Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners I have more bass punch WITHOUT a sub

Continuing the role of devil's advocate, The 3808 manual states that "..speakers set to small, sound below the crossover frequency is cut from the sound output. The cut bass sound is output from the subwoofer or front speakers."

I take that last 'or' to mean if the front speakers are set to small(which makes all speakers hooked up to the receiver small, as long as there is a sub) then all the bass below the crossover is sent to the sub making the LFE+Mains setting redundant when front speakers are set to small, as all the LFE and Bass for all speakers is now sent to the sub because of the small setting.

The LFE+Mains setting allows you to use a crossover point for the mains when they are set to large preventing the doubling of all the bass frequencies.

That is my understanding as well Jason.

David, don't know what "punch", "kick", "slam" etc. is, but the "LFE+Mains" discussion seems a bit tangled-up. You ask is "something wrong" with what you describe and it seems so. The result with M80s small with 60Hz crossover should be the same when sub mode is changed to "LFE+Mains"(in some receivers that combination isn't even possible and "+" only applies when mains are set large). In both cases the M80s are rolled off below 60Hz and the sub is primarily responsible for below 60Hz bass(and any LFE that may be occasionally present in movies).

In contrast, if the M80s were set large, sub LFE+Mains, and still the 60Hz crossover set on the M80s, the M80s would play full-range(despite the 60Hz crossover setting)and the sub would double only the below 60Hz bass, as Jason pointed out in his last reply. The "LFE" setting is the default and is the appropriate one in most cases.

And that is exactly the anomaly that has been identified by Audioholics. In a Denon, when you set the mains to "Large" they get all frequencies, regardless of the xo point and regardless of the "LFE" or "LFE+Mains" setting. This would cause the doubling of bass that you hear.

Now, you could get around it by setting the xo on the sub rather than the AVR, but in doing so, you are basically making them "Small" speakers anyway.

With a Denon, the correct setting is "LFE+Mains", all speakers set small.

Johnk,
I mean inital atack, or initial slam when talking about punch/kick.

According to my Denon-1905 manual:

_ "LFE+Main" is only valid when SUB=YES and FRONT=LARGE.

_ "LFE+Main" directs low freq from front "LARGE" speakers to both
front speaker and sub.

FYI I called denon customer support to ask about the LFE+main setting....

I told the guy on the phone that I had my crossover set to 60 hz and my fronts set to small, with a sub setting of LFE+main. He said he suggested I change my crossover to 80hz because at 60 hz you risk voices being sent to the subwoofer???!?!?!?!?!?

I decided not to try and clarify the LFE+main questions with this guy and just hung up.

Apparently denon customer support reps are idiots...

Maybe there is cancellation issues with certain frequencies between the M80s and the sub?

Jonhan I will have to double check but I am 99% sure that my bass sounded much different when set to small and LFE+main then small and LFE.

If it is only valid when fronts are set to large then why is there an option to do it in the first place, and furthermore why does it sound different?


Anyway, in the 3808 manual under subwoofer mode it says "select low range signal to be reproduced by subwoofer" and you can select [LFE] or [LFE+main]

it says select 'LFE+main" if you want the bass signals to always be produced from the subwoofer.

it also mentions that you can only apply a crossover to a small speaker, unless you have the sub set to LFE+main and then you can apply crossovers to large speakers.

I understand the LFE+main with speakers set to large is essentially like a crossover that does not remove the 'crossed-over' frequencies from the mains- essentially doubling the bass throughout a certain frequency range. Maybe it does not double the bass but it allows it to be played from multiple places- the mains and the sub... kind of like having multiple subs- one of which can not play very low.

I guess I am still unlcear what happens when you use the LFE+main setting when all speakers are set to small, and what the difference is when using this setting for music that is only 2 channel in the first place. I think part of my confusion is what exactly does this setting do to the LFE channel, and what exactly does it do to frequencies below the crossover point on small speakers.

Not sure as why it sounds different but they probably left it available as it shouldn't matter if it is selected if speakers are set to small as you now have an available and active crossover in the settings just as the LFE+Mains will allow for a crossover when main speakers are set to large.


No the LFE+Mains settings now allows for the crossover to be active when the mains are set to large so any frequencies below the crossover is only sent to the sub and not to the mains to prevent the doubling of the bass, at least below the crossover.

it is not really used as the default programming is to send all frequencies below the crossover point from any speaker set to small to the sub.


The LFE+Mains should be allowing a crossover point to work on speakers set to large during 2 channel listening, You are remembering to look in the GUI at the direct/2channel set up menu for all this right? As it is a seperate setting from the rest of the system.

Well for 2 channel there is no LFE channel so the setting essentially just allows for a crossover to be active if the speakers set to large redirecting frequencies below the crossover to the sub as if the speakers were set to small.

If the speakers are set to small the processor automatically allows the crossover to work, the LFE+Mains setting no longer matters, so anything below the crossover point will be sent to the sub.