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Looking for Home Theater advice....
#209083 05/23/08 12:35 AM
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Hey all first time poster but have been a troll for about a year. I'm going to be purchasing a new system for my home theater at the end of August and would like some opinions a little more educated then mine :). First off i'm going to go with a 5.1 system and it will be used about 70% movies/tv, 20% music, and 10% gaming. I'm only renting a house which isn't very big but would like to get a system that will leave me some headroom once I get a bigger place, and besides I like to listen loud anyways. My view/listening area is a rectangular room with living/kitchen combind. I curtained off the kitchen to try and give it it's own feel which measures 17'5 x 11'3 x 8.

To be honest i'm actually considering either an Axiom or Paradigm system, and possibly going with an svs pb13 ultra as the sub choice for both. To run the system it's either going to be a Yamaha rvx-3800, or Onkyo sr875. This will all be connected to my 50" 1080p Panasonic plasma which I bought at christmas.

Sorry for the length and give thanks in advance for your time.

Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
nucl3arboNg #209090 05/23/08 02:08 AM
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Budget? What kind of music are you listening to?


Fred

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Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
nucl3arboNg #209092 05/23/08 02:30 AM
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Nuke, welcome. When you mention a possible bigger future listening room and a loud listening level(protect your hearing!)you imply that you're leaning toward tower speakers, although M22s should be excellent in your present room when supported by the sub that you're considering. Either M60s or M80s should make you very happy and, depending on the room available, you might consider a vertical M22 or a third M60/M80 as the center. Certainly go with the superb QSs for the surrounds, probably the QS8s.

As to the receiver, either of those that you're considering would be fine with either the M60s or M80s. Keep in mind the superior video processing in the Onkyo 875 in deciding.


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
JohnK #209094 05/23/08 02:36 AM
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Nuclear, I just went with a M22/VP100/QS8 setup and I love it, my room is very similar to yours and it has no trouble with my Onkyo 605. Great for games or movies (although it's shown me that most games have subpar sound)


Steve
Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
thefwam #209098 05/23/08 02:59 AM
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Hey Thefwam.. I have exactly the same system coming.. and just bought an Onkyo 606 for it.

Does the center channel sound pretty good?

I'll only have the Panasonic TV speakers to compare it to, so even though I know the vp100 isn't top of the line, I'm hoping with m22's, qs8's, and the ep350 it will still sound quite good, and not be a weak link. (pretty much all movies and games.)


Gene
Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
Karlman #209100 05/23/08 03:11 AM
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No i'm very happy with it! I know that some feel that it is a weak link but it is great. At first I wasn't as impressed, but with the Onkyo you have to turn it up a bit to get enough power in them to sound really good. It makes me excited to get some external amplification on them! But rest assured they will sound great! I am missing the EP350 though. Hopefully that can come in the next few months.


Steve
Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
thefwam #209101 05/23/08 03:11 AM
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p.s. it will kill the panasonic speakers


Steve
Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
thefwam #209119 05/23/08 09:52 AM
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I have the M22's and M80s, have compared the M60s to them both and if price is not a concern go for the M80s, if they are too much then M60s and finally M22s. You could go with either the VP100 or VP150 for a more traditional center, as each sound nearly identical to each other and blend very well with the mains listed. The VP150 does have a slight edge in that it plays a little lower than the VP100.

I have the PB13 Ultra and it will rattle the foundations if you want it to, you could also go for the EP600 for a slightly smoother more encompassing sound, inspite of the reviews to the contrary elsewhere, the Axiom subs are very good and hold their own when directly compared to the competiton.


Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
jakewash #209131 05/23/08 03:09 PM
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nucl3arboNg,

I have a room that is almost the same dimensions as yours. Whichever system you go with try to make sure if at all possible to put your front speakers on the shorter wall. If you don't do this then you will probably not be able to get any space behind you for the qs8's (or whichever surrounds you end up with) to be very convincing. You will probably end up having the couch up against the back wall and the qs8's in the corner of the side wall or on the back wall itself. Turning the system so that the fronts fire into the long dimension (ie they are on the shorter wall) will be much better. Now you can put your couch more in the middle of the room and you can have 4 to 6 feet behind you for the surrounds to have so room to breathe.

Anyways I would suggest you go with the qs8's and vp150. If you have the money for m60's or even m80's then you should probably go with them. But, my room is about the same dimensions as yours and I just have the m22's for fronts and am very happy with them. Keep in mind that if you go with the m80's then you will have to make sure that the amp will be able to drive them during all the big dynamic peaks. From around these boards I hear that Yamaha's have a can hard time driving the m80's as well as the Onkyo's. One poster had a onkyo 805 and it kept shutting down on him with the m80's. The onkyo 875 is essentially the same as the 805 except the 875 has the very good video processor as well. If you go with the m80's I would suggest either the denon 3808 or the the onkyo 875 with some monoblocks (like outlaw m2200 for example). I have the Onkyo 805 and it drives the m22's just fine in my room. If you go with the m22's or m60's the Onkyo 875 should be just fine in your room.

As JohnK suggested the video processing for the onkyo 875 is very good. It is much better than the one even in Yamaha's flagship model and much better than the Denon 3808. I would check out this months home theater magazine as they do a shootout of the video processors for many popular avr's. The shootout was between: denon 3808, denon 5308, onkyo 875, sony 4300, yamaha 3800 and yamaha rx-z11. The Denon 5308 was the best as you would expect at its price. Second place was onkyo 875 or sony. The rest didn't do all that well, including the flagship yamaha.

- Nick

Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
Nick B #209210 05/23/08 08:55 PM
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Nuc,

I went through the same consideration between an Axiom sub and the PB13-Ultra (along with a couple of other guys). There is some great information in this thread.

Happy shopping.

Jason


Epic 80-800: HG Cherry
Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
myrison #209220 05/23/08 09:09 PM
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Couple of other guys? I thought it was just me and you, must be the name;\)


Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
jakewash #209260 05/24/08 02:38 PM
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Well, you and I count for at least four, ;\) and then there's Mojo and Spoiler. Spoiler did the comparison between the PB13 and the EP500, though he hasn't said much on it yet. Maybe if I keep prompting him he will finally post some thoughts. Tune in Spoiler, calling Spoiler... hint hint. \:\)


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Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
myrison #209280 05/24/08 06:33 PM
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Ahh, but Mojo was never really looking to buy the SVS, just wanted to compare, where I was really in the market for a new sub.

C'mon Spoiler post your thoughts or at least PM them to me, I am genuinely interested.


Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
jakewash #209291 05/25/08 02:56 AM
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no pms allowed. You have to share.


Fred

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Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
fredk #209303 05/25/08 05:34 PM
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hey....thanks for all the great reply's I really appreciate it. now i'll try and answer the questions for me as brief as possible as I don't want to keep rambling on. first off about my budget. I think for the speakers alone i'm looking at about $3000-$4000. the paradigm set i've been pricing out (mon 11's, adp390, cc390, pb13 ultra) came to $4312 will all taxes and what not included. with that combo i've been thinking about also dropping down to the mon9's. the axiom sets are a lil less m80 set w/pb13 $4161, and m60 set w/pb13 $3809. now if I dropped down to the ep500 with those it would drop considerably.
For music I mostly listen to rap, hard rock (korn, tool, nin, rage..etc), dance, well a lil of everything. I like to listen loud and appreciate good bass responce. I really would like floor standers as opposed to bookshelf style mainly due to them being fuller sounding, and the more aggresive look to them.
Due to where I live I can't sample listen to the paradigm's (would have to order from a neighboring city), and the cost of sampling the axioms then have to send them back would be very costly. I'm really just looking for the best scenario for my application....something that i'm going to be happy with for at least 5 or so years. Right now i'm using a Panasonic HTIB so i'm pretty sure it's going to be a night/day difference.

Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
nucl3arboNg #209308 05/25/08 07:04 PM
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Well, I currently have a Paradigm setup of Monitor 11v5, Cinema LCR330, and ADP 170s (with an EP350v3 sub). I really like the Monitor 11s and will tell you straight up you would not be disappointed with them.

Having said that I have a Paradigm fanatical friend who wants to buy them off me before I move as I have been ruminating on the merits of 3 tower fronts and upgrading my surrounds anyway. I own M2s (for computer spks) and M3s (for gym) and I have auditioned M22s and M80s. They all sound phenomenal. I have not directly A/B compared them but the impression I get is that the move to M80s (or possibly 'M82s') is mostly a lateral with an incremental increase in SQ (despite the frequent calls that Axioms are only comparable to the higher Studio line). The improvement on center channel and surround is where I'm looking to make it worthwhile. The cost of changing over to an Axiom system [QS8s, an M60 center, and either M80s or M82s (M60||M22) for mains ~$2k from Factory Outlet] is on par with doing an upgrade on my system as is. If I didn't have an easy sale lined up I likely wouldn't consider the change worthwhile (other than the QS8s ).

Last edited by doormat; 05/25/08 07:10 PM. Reason: PS I had a 80/20 split on movies to music on my HTiB. I am now 20/80 with an ever widening taste in musical genres. Real speakers will open your ears.

M80s/VP160/QS8s/EP350; M22s; M3s.
Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
nucl3arboNg #209309 05/25/08 07:15 PM
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Heres my take based on advice I have received from others on this site when I was trying to decide.

The reason I asked what music you listen to is that music is not all recorded optimum levels of quality. A most of the newer stuff and lots of the old stuff can be compressed and/or clipped because of the volumes they are mastered at.

If you had answered that you listen to a lot of classical and/or jazz it would be a no-brainer. Much of this material is well recorded and plays well on the M80s

The stuff you listen to may fall into the compressed category and may not benefit from the detail that the M80 is capable of. Some of it may actually sound worse.

So, my guess would be that you would be very happy with the M60s as fronts as they are more forgiving of less than optimally recorded material.

Your comment about bass and the music you listen to suggests to me that you would like the harder hitting PB13 more than something like the EP500.

If you are within 3 hours of the nearest city with decent audio dealers you owe it to yourself to go and listen to some speakers before making the decision to buy. In the end, only you know what sound you like so others advice is at best a rough guide.

Also, look in the Hearing Things forum and post to see if there is someone close that can give you an audition. Nothing can replace listening to the speakers you want with the material you most like.

Hope this helps. I will now let those more experienced comment/correct where appropriate.


Fred

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Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
fredk #209310 05/25/08 07:21 PM
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ya have to admit most of the music (if not all) is d/l'd from the internet (mp3 burned to disk). the only brands I have locally are energy's, and the closest paradigm dealer (that has instock) is about a 7-8hr drive from me. I can get them 150km's away (audiotronic) but they don't keep them instock.

Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
nucl3arboNg #209312 05/25/08 07:53 PM
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 Quote:
ya have to admit most of the music (if not all) is d/l'd from the internet

I would go with the M60. After you listen to some well recorded music, you may well change your music axquisition strategy. The M60 is a huge step up from HTIB.

Where in BC are you?


Fred

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Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
fredk #209314 05/25/08 09:10 PM
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Prince Rupert

Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
nucl3arboNg #209315 05/25/08 09:12 PM
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If memory serves, thats a fair way up. I've never visited Northern BC. I made it out to Long Beach on the island and spent a few days in Whislter before it was a large tourist town. BC is a beautiful province.


Fred

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Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
fredk #209316 05/25/08 09:22 PM
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yes i'm on a small island just off the mainland.....just a ways down from the bottom of the alaskian panhandle.

Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
nucl3arboNg #209317 05/25/08 09:27 PM
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Very nice! Visiting the Queen Charolets of someplace similar is very high on my list of things to do before I die.


Fred

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Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
fredk #209318 05/25/08 09:30 PM
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i'm pretty much straight across from QCI. the ferry there runs from here and is about 6hrs.

Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
nucl3arboNg #209319 05/25/08 09:57 PM
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Now I'm jealous!


Fred

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Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
fredk #209323 05/26/08 12:15 AM
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Even downloaded MP3's sound pretty good on M80s, as long as they are 128k and up. If you want to play it safe get the M60s, they are a little more forgiving and at lower volume, with MP3s, you won't be missing the extra detail the M80s offer, as the detail is already missing;\).

nuc, if you are ever in Calgary I would be glad to give you an audition of the M80s- PB13 setup.


Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
jakewash #209333 05/26/08 07:11 AM
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Any thoughts on the processing that eg. Yamaha AVR's offer for compressed (lossy) audio?

Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
fredk #209339 05/26/08 12:44 PM
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 Originally Posted By: fredk
Your comment about bass and the music you listen to suggests to me that you would like the harder hitting PB13 more than something like the EP500.


As someone who has A/B tested the PB13 against the EP600, I'm not sure you would actually notice this difference with music (though admittedly I have not compared to the 500). Before I calibrated the two subs, I believed that the PB13 hit harder for music as well, but once calibrated, I could not notice a significant difference in music between the two on any kind of music. The exception was when running the PB13 in sealed mode.

When running sealed, it definitely had a different sound and did "punch" more than when running ported. However, I felt it gave up too much in SPL for home theater in this mode. Since I listen to lot more HT than music, that wasn't a great trade off for me. If you do more music than HT, the sealed PB13 may give you the sound you're looking for.

Jason


Epic 80-800: HG Cherry
Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
anthony11 #209340 05/26/08 12:45 PM
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 Originally Posted By: anthony11
Any thoughts on the processing that eg. Yamaha AVR's offer for compressed (lossy) audio?


The Denons have a "restorer" mode for lossy audio. It helps, but it's still lacking IMHO.


Epic 80-800: HG Cherry
Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
myrison #209344 05/26/08 03:30 PM
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 Originally Posted By: myrison
the PB13 against the EP600, I'm not sure you would actually notice this difference with music (though admittedly I have not compared to the 500). Before I calibrated the two subs, I believed that the PB13 hit harder for music as well, but once calibrated, I could not notice a significant difference in music between the two on any kind of music. The exception was when running the PB13 in sealed mode.

When running sealed, it definitely had a different sound and did "punch" more than when running ported. However, I felt it gave up too much in SPL for home theater in this mode. Since I listen to lot more HT than music, that wasn't a great trade off for me. If you do more music than HT, the sealed PB13 may give you the sound you're looking for.

Jason
And yet to me, I perceived the PB13 to hit harder in all modes. I suspect it is due to the more encompassing/textured sound the EP subs have.


Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: Looking for Home Theater advice....
anthony11 #209352 05/26/08 04:05 PM
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 Originally Posted By: anthony11
Any thoughts on the processing that eg. Yamaha AVR's offer for compressed (lossy) audio?



From what I understand it simply boosts certain freqs in much the same way as 'Rock'/'Jazz'/etc modes do. I actually use the 'Music Enhancer' mode on my Yammy when listening to internet radio (@128) and it does seem to "improve" on the sound. Most of my MP3s are 320 or FLAC so I leave it on 'Straight'.


M80s/VP160/QS8s/EP350; M22s; M3s.
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