Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners M60 vs M80 dilemna

Hello all. I'm new to the board and had a few questions for you. I am currently ugrading my speakers and can't decide which to choose, M60 or M80. My HT room is around 2000 cubic feet from the end of the couch to the wall, but my house has a very open floor plan, the HT room actually flows into various parts of the house, eg. kitchen, dining room, computer room, etc.. It's not enclosed by any means. I don't want to get the M60's and say, "Man I should have gotten the M80's." How much better are the M80's than the M60's?

Another thing is my receiver. I have the Sony STR DA7ES which has:
120 watts x 7 @ 8ohms
100 watts x 7 @ 4ohms

I don't listen to extremely loud music or movies, but I want DETAIL and CLARITY. I'll be listening mostly to music, about 60/40 music to movies. I'm ready to take the audiophile plunge. With the M80's, will I damage my 8ohm speakers with my receiver setting at 4ohms? I'll get an amp eventually but for now, it will just be my receiver. This is what the manual says:

"Alternatively, you may connect speakers with a nominal impedances between 4 and 8 ohms to any or all of the speaker terminals. However, be sure to set the IMPEDANCE SELECTOR to "4ohms" if you connect even one speaker with a nominal impedance between 4 and 8 ohms."
There is no warning about harming the 8ohm speakers, but I wanted to check with some people with more knowledge/experience.

My current set-up:
Fronts: Kenwood JL-series(cant remember the model)20+ years old
Surrounds: Polk audio Rti25's
Center: Polk CSi 180
Sub: KLH 12" (bought from Costco, hey, it sounds geat)

I will be replacing all of this eventually, but will start with the fronts. Thanks in advance for any advice.

Eric

Given the description of your layout and your listening habits, the M60s will definitely be enough speaker for you -- 95% of the time. It's that extra 5% of the time that you need to consider when choosing between the M80s and the M60s. The primary difference between the M60 and the M80 is that the M80s play cleaner and louder and can handle ungodly amounts of power. The times when you feel like saying "To hell with reasonable listening levels! I want to hear my music really loudly in the bathroom on the other end of the house!" you will be glad you have the M80s.

Soon after purchasing the M80s, you'll want to upgrade to a receiver that can handle a 4-Ohm load without having to flip a switch. Such switches limit the power output of the receiver to prevent it from overloading. It's a big compromise just so the manufacturer can claim their product can drive a 4-Ohm load.

Eric, welcome. As to getting the M60s and then wishing that you got the M80s, if that's your philosophy about whenever there's something available that's even slightly better, then yes, that's what will happen in this case. The M60s should serve you well for many years, on the other hand, if the itch doesn't get to you.

As to the 4ohm setting on the receiver, disregard what the manual says and keep it at 8ohms regardless of what the impedance rating of the speakers you use happens to be. The 4ohm setting is simply a type of safety precaution to keep the Underwriters Lab happy because it helps reduce the chance of overheating.It does this by reducing the maximum voltage that the receiver's power supply section can output, and because of Ohm's Law, when the maximum voltage is reduced so is the maximum current and power available. So, although the chance of overheating is reduced, so is the maximum power that would be available otherwise(as much as 50%).

I would say if you plan on getting a new amp or receiver in the near future then get the m80's. If you think it will be some time before you can get a new amp then get the m60's.

I have m80's in a 2100 CF room (that is open to the kitchen and hallway) and they sound great.

I planned on getting the m60's since my room is fairly small and I wasn't planning on spending more than a few hundred on a receiver. However, I went to audition some speakers and the only thing I nearby was the m80's.... and after hearing the m80's I knew I would never be satisified if I purchased the m60's

I ended up buying a denon 3808 which I purchased from 6ave for $1100 (MSRP is $1599).

I am sure that the m60's are great speakers though (never heard them).

I would suggest checking in the "hearing things" forum and see if anyone is nearby that has the m60's or m80's. (or both) Maybe that will help answer your question.

Or possibly, you would have been shocked that you could get almost the same performance for a little less and in certain cases not need to upgrade your receiver

All kidding aside, either speaker should make you really happy but if you are already concerned about upgrading to the 80 then it will just fester and bother you....everyday. As for the extra power the 80 can handle, in all reality unless you have a very large area and tons and tons of power the 60's will serve you just fine.

I debated 60 vs. 80 and was lucky enough to be at Axiom to demo speakers and the creator himself told me to go with 60's with no concerns. I actually prefer the looks of the 60's better so the upgrading bug never really bugged me. I actually traded in my system not to long ago and upgraded to the High Gloss Cherry BUT I got 60's again when I could have moved to the 80's if I wanted to...good luck.

Thanks for everyone's responses. I think I have made my choice and I know I will be happy with it. I'm gonna get BOTH.
You see, I moved into this new home about 4 months ago and it is TWICE the size of my old place (3100sqft), not including the unfinished basement. Of course, I only have ONE ht system right now, and that will just not do.

I'm going to start off with the M60's and the QS8's. I'll take the old stuff to my bedroom so I can have a system there. There will be a dedicated HT room up stairs that I am currently working on. There is only a flat screen tv and a gaming system in now. I'll get the M80's for that room in the next 6 to 8 months. That will give me time to get an amp and another receiver, or maybe just another receiver that can handle the load of the M80's. That's my plan, it will just take my a bit longer but that's ok. I'm glad there are some HT pics here, there are some very nice set-ups that have given me a lot of ideas.

I'll let everyone know how I like the M60's when I get them. Thanks for the help.

Now that's what I call a solution!

good call!

I too hate upgrade-itis, so I got the M80. Somewhere on this board is a nice review by Mojo (et al) regarding the difference between the M80 and M60. If I had read that review before I got the 80's, I would have got the 60's like I wanted and been happy. Given that the review happened after I got my 80's, I can't blame it on lack of research. Am I sending the 80's back for 60's? No Way!!

Scott

Thats interesting Scott. I walked into Axiom thinking the M60 was the perfect speaker for me and, after auditioning both, left wanting nothing less than the M80.

Its such a personal decision.

The QS8's will MAKE your system. You'll find you need to have them included in any "stereo" recording. Just hit 5/7 channel stereo on your receiver. They fill the sound stage without overpowering the primary front speakers while adding a lot of audio information.

Dano, let me suggest that using one of the surround ambience processing modes such as DPLII or Neo:6 with stereo program material generally results in a more realistic effect than does applying all-channel stereo. The all-channel stereo mode simply duplicates the left front sound in the left surrounds and likewise for the right side. This is often suggested for a party, etc. to make the sound levels more consistent throughout the room, but doesn't attempt to get a totally natural effect.

Using DPLII, etc. on the other hand extracts from the front channels only the reflected ambience mixed into them that came from directions other than the front, but had to be put there because there was no other channel to put it in. This is then directed to the surrounds to duplicate the live listening experience a little more closely.

That option wasn't as high on my list as I wish it had been. I suppose I could have ordered both and kept the winner...

Scott

Does anyone know anything about the Axiom factory store? I can get the M60's for about $98 less but they may have a "blenish" that kept them from selling full price. This sounds like a great deal but I would hate to get a set a speakers with a huge gash along the side or chips out of the finish. I guess I could call and see what constitutes a "blemish" I was wondering if anyone has bought from the factory store. Thanks again for your time...

Hey kungfu, the factory seconds are a great deal!. I spoke with Amy about it once and I was told that the standard they use is a '5 foot test' meaning the blemish should not be visible from a distance of 5 foot. I have VaSSallo series M60s which are factory seconds and if you were to look at them, you cant tell unless I told you that they are seconds. As far as the sound quality goes, there is absolutely no odifference between 1sts and 2nds.

Second that. I got my whole setup (subwoofer pending) through the factory outlet. I went over them with a fine tooth comb when I first pulled them out and couldn't find a single problem with any of them.

After that, of course, I had to deal with all those comb marks I put on the speakers...

The only thing I dont like about the 2nds is the wait. I wish they made as many 2nds as the do firsts, but that wont be a good business model, would it?

I have M60's with Denon AVR4308 130 watts per Channel, 2400 cubic feet open into kitchen. Another opening into dining room and 3 openings into stairways. They play louder than I can bare with no distortion, I still fight the urge to get some 80's although I doubt it would be worth the price, these speakers 60's are extremely pleasing to my ear. I also have a 2 channel setup in the sunroom with Sansui 9090 and Pioneer HPM-100's, 33 years old and still kickin. I often go back and foth between rooms. Subtle difference, can't decide wich I like best, I think that's how it would be with 80's v 60's.

Well, I am officially a future owner of a pair of M60's. I went to the factory outlet so I'll have to wait 3 weeks but I saved a little money ($98). I'll probably go ahead and get the QS8's from the outlet also, (that is a good deal). I know they may have "blemishes" but I think I'll be able to live with them.

I'll have those M80's in no time...

Excellent! Welcome to the family.
You'll see, the wait is not painful at all... it is just excruciating...

Welcome to the club!

I have been agonizing over this very decision for weeks now. I have the luxury (and torture) of a house under construction so I have time to wait. The torture of it is that I am trying to time it so that I don't have to stare at unopened speaker boxes while waiting on construction to finish.
At least I have made a decision on what to get (Epic60/500-7.1).
I also have to please the wife though and she told me that I could get the entire set-up but only if she picked the finish. Fair enough.

That's a pretty fair trade. My deal was that I had to finish the entertainment center before I bought the mains.

From what I've read here and elsewhere, any blems on items from the outlet tend to be pretty minor. I think some units sold there are customer returns that have tested out okay. Since I've never read of someone waiting longer than the estimated time for outlet units, it seems that unlike AV123, Axiom actually wants to deliver product rather than deliberately limiting availability DeBeers-style, and it seems likely that at least some of the time they complete outlet orders with firsts if they don't get enough seconds/blems in time. A 1-3 week wait for 10% off is a pretty good tradeoff, I think, especially given that lead times from other manufacturers/retailers can be longer even for firsts.

I think some units sold there are customer returns that have tested out okay.
[/quote]
Actually, returns are never sold as new. All the "seconds" are brand new, and many of us that have purchased them have never been able to find any marks on them at all....

That's right, the returns get sold to family and friends. I would guess there isn't to many returns. Now that Axiom has a trade in policy I do believe they get put on ebay as such.

That's good, there aren't really any bad fnishes. Hopefully she'll choose one that suits you (or matches the furniture)
That's all my wife wants

Thanks! I'm trying to wait and order the QS8's but I don't know if I can hold out...

The QS8's are calling you......

I'm back to waffling on M60 vs M80 myself, having read some claims that the M80's actually need to be played loud to sound good. Le Sigh.

Not true!

The M80s sound good at low volumes (and actually handle them pretty well). They just sound better at higher volumes.

The M80s are superb at low volumes just as at very high level. It is one of their most impressive characteristics.

Is that specific to the M60, or do you simply Love It Loud?

Rephrased: any thoughts that M60's would sound better than M80's in the same room at a low to moderate volume? Given my wife, imminent offspring, and the @#$@#$@#$~!! party wall I don't anticipate shaking the walls very often.

Oh, they just sound better at higher volumes, simply because it's easier for the human ear to hear all the frequencies when they're not all turned down.

I don't have M60s in my house (never have), but the M80s are a significant improvement over M50s at all volumes. I hear what you're saying about low to moderate volume--that's pretty much where the M80s live, unless my wife is out of the house or she's watching NCIS.

Well, I wimped. Sorta.
I pulled the trigger and placed my order today, but decided to leave two QS8's for a later date. VP150, M60's, QS8's and EP500.
This was as much a function of furniture as it was money. My wife finally picked the finish but HAD to have custom wood (walnut, caramel finish) so I was the gentleman and compromised.
Now, the wait.

Curiously, mine doesn't care about the finish at all -- the standard cherry vinyl is fine with her, but I must admit that I like the HGC a *lot* better, based on the samples from Axiom.

Aw, gee, darn, not having to buy the real wood...

Congrats!

Ok, has it been 3 weeks yet? I guess I could look back a few posts on when I ordered but that would depress me. I didn't think the wait would be this bad........

Mind you that doesn't equate into permission to actually place an order .... and now I find myself wondering if I should wait for the Denon 3809/3810 to appear.

It was only July 11

Thanks, now my day has just gotten longer... Maybe I could go ahead and order the QS8's? That would make me feel better, right?

QS8......QS8......QS8.....I am sure you would feel much better....once they arrive.

Congratulations!!!

That was not a solution that I was expecting!!!

Good Luck on you setup!

Reminds me of this:

I had to do it. I went ahead and ordered the QS8's. I could not help myself, I have a problem, is there rehab for this?

No rehab, just a lessening of the symptoms. Upgradeitis continues to grow deep inside you till one day it explodes on the scene again coinciding with the latest toy you desire.

Yes. The first step is admit that you are powerless over audio. You should then jump right to the 8th step and send them along to me so they can't hurt you any more

Congrats on your QS8 purchase, still no known cure for upgradeitits.

My M60 order has shipped Since I ordered the QS8's just yesterday I was hoping they would ship with the 60's. Soon though..... Soon....

At least you will have something to play with while you wait for the QS8s.

Yeah, it's the sad posts where people have all the speakers and no receiver, or one of the mains, but not the other, or just the surrounds...

I got my tracking info and the weight is about 70lbs. So I guess I will get the speakers in two shipments. How many days apart will they be?

They should show up at the same, Axiom quite often only puts one speaker weight on the info.

FINALLY! I have my speakers That was tough. My QS8's actually arrived at the same time. I haven't had time to really get into them yet, but they are all set up. I have to admit that initially I was hesitant on getting "vinyl" speakers but I have to say that these things are rock solid. I would love to have these in piano black though I'll get back to a little review of these puppies later. Initially though, the QS8's have phenomenal sound! I need to set up my fronts a little better though before I talk about the M60's. I have some tweaking to do..........

Except when there is specific LFE, I can't tell that my QS8s are on. So, how do you tell if the sound phenomenal if you can't tell that they are playing??

I know I can get more out of my QS8s based on my listening at Axiom, but I always wonder how you evaluate a speaker that is supposed to blend in and exert subtle changes on the sound field.

LFE and you hear your QS8s? You're doing something wrong, Fred...

That was my first thought as well, I am guessing he just means special effects in the surround channels

Um, what Jason wrote. Though, I'm probably doing many things wrong...

[quote=fredk]

I haven't watched a movie with them yet, but with music, there are all kinds of sounds coming out of those things. Trust me, I can tell they are playing. Nothing subtle about them. Now with movies, I'm expecting to not even tell they are there.

I have noticed that the sound comming from my QS8's varies GREATLY with movies and games.

Some movies/games I maybe only hear them once or twice during the whole movie. Sometimes there is a near constant flow of surround effects comming from them the whole time.

I guess some Dolby tracks on games and movies just doesn't send much info to the surrounds... maybe just laziness on the part of the game devs or movie sound guys.

Same goes for my sub.

I'm not saying that there is nothing coming from my QS8s, its that most of the time the sound is not distinctly audible. It is only occasionally that they seem to get major duty (like the scene in the latest Bond movie where he goes from the casino to the street and all of a sudden you get that sound behind and around you effect.

Even then, it is the effect on the overall sound field, not specifically the QS8s that is impressive (though I guess by implication it is the QS8s that are impressive).

You could always bump up the Q's a few db from your receiver.

I could, but I always though the purpose of surrounds was to blend in and add ambiance/dimensionallity to the sound field, not stand out.

Sometime I increase mine a little... not to the point where they seem too loud or out of place, but just enough to make them a little more enveloping.

I always end up setting them back to the 75 db calibrated settign though, because that is the ideal volume for much of the material I watch/play. However, If I feel like the surround levels are low or lacking on a movie I don't hesitate to take them from +1 db to +4 db on my receiver.

Again, I do the same with my sub.

I never turn the sub or surround below the calibrated level though...

I guess the center button on the 3808 remote just makes it so easy to adjust channel levels o the fly.

OK, that makes sense. I'm not sure if I can adjust channel levels with my remote.

That's right, Fred; unless a sound was specifically intended to be located in the surround speaker, as occasionally is the case in movies or in a multi-channel music disc that has a performer located there, the surround sound should be relatively subtle general ambience that doesn't draw attention to itself. For example, in classical music there are very few compositions(e.g., the Berlioz Requiem)that have performers at the side or back of the listeners, but the reflected sounds that make up more than half of the sound for a listener at a typical distance come from directions other than the front. Using DPLII, etc. to extract this sound from the front channels in stereo material and send it to the surrounds makes the listening experience a little more realistic, but isn't intended to be all that apparent, and isn't, until it's suddenly switched back to straight stereo and the sound field collapses toward the front.

Thanks John. That is exactly what I experienced when I auditione speakers at Axiom. It was easy to test with a receiver that flipped back and forth between stereo and multi channel easily.

I think there is a temptation to set the surrounds a little hot because you want to hear something from those speakers you just paid so much for. I know thats what I did before I picked up the ratshack meter.

I admit to bumping my surrounds by 1.5 db over the calibrated match. I like to be surprised by whizzing bullets and off camber dark barks, etc. However, they still seem to blend really well. Surround effects still come from various places along the wall and behind. Sometimes there is even the illusion of sound on the ceiling, (Master and Commander.)

The creeking boards above your head are really cool on Master and Commander!

<-- looks at avatar. You sure it was in the movie?

I gotta rent that movie again. It seems to be a reference sound track.

Before I got the QS's, I had my surrounds bumped up pretty high. That's why they sounded to big when I played them for the first time. I have them adjusted now with a few different custom settings for music and movies. With music, I have them set a bit higher than with the movies. I watched the DTS-ES version of Gladiator. I had this big dumb grin on my face thrughout the movie. Apparently, I need to watch Master and Commander again and get some real audio love.