Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Tube amps vs solid state with todays technology

Since this board has become my "audio for dummies" school, I'd like to know the following:
Given today's technology, what is the most significant imapct on performance/sound between tube and solid state amps of comparable quality? If there are differences, are they more noticable at different price points or are they a constant? I know the differences were signficant at one time (like 30 years ago), but then it seems to me I would listen to a gillion dollar MacIntosh versus a $1000 Nakamichi or something. I also know there are strongly held views, but is there the same kind of blind testing that Alan and sometimes Sushi and John K have referenced re: other components?

Solid state amps basically reproduce whatever you give them. If your source sucks, the sound will suck. Tube amps, on the other hand, color the sound. Tube enthusiasts find that coloration more enjoyable to the strict reproduction of the source. Audio being a subjective experience, you can't really claim one is better than the other. It's just a matter of preference. My suggestion would be to demo one and see if you share this impression before buying.

Hi Semi_On, My question was really academic, I'm not in the market. Thanks

Dharm, in my view tube amps represent an obsolescent technology and there's no good reason to seriously consider them. The distinguishing factor affecting most tube amps is a much higher output impedance(an ohm or more)compared to solid state amps(less than 0.1 ohms typically). This can result in the output "following" the swings in impedance of the speaker being used and therefore deviating from flat frequency response. For example, where a speaker has one or two large impedance peaks in the bass area, the tube amp would have a slightly elevated response at those points, which could be interpreted as "warmth", although in fact it's an inaccuracy. There's also a difference in the distortion characteristics of single-ended tube amps that make the onset of distortion less objectionable than in push-pull amps, but it's still distortion. Where the impedance or distortion effects don't create significant differences, the sound is identical.

I actually heard the pretty much the same thing from a speaker designer:

"Tube amps can do strange things to speakers, especially the highs. They are very susceptible to impedance variations, especially lower power models."

Hi fellas

Just laughing after reading your posts. I think y'all should put away your Nobel Prizes, get out the Q-Tips, put away your preconceived prejudices and kick back with a nice tube amp system.

Music reproduction is more than amplifier specifications, although to listen to some of you, the world is a very simple place - all solid state amps sound the same and are better than "obsolete" tube amps.

Find a nice Antique Sound Labs integrated, or some Manleys, a fine source and some nice Axioms actually listen to it, and tell me good tube amps are "obsolete," or inaccurate.

There are so many aspects to cover, but here are some of at-random $0.02 from a geeky music lover who used to build DIY tube amps in his youth...

First, like JohnK, I subscribe to the thoughts that, when it comes to the amplifiers, the sonic quality is essentially 100% measurable. I do NOT say the same for the loudspeaker sound, which I still believe has so many complicated aspects that even tomorrow's cutting-edge measurement systems cannot completely cover every attribute of sonic quality. This is especially true if you consider the room/speaker complex as an integrated transducer system. However, when it comes to source players and amplifiers, I do think that essentially ALL audible aspects are already covered by the physical measurement methods available today.

Second, it is true that many if not all tube amps exhibit definitive sonic signatures that are both readily measurable physically and clearly audible in well-controlled blind listening tests. The high output impedance of tube amps mentioned above is one of the major reasons for this. In other words, if you define the "ideal amplifier" as the one that does nothing to the input audio signals but faithfully amplifying them, then very few, if any, tube amps can even come close to today's solid-state amps, including fairly cheap SS amps.

However, as others have already pointed out, some people define the ideal amp very differently, and it is true that signal "aberrations" induced by some tube amps are indeed subjectively pleasing to many people. For example, single-ended triode designs tend to add a lot of even-order harmonic distortions -- basically, distortions consisting of the signals exactly one octave above the input sound (2nd order), two octaves above (4th), two octaves and fifth above (6th), three octaves above (8th), and so on... These distortions are MUCH less harmful musically than odd-order harmonic distortions, and sometimes even positively pleasing to people's ears (in contrast, the 5th, 7th order harmonics and above are "out-of-tune" as you know). I fully understand that these clearly audible sonic characters of tube amps add a lot to the enjoyment of the audiophiledom as a hobby.

Third, in my personal opinion, all commercial tube amps in today's market (except for some DIY "kits") are BADLY, GROSSLY overpriced due to this audiophilic tube frenzy of almost religious magnitude. Tube amps today contain essentially ZERO new technologies as compared with the ones made in the '60s -- except for those "frills" such as digitally controlled bias-regulation circuits etc. The manufacturing costs of some parts (including the vacuum tubes themselves) have understandably gone up a little due to the low quantities of production. Yet, as far as I can tell, no tube amp vendors could possibly justify those stratospheric product prices if not for the demands from the relatively small body of quasi-religious, cost-no-object tube fanatics. Of course, the same argument applies to many other absurdly priced "audio jewelries" -- but IMO, tube amps represent a good example of the "super-high-margin" product categories.

Well, Sushi, I agree with you about the even vs. odd ordered harmonics, but as to the rest, I don't figure I know all there is to know about why one amp sounds better than another. As to prices, yes, there are some super expensive tube amps out there, as there are some super expensive pressed sand amps.

Back in the golden-age of tube amps (early to mid 60's) a really nice house cost $40,000, a loaded Chevy Impala with a big V8 could be had for a bit over $3,000, a Buick for about $4,000 and a Cadillac for $5-6,000. So, basically a bit over 10 cents in 1960 dollars, will buy you about what a 2003 dollar will buy you. So, a top of the line tube amp in 1960 might have gone for as much as $500 back then, a perfect example would probably go for thousands of dollars today, used.

There are some super values in SET tube amps. Check out the Antique Sound Labs line. They sound sweet. They don't cost an arm and a leg. Do some research on the net, and you'll find some other good buys on great sounding tube amps.

Thanks, 2x6, to point me to the Antique Sound Labs, a brand I wasn't aware of -- it is refreshing to see that some of their amps are sold for the street price as low as $250/monoblock new. I definitely cannot say those are "overpriced." However, I also see that their SET designs with reputable power tubes (300B, 211, 845, etc), as well as higher-power push-pulls, are mostly priced at multi-grands. I don't know if I would call them a "Hong Kong Bargain."

My friend finally dragged me to a high end audio boutique in Orange County, we kicked back and listened to a $10,000+ AR tube amp and preamp hooked up to a pair of really expensive Thiel speakers, enjoyed a mug of their high quality coffee and some terrific jazz. All I can say is that we both figured that an Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15DT 5 watt per channel SET (KT88 driven), a modified Ah! Njoe Tjoeb tube output CD Player, a pair of M22 like Michaura M55s modified with Jensen paper/oil caps and Caddock resistors, a Vance Dickason Titanic sub sounded at least as good.

BTW, my ASL tubie cost about $700. I swapped stuff which cost me a bit under $400 but for which they credited me for more than $700 for the ASL. I gave them a giant Yamaha 5 channel amp (so big I would've needed a new house which I picked up from a local penny saver ad for about $250) and a Parasound preamp which I picked up on uBid for a bit over $100. They gave me the ASL and some jazz CDs. We all walked away happy.

ASL also has the WAV8 monoblocks for about $100 each. They've received rave reviews, but require a preamp. A pair of these puts out much more wattage than my MG SI 15DT, but watts aren't everything. The MG is smoooooooth, liquid mids, sparkling crystaline highs, punchy rich bass.

Hey 2x6,

It seems, at the very least, you and I agree with each other that the concept of "You Get What You Pay For" or "More Expensive Equipment = Better Equipment" doesn't apply too often when it comes to audio gears.

Thank you gentlemen. You have clarified exactly what I wanted to understand.

Couldn't agree with you more, Sushi. Any fool can put together a terrific system by throwing enormous sums of money into each component choice. As far as I'm concerned, the art of the hobby is finding inexpensive components which are almost as good as the incredibly expensive stuff.

Axioms fit right into this program! So, by the way does finding great used equipment.

For example, after posting with a visitor on our site here, a week or so ago, I decided to go out and find a big Onk - an Onkyo M504 2 channel amp. Found one for a very, very reasonable price. Tried it out in my big system which used an Anthem PVA 5 channel amp for the front 5, and a vintage Kenwood KA 9100 for the back 2. Well, my Onkyo 797 is having some kind of problem with one of the 2 back surround preamp outputs (I thought it was the Kenwood).

Hooked the Onkyo M504 to the front 2 channels, use the PVA 5 for the rest (single preout from the 797 into the Outlaw ICBM, a splitter out into the Anthem. Anyway, the M60 like Michaura M665s sound much better driven by the M504 than by the PVA5. Lastly, with 2 giant power output meters up front, and gorgeous polished walnut side panels, the big Onk is just drop-dead gorgeous.

So, to get back to it, trust your ears and go easy on your wallet.

In reply to:

---

Just laughing after reading your posts. I think y'all should put away your Nobel Prizes, get out the Q-Tips, put away your preconceived prejudices and kick back with a nice tube amp system.

---

Disprove one thing in my post before you act like a smug, condescending jackass.

Know-it-alls just kinda stimulate the sarcasm thing for me. Remember that Star Trek, life is not an equation episode? Use your ears, let go of your arrogance. You do not know it all even if do you have a plastic pen holder - pocket protector thing...

Just a follow up, why did you take my post as responding to yours? I don't agree that tube amps "color" sound, but they do something sweet to it. As to your advice, try 'em and see which you like, I agree with you 100%

I have both tube and sand amps and although each has unique and wonderful ways with music, I prefer the tube amp, but it's subtle, and sometimes, prefer the sand driven systems, depends on my mood, the music, and for certain, for HT, well, that one is obvious.

Anyway, you don't have to take offense so easily, though it's your choice. As to the name calling, I suppose jack-ass isn't really that bad in the grand scheme of things.

Peace on ya!

2x6, you're picking at symatics, here. Tube amps definitely do "color" the sound. Semi On's choice of the word "color" is the same as your phrase "doing something sweet." Look back at your post and try to tell me you aren't belittling people who are simply stating scientific facts.

We know you are an ardent believer in tube amps, which by golly, do color the sound. (Remember that color = doing something sweet.) Colored sound, by definition, is inaccurate sound. Don't try to tell us, or yourself, otherwise.

If you have a valid argument, perhaps it's that accurate sound may not always be the best or most preferable in all situations. I can definitely agree with that. Bad source material can be made to sound better through a tube amp -- unlike solid state where garbage in = garbage out.

Your passive-aggressive retorts to those with dissimilar, dare I say scientifically-based beliefs, are getting old. We've been here before.

Do you think that even ordered harmonics color the music or make the sound reproduction of good tube amps inaccurate? Have you ever even listened to a decent tube amp system? I'm encouraging folks to keep an open mind.

Pmbuko, if you already have all the answers you don't need an open mind.

So folks, put away the cliches, and just be honest. If you haven't experienced both types of systems, perhaps a bit more modesty and a bit less certainty would be in order.

Well stated Peter.

Let me put it this way...

The amateur/hobby aspect:

Do I flatly dismiss tube amps as antiquated, inferior technology of the past (and hence never consider/recommend them for my friend's living room)? -- No! As I said before, sometimes tube amps make the audio hobby a lot more interesting. Both aurally and visually! Nothing is wrong here.

The professional/production aspect:

Do I want a CD that is recorded and mastered by a superbly tuned suite of tube-based production equipment? -- No, thanks! I want all my CDs produced as neutrally and accurately as possible, and tube gears simply cannot match the SS technology there, period.

Before I continue, I'd like to state that I am very intrigued by tube systems. My only argument with you, 2x6, is that you simply won't admit that tube sound is innaccurate. Remember that this is not necessarily a bad thing. The even-order harmonics that the tubes add are not on the source material, therefore they are innacurate. It's simple logic that has nothing to do with science.

Feed signal A into a SS amp, it outputs A.
Feed signal A into a tube amp, it outputs A + B.

Neither I nor anyone else here is saying that tube amplification butchers the music. We're just trying to tell people why tube amps sound different than solid state.

There are many different audiophile philosophies out there. Many people subscribe to the purity ideal -- in which all components should be as transparent and neutral as possible, passing an unaltered signal from the source material to the speaker. Others are willing to forgo neutrality for a sound that is more pleasing to their ears. (Why would people buy Rockets, otherwise... ) Neither philosophy is more correct than the other. This is an entirely subjective hobby. As has been said again and again, follow your ears.

If I hear a tube amp that I cannot live without, I will definitely buy it (funds allowing, of course). But I'll buy it knowing I'm getting innacurate sound.

I take offense to the fact that every single time we have a thread in which someone posts a scientifically provable statement you make a point of belittling them in an obnoxiously condescending manner, citing your own phenomenal experience and dismissing that of anyone that disagrees with you. Yes, you jerk, I have heard both. I recognize that audio is a subjective hobby and that some find the coloration that tube amps produce as pleasing. More power to them. I also recognize that not everyone prefers that coloration which is why I suggested that it's best if the individual curious in the tech were to listen himself.

If you can't end your smug dismissal of anyone with a differing opinion and certainly of those with scientific fact behind them I'll simply ignore your "contributions".

In reply to:

---

(Why would people buy Rockets, otherwise... )

---

Whoa, you have guts, Peter! (ducking low here...)

Semi on, I think you take offense whenever anyone disagrees with you. You may think you know what you're talking about, but I don't. I have both a tube system and 4 solid state systems. I like them all. I am not blinded by theory, or what I think I know about physics or engineering. I trust my ears. You can trust what you like, but clearly, you do not react well unless someone agrees with you. So, if disagreeing with you makes me a jerk, in your eyes, I don't have a problem with that. I have my opinion, and painful as it may be for you, it is not the same as yours. That's something only one of us has a problem with. Work on it.

BTW, I like the argument above about how nature favors odd ordered harmonics over even ordered harmonics. I mean, that's silly, isn't it?

You noticed that too, did ya ?

In reply to:

---

Semi on, I think you take offense whenever anyone disagrees with you.

---

]

No, you're just a jackass. This is not simply disagreeing. Had you at any point endeavored anything resembly a calm and reasoned contribution with worthwhile content, I would not have reacted as such. Instead you offered nothing resembling a civil debate. You chose this sort of retort:

In reply to:

---

Hi fellas

Just laughing after reading your posts. I think y'all should put away your Nobel Prizes, get out the Q-Tips, put away your preconceived prejudices and kick back with a nice tube amp system.

---

That's not a disagreement. That's an insult and it only proves your total inability to address any given situation with a reasoned and well formulated reply. It also makes you totally worthless in the context of these fora.

In reply to:

---

I have both a tube system and 4 solid state systems.

---

Do you want a cookie?

In reply to:

---

I trust my ears.

---

And had you actually possessed the reading comprehension skills of a 10 year old, you'd have noticed that this was precisely my point. You like the coloration so for you it's a worthwhile product.

In reply to:

---

You can trust what you like, but clearly, you do not react well unless someone agrees with you.

---

Bullshit. You didn't actually disagree with me. You actually stated exactly what I did only you were able to toss off a few insults at anyone that doesn't share your opinion. How do you think a tube amp is able to produce the warmer, more pleasurable sound to you over the ruler flat capabilities of solid state? It changes the music! To you, it's a good change. It may not be for others. That's the beauty of the hobby.

In reply to:

---

, if disagreeing with you makes me a jerk, in your eyes, I don't have a problem with that.

---

Again, your reading comprehension skills are poor. We actually are of the same opinion regarding tube amps. You're just insulting to anyone that doesn't share your appreciation of them which is what makes you a jerk.

In reply to:

---

That's something only one of us has a problem with.

---

And that person is you. You addressed a group of people stating their opinion on whether or not tube amps color the music in a fashion that is appealing to them by telling them all they need to use Q-Tips. That you're incapable of grasping this concept is truly disturbing.

Well, Semi-on, I hear all your yellin', name callin', and cussin', I guess that makes you even more right that you were before.

I just can't help myself, though, I am laughing at you. You may think you know it all, but, to me that's always been a hallmark of a fool. That's about as harsh a word as you'll get from me though. Enjoy your music! Maybe you should take something to calm you down a bit.

In reply to:

---

I just can't help myself, though, I am laughing at you. You may think you know it all, but, to me that's always been a hallmark of a fool.

---

Coming from someone that started the thread by telling everyone with a different opinion that they were wrong with no substantiation and then insulted the lot.

You may find this helpful.

In reply to:

---

Maybe you should take something to calm you down a bit.

---

Tell you what, you act like a rational and intelligent individual for once and I'll be calm and collected.

Can you guys take this kind of thread over to AVS? Or at least handle it through Private Messages? This thread is no longer even romotely on topic, it's become nothing more than a shouting match. The rest of the Axiom community has little interest in hearing/reading this.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE stop. I think I speak for EVERYONE here that the Axiom boards are really enjoyable because this kind of ugliness rarely crops up here. Let's try to keep it that way. Come on...we're just talking about amps here, nothing to get so worked up about.

Perhaps the Axiom boards need a moderator that can close threads like this before they get completely out of hand? If any of the good people from Axiom are listening...I'm available.

well said Craig, I think a moderator is exactly what is needed. Unfortunately it's looking more and more like a full-time job for you.

In addition to a moderator, we need to post a large note on the main page:

"Please don't feed the trolls."

Uh-oh... Hey, dh, now your initial post is considered a TROLL... (j.k.)

Sushi, As you can see in Technical Questions, I've started another incindiary thread re: soldering end fittings on cables. I believe the first response started out "Jane, You ignorant slut..." Some guy named Dan Acksomething

That's TOO funny!

Jane you ignorant slut... hahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha

smart, funny and a love for fine audio, dharmatone, will you marry me?!?

Welcome to AVSHELL ... kidding aside... if there was moderators and such...this wouldn't be the Axiom forum. We should be smart enough to just walk...or just go to the next topic if issues like this pop up.

Anyone start Christmas shopping yet? ... ops wrong forum.

In reply to:

---

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE

---

James Brown?

Why Sid, I'm flattered... do you think our relationship has attained it's zenith here, however. After all your handle is "sidviscious" and mine is "dharmatone"; you're a heartland boy and I'm a coastal girl....and you are probably not a bruins fan....

Sushi the Wave 8's from ASL retail for $119USD each so a pair is roughly $250. They do use Chinese tubes ( not my favorite) and make about 8 watts in a P-P configuration. To all you stuck in the mud solid state fans you owe it to yourself to audition a tube amp with speakers for which they are intended. Speakers and amps have to compliment one another.

Mike

Hi ProAcFan

The M3s and M22s are very good matches for lower power tube amps.

a coastal girl who is a bruins fan? would that be an east coast coastal girl? as you can read from my bio, i'm an east coast guy, but a celtics & pats fan.
dan

Grew up in your neighborhood - Marshfield, and a huge celtics fan, but i've been on the other coast for a very long time. Noticed that Sidvicious profile said he was a hockey fan, so i mentioned the bruins. Can you get me a good deal on a new refrigerator...lol

WOW!!

Now the Axiom board is turning into Match.com!

Got to love this board!

Have you tried Friendster?

sorry Dharmatone, I'm a Habs fan. I guess it can never be!

dharmatone,
Hey how do you think vin's gonna do this yr?? I hope he, Banks and JuJones can help the team. boy, is there a logjam at the 3 this yr eh

man, how about the pats and sox yesterday! we only sell a high end washer, sorry. as for a 'fridge, go with a ge or whirlpool. see if you can get one of the non efficient refers. they have not been perfected yet. too many problems with electrical boards and dc motors.
dan

Back on topic. Using the simplification that a SS amp would produce a clean undistorted output signal then why do you need a THD rating? Wouldn't it theoretically be zero since a SS amp ONLY reproduces the input signal with NO changes? Obviously that's a misstatement. THD levels with SS amps are almost zero but there NOT zero. Thus something is altered in the signal by the amplifier. I'll concede that the THD levels of a tube amp are higher than a SS amp but it's sort of a moot point. The human ear can't really hear any distortion below 1% anyway. For me it's all about the sound quality. My SEP amp sounds much nicer with my speakers than any SS amp I've owned. It's more work to maintain a nice tube amp than to just plug a sand amp into the wall but it's worth it.

Mike

I'll admit that this thread has really piqued my curiosity about tube amps. I've always found them very aesthetically pleasing, but I may just find them sonically pleasing, too.

I'm sure all the tube lovers out there are not completely delusional and go with them for good reason. Next time I hit the audition circuit, I'll include some sand v. glass listening sessions (of course, trying to keep all other components equal).

Hi Pro Ac Fan

Seems to me, the ideal amplifier would completely disappear in your sound system, adding nothing, subtracting nothing and changing nothing except the power of the signal from the source. I don't think True Harmonic Distortion is the only value which bears on this quest. In other words, 2 amps of different design each with a value for THD approaching zero may still sound different. Why?

Maybe because amps are very complicated electronic devices with many components, the totality of their elements and design result in subtly different outputs - not necessarily of a sine wave, or test tone, but in the context of a complex, dynamic piece of music.

I've been testing a few amps to determine what to do with them - a Yamaha M80 beast, a Kenwood KA9100 which I pulled out of my HT system, and an Onkyo M504 which I now use to drive the front towers in the big HT system.

I really like them all, but each has a subtly unique sonic signature. That means, that, at best, only one of them disappears, and more probably than not, none of them achieve that standard of amplifier perfection.

Now, as to the difference between these solid state beauties and a nice Single End Triode tube amp, aside from the obvious difference of having an order or two of magnitude less power output, the tube amp sounds subtly different at similar listening levels. It's hard to describe, but here's my take on it - the mids are sweeter, fuller, more sonorous. The highs are more open, airy and ... well, sweeter. The big Onk, and Yammie beastie, on the other hand, hit much harder, have much more punch - the highs also sparkle, but it just sounds a bit different, not quite as sweet. Even though they have more punch, the mids are not as lush, or smooth, or something.

That's not to say that I don't really like my solid state amps. It's just to say, there're differences among the solid state amps, and then as a group, between these sand amps, on the one hand, and my one SET fire bottle amp, on the other hand.

For kicking back and listening to music, I just prefer the tubie - I find music more relaxing with the tubie. I also love what the big sandies do to music, and enjoy their efforts as well, maybe they're more exciting than the tubie, also pleasant BUT, when Roberta Flack, or Loreena McKennett, or Norma Jones is playing on the tubie, it sounds very much like a live performance, subtly more realistic an illusion of being there than I get from the sandies. Just my take.