm slow to jump in, but I seemed to have suffered the same Mother's Day audio moratorium Jason did. I've been married long enough (and to 2 different women at that!)that it was a self-imposed moratorium. \:\)

Anyhow, I think Jason captured it spot on, at least for me. I own an EP500, and have owned an SVS 20-39 pci. It was pretty easy to tell which sub was playing each and every time. Talk about a "signature sounds". I had never participated in a true blind test before. So I'm no expert, but it was fun.

That SVS hit low and it hit hard. It was very impressive in that regard for movies. I know it's a bit of a cliche, but it literally had my pant legs flapping on both Toy Story 2 and U571. I could hear the point about all of the LFE almost obscuring the higher frequencies of the metal twisting, but I'm not sure that I personally missed it as much. The EP600 was no slouch by any stretch of the imagination when we played those scenes, but they were clearly different.

For the music (which was focused on DVDs) the Axiom was my preferred choice. The SVS would seem almost too intrsuive at times. That was why we asked to see if dialing it down a little would help. When Jason did that, it did seem to blend a little better, but I still felt that the Axiom was more tuneful and integrated. The Axiom filled in the low end without calling attention to itself.

Even though the 2 subs were co-located, the SVS initially was the sub closer to the wall/corner. To rule out any additional corner loading benefits for the SVS, Steve suggested that we swap their positions. That really didn't seem to have that much of an impact on our overall impressions.

In the end, it really boils down to personal preferences (talk about cliches!). Both are fine subs. I think you need to consider your content, and hear them both to figure out which appeals to you more. I definitely came out of there pretty ambivalent, and was not sure what I would do. It's easier to be impressed by the sheer attack of the SVS on film content than it is by the subtlety of the Axiom's music performance.

Listening to them also made me start pondering what was the audio engineer's intent? Which of those subs was reproducing what the movie maker or musician wanted? Would they say one sub was better than the other? But that's an entirely different thread, and one that I've seen beaten to death as well. But it did come to mind as I was trying to decide if there was a "winner".

Many thanks to Jason (and his wife!) for so graciously hosting this mini gtg on a weeknight. Jason had clearly worked on this long and hard, and had considered many of the variables. I was impressed with his thoroughness. The overall set up was gorgeous and sounded terrific. So I really appreciated the opportunity to hear and see all of this. And it was awesome to meet Tom and Steve!

Rich

Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
samandnoah #207957 05/12/08 10:02 PM
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I aspire to Rich's eloquence.

No dissent from me on synopses presented thus far. I think both Jason and Rich captured everything quite well.

It was fantastic to get together and enjoy some truly spectacular home theatre experiences. That Epson projector rocked my world.

The SVS really pressurized the room in a satisfying way. It made me wonder about a few things. First, were the differences we heard attributable to the gaps in the graphs at <20Hz or at ~25Hz or something else ("headroom"?)? Second, I know Jason has fiddled endlessly with setup to even the field, and to great effect. One of the things we did NOT do was to increase the gain on the EP600. Jason's experience has been that doing so made a muddy mess (or was it a boomy blasphemy?). I wish we had time to fiddle with that variable a bit.

Another thing that was reinforced for me is the absolute importance of size and shape of the room.

I had a great time, and developed a pretty advanced case of sub envy. I can't imagine more pleasant companions for a listening session.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
tomtuttle #207958 05/12/08 10:09 PM
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I wish I could have been there, I would have really enjoyed testing the setups and meeting you guys. It sounded like it was a lot of fun!


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
tomtuttle #207967 05/12/08 11:35 PM
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did you guys ever play both of the subs together?


-David
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
terzaghi #207973 05/13/08 12:02 AM
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No, but funny that you ask, I was just now looking for enough Y-splitters to give it a run. (thus far, I'm one short)


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
myrison #207975 05/13/08 12:03 AM
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daisy chain the svs sub from the ep600.


-David
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
terzaghi #207979 05/13/08 12:19 AM
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Sorry, I wasn't really typing what I meant... I just need more cables period. But yes, I found another cable and ran them together. (my teeth now hurt from the combined effect)

To do it justice, I'd have to spend a ton more time running them together, but I could tell that just by turning the phase on one to 180 and stringing them both together, room response in different locations is much better. With just one running, it's very hit and miss depending on which couch you're on.

My wife jokingly told me at one point after all the time I've spent comparing to keep both, but I suspect she didn't really mean it. \:\) There is only so much floor space in my room.


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
myrison #207982 05/13/08 12:28 AM
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Shoot, all that space below viewing height between the front row and the screen is just wasted anyway. \:\)

Ladies and gentlemen, the EP600H Ottoman.


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
Mojo #207999 05/13/08 03:09 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Mojo
I spent some time today researching ABX methods for this listening session as I wanted to quantify the subjective differences as much as possible between these two subs. In order to derive statistically significant results that chess would be happy with \:\) , I'd have to do the following for music and then again for movies:

1. Compare with at least four different independent variables (ie. 4 subs or 3 subs and no sub),
2. Conduct at least 4 listening sessions with 4 people in each,
3. Conduct at least 16 trials per two-pair combination of independent variables for a total of 6 combinations and 96 trials per listening session. This is a total of 384 trials,
4. Each of the 96 trials per session would last at least one minute for a total of at least 96 minutes. More realistically, two to two-and-a-half hours would be required per session,
5. The participants would have to comprehend detailed instructions prior to their arrival,
6. The participants would have to complete four forms during each session,
7. The environment would have to be low stress with no time constraints.

While I think an exercise like this would be very revealing, finding the people to make this kind of a listening commitment has turned out to be tough.

So instead, we will have to live with the usual subjective evaluations from Mojo and friends \:\) . I'm hoping to post my comments before Sunday and then others can join in next week.


Did i hear my name somewhere? I love the numbers Mojo. Did you run a power analysis after you were done? Oh, waitaminute...
;\)

Our SVS vs. Axiom test was not quite as blind (we got a bit lazy that late night), but i was still glad we set it up the way we did.
I've been more curious about wanting to hear an EP500 vs. my EP350.

Last edited by chesseroo; 05/13/08 03:09 AM.

"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
chesseroo #208705 05/21/08 03:15 AM
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Well, after a few weeks of direct testing and comparison, I have made a final decision.

I listened to many different movies as well as a lot of music and in the end I found the notes I was taking on the differences between the two subs to be very similar to what Mojo experienced. In my room, I found the 10hz tuning (with two plugs in) to give the flattest response, and by far the best extension below 20hz (which is to be expected given that this is the design of the port plugs)

At extremely high volumes, I found the SVS to be capable of playing slightly louder and deeper. The notes that the SVS hit were in many cases tighter and almost always had less lasting resonance. The lasting resonance from the 600 is what I believe creates the "warm" sound that a few others have described. It is indeed warm and enveloping. Envelopment is the best description I can give for the general experience I've had with the 600.

In some cases, the ability of the SVS to hit harder and without resonance was nice, but in most cases, I found that I preferred the warmer Axiom sound. The few exceptions to this (and in these cases they were dramatic) were on source material that hit extremely low. Examples:

  • the server room scene in the movie "The Pulse." I believe this is ~10-15 hz sound.
  • a select few of the deepest rumbles in U-571's depth charge scene
  • the War of the Worlds pod emerging scene where they fire their lasers into the running crowd.

On these scenes, the SVS was clearly dominant. It hit low and monstrously hard. Both subs had a downside on these scenes, however. The 600 consistently put off a strange rattling (almost a chirping) sound in these scenes. This could only be heard in moments of extreme bass that were not surrounded by other noises. The Pulse scene is a perfect example... it is loud, low bass, with almost no other ambient noise. A very challenging scene.

The SVS's downside in these scenes was that because it does not have a DSP controlling it like the Axiom does, at high volumes it "bottomed out" and the distortion from the driver overextending was obvious even over the extreme volume of the rest of the sound from the movie scenes. Choosing either this or the "chirp" of the Axiom driver is a hard choice... The trick was driving the SVS just to the point of distortion, at which point it produced amazingly good sound.

When not listening to scenes with abnormally low and loud bass, I found the results of the two subs very hard to distinguish and honestly am not sure whether I would be able to tell a difference in a blind test. A possible exception was running the SVS in sealed mode (all plugs in) during which I noticed a bit more "slam" or "punch" that we've been talking about in the past. It was subtle in most cases, and for a few songs, a lot better to my ears.

I also had two other buddies here for the weekend during which we spent 2-3 hours up here doing A/B testing. To their ears, in blind testing, they preferred the Axiom to the SVS in about 8 out of 10 tests. Of the 10 tests, I preferred the Axiom in 4, the SVS in 1, and on the rest could not tell a difference.

I purposely told them nothing about either sub in advance, and interestingly, their comments too focused on the "warm" surrounding sound of the Axiom (or the "brown sub" as they called it) versus the "black sub." They occasionally described the SVS sound as "flabby" compared to the Axiom which I thought was interesting. I believe what they were hearing was the distortion that became evident at higher volumes, but am not entirely sure. Steve (WhatFurrer) mentioned this a few times as well while he was here the week before comparing the two.

So.... in the end, what did I decide? Well, I think it should go without saying that it was not easy, and that these both are truly amazing subs. If I'd never heard both subs side by side, I would gladly have kept either in my home theater and know that I'd have been extremely happy with either in the long run.

In the end though, I decided on the Axiom. The main reason? Surprisingly, in the end, because I didn't notice a huge difference in performance between the two, one of the main decision factors was aesthetics of the Axiom versus the SVS. (I can almost hear the whispers of "heresy" from the crowd when reading that after all this work, the looks of the sub were a deciding factor!) The Axiom is an attractive box that matches the finish of my mains in high gloss cherry and also takes up a lot less floor space. The SVS is a plain (albeit well-constructed) black box that is just plain ugly by comparison and is a lot harder to hide in the room. SVS came and picked up the PB13 today for return shipping, so my sub comparison saga is at an end. It was a fun series of tests to perform, but in the end, I have to say that I'm glad it's over. \:\)


Epic 80-800: HG Cherry
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
myrison #208709 05/21/08 03:30 AM
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Nice comparison, Jason! Thanks for taking the time to report your findings to us. I appreciate the time and effort you put into it.


***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
myrison #208710 05/21/08 03:31 AM
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 Quote:
In the end though, I decided on the Axiom. The main reason? Surprisingly, in the end, because I didn't notice a huge difference in performance between the two, one of the main decision factors was aesthetics of the Axiom versus the SVS.

There's no heresy in that statement.
Frankly of the few subs i've had the chance to A/B over time, many were very similar in LFE production and some to the point where you could only hear mild differences by turning off all other speakers and listening critically. With all speakers on, it only covers even more of the subtle differences.

Aesthetics on the other hand can play a big role in one's enjoyment of the speakers. I may love the sound, but i would NEVER own something that looked like this:



Last edited by chesseroo; 05/21/08 03:32 AM.

"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
chesseroo #208727 05/21/08 04:37 AM
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Yeah chess, but I suppose that the claim is that the sound quality is really "transparent".


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
myrison #208741 05/21/08 09:55 AM
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Nice review/summary Jason, it just goes to show, as with speakers, the subwoofer decision still comes down to personal preferences.

I find it very annoying when Axiom subs get bashed by those on other forums when they have never heard them and/or go strictly by how they have tested, opposed to how they sound. I know alot of people that have heard Axiom subs compared to other quality subs prefer Axiom's warmer/smoother sound.

I hope to have enough time to sit and really play with the PB13 soon. I think I am willing to give up the warmth of the Axiom subs for the harder hit during movies of the SVS sub, that and the fact I need the box, as the vertical nor horizontal verion of the EP600 would work well in my room. I guess the EP500 might have to be ordered up and tried out to see if it fairs better or worse.

In my home I have found the SVS to have a fair bit of latent resonance, especially during the U-571 depth charge scene. I have also noticed the PB13 to have noticeably more power at lower volumes than it's smaller brethren I had here. During the opening battle scene in LOTR, when Sauron's(SP?) finger hits the ground I can now feel it clear across the room at my usual listening levels, my wife smiled at me when she felt it \:\).

I loved the sound the PB13 had when I was recently playing some Amanda Marshall and other newer artists with bass heavy tracks. For some of the older cd's I do find the punch of the PB13 somewhat out of place, as I do not recall the live performances having that punch, but sounding more like the EP600, I still have some time before the PB13 must be back so who knows what I will do, maybe buy an Axiom to go along with the SVS......hmmm......I could be a walking dead man.


Jason
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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
jakewash #208745 05/21/08 11:27 AM
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Nice review, thanks.


Dave
Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
DaveG #208821 05/21/08 06:39 PM
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Excellent report, Jason. You've done a great service for subsequent subwoofer seekers.


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
tomtuttle #208880 05/21/08 09:24 PM
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Thanks Jason for all the time you put into this. I know how much time it takes to set one sub system up correctly, let alone two, then do the tuning and comparisons. A job well done!


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
SRoode #208913 05/22/08 12:04 AM
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Interesting review. I must say that I was expecting the differences between the two subs to be greater given the greater low extension of the PB13.


Fred

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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
fredk #208960 05/22/08 02:50 AM
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So was I Fred. I guess there just isn't much material that hits loudly below 20hz, or at least not in what I listen to/watch regularly.


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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
myrison #208976 05/22/08 08:58 AM
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 Originally Posted By: myrison
So was I Fred. I guess there just isn't much material that hits loudly below 20hz, or at least not in what I listen to/watch regularly.
Which is what I was saying in that other thread about the EP350 vs the competion, the lower extension really isn't noticed sonically but I believe it is noticed via lesser vibrations with the EP350 and EP600. The lower extension is more of a subtle feel than a blow you away sound, IMO.


Jason
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Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra
jakewash #208983 05/22/08 12:20 PM
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Agreed Jason. I noticed that occasionally as well when comparing the SVS and the 600, but it was indeed subtle. An example is on the opening scene of Toy Story 2 when Buzz light year is flying around corners and igniting his jet pack to accelerate. You hear the jet pack on both subs, but with the SVS I was pretty sure I could hear a slightly deeper rumble on some of the blasts. It was so subtle that I asked myself whether I was making it up in my brain knowing that the SVS went lower, but I'd say it's very probable that it was indeed the lower extension.

On "The Pulse" DVD (sub 20 hz sound), however, the difference was noticeable. Even though there wasn't a lot more audible volume with the SVS, I could feel the walls shaking and the room pressurizing decidedly more than the Axiom. This was nice, and was the trade off I feel one gets by choosing the SVS over the Axiom. However, in exchange you lose a bit of the warm envelopment I heard from the Axiom.

That's a long way of saying I agree with you. \:\)


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