Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Amplification question

Hi, I am planning to go with the M80/7.1 system with an EP600 sub for a 7400 cu sq foot room and am trying to decide about amplification between the following options.

1) Yamaha rxv3900

2) Yamaha rxv3900 with an Emotiva XPA-3 for the front and center channels

3) Yamaha RXV663 with Emotiva MPS-2.

Benefits of option 1) rxv3900 would be it includes Rhapsody, which I love listening to on my computer, however, I have never been able to listen to compressed music channels on Directv, they sound horrible, so I'm not sure it actually be a useful feature or not. This option would also be the cheapest and there is a thread on Amazon in which an rxv3800 owner reports good stable sound running the m80/7.1 ep 500 configuration. The main question is whether 140 watts X 7 (980 total) would be sufficient given room size and not having to crank the amp in order to get clean sound.

Benefits of option 2 would be to supplement the amplification for the M80s and center and still have the Rhapsody included in the rxv3900. Not sure if this would be a pain to balance volume levels between the 2 amps though, is there some sort of master/slave setting that can be implemented with this type of arrangement so when you turn up the rxv3900 the volume automatically goes up in tandem on the XPA-3?

Benefits of option 3 would be sound closer to true audiophile, costs about the same as option 2 but would cost more overall if I run audiophile cables, which I definitely would, between the receiver and the amp. Downside might be that the rxv663 only has 2 hdmi inputs, 1 output.

Actually option 4 would be to look at the Sherwood receivers or amp on this site, haven't heard anything about them.

I guess the main question is whether I need more power than the rxv3900 to comfortably power the speakers in my living room of 7400 cu ft.

Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
SK

Sat, welcome. I wouldn't be able to analyze your option three since I have no idea what you mean by sound that's "true audiophile" or what "audiophile cables" are. As to the other two options, I'd suggest that you definitely try option one first with the 3900. Whether a particular amplifier would be adequate for your use would depend on the average listening level that you use and the dynamic range of the material that you play. The 3900 is a quite powerful amplifier and it's entirely possible that it would be plenty for you. In any case, there's no good reason to assume that it wouldn't be until you give it a full trial. You'd always retain the option to add a separate amplifier later.

1) Do not buy "audiophile" cables. Go to http://www.monoprice.com.
2) You have a big room. I would suggest changing the EP600 to 2 EP500s (Using the advice from recommendation 1 will pay for the difference)
3) I agree with John on the amp selection.

I would take a look at the Sherwood Newcastle unit. You could also look at the Denon 3808, it is a proven performer from members here on the forum.

I second Steve's suggestion of dual EP500's. It will even out the bass through out the room better and allow for a few more SPL.

I also second JohnK's thought of trying out the 3900 and then go from there.

As wid mentioned the 3808 from Denon is proven performer(I have one with M80s) and you might be able to get one quite cheap, as the 3809's are on their way. 6ave.com was selling the 3808 for ~$1100 IF you called them and asked for the special pricing. I have heard rumors of the 3808 for as low as $800 from various sources.

Thanks for the feedback everyone, getting the 3900 and then adding additional amplification from there if necessary was my first thought, and it's good to hear that the available onboard power will probably be sufficient.

I must admit I'm still on the fence though, especially reading about the planned outlaw 997 processor with onboard Trinnov Optimizer, I'm still tempted to get something like the rxv663 which has the lossless audio formats and sells right now for $399 from an amazon reseller and then upgrade to something better next year, in other words go the separates route with a separate power amplifier.

Also I was thinking about starting with one ep600 and then adding another sub later, why don't you all recommend 2 ep600s, or one ep500 and one ep600? The reviews seem to suggest that the ep600 goes down farther in Hz and has more impact, which seems like fun, this setup will be mostly for movies/home theatre so that seems to fit. I am hopefully going to audition the m80/600 7.1 system this Wednesday, perhaps I should attempt to hear the ep500 too? The ep600 looks a little goofy to me and I worry that my wife may not love the look but sound rules, if you know what I mean, the whole deep reference bass thing could be sweet.

Simply due to costs. If you want to spend more money to go a little bit lower in the bass range by all means go for it.

Simply... Cost. Two EP600's cost alot. However...

They're so choice. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one (or 2) up.

Because one 600 will lift your house off of its foundation, 2 will lift your neighbors off.

Randy I think you missed the true point, let me help...Because one 600 will lift your house off of its foundation, 2 will lift piss your neighbors off.

I know what you are saying, the other night I was watching Transformers. My 600 and Twin 350v3's were rocking the house. The next day, my neighbor that lives about 400ft away commented on the thundering noises he was noticing.

Crap. That doesn't bode well for when I go multiple-sub. Not that that changes my plan.

I intend to replace my RW Olivers with Axioms when the new Outlaw pre/pro arrives. powered by the $10,000.00 Lexicon ZX-7 amplifier with an Outlaw faceplate...at a $6500.00 saving.

Oh, and don't listen to the Monoprice guy, Bluejeanscable.com is where you should shop

You know what they say... with great power goes great responsibility.

Sat -

I'm looking forward to the audition Wednesday and hope it works out with your schedule. Here is my advice ahead of the listening session.

First, info on my setup:

My room is considerably smaller than yours. It's roughly ~2400 cubic feet and my main listening position is ~10 ft from the front speakers. The Denon 3808 powers a 7.1 Epic 80/600 setup and I also have a second Earthquake SuperNova sub to even response in the room (an older sub that I kept when I upgraded to Axiom).

Even though the Earthquake doesn't get nearly as deep as the 600, it does contribute greatly to flattening response in different listening positions, so any of the options above should work in your room too (2x600, 1x600 + 1x500, etc.). Incidentally, I've heard the 500 as well and was very impressed with it, but it doesn't get as deep or as loud as the 600 can.

When you're here I can show you some of the work I did on flattening response in my room when I had one versus two subs. In a room your size though, I'd strongly agree with the suggestions to look at 2 subs (either now or as an eventual upgrade). If money isn't the main driving factor for you, I'd say go as big as you can (i.e. 2x600). Having said that though, I believe you'd be happy initially with 1x600 plus another 500 or 600.

Also, there's no reason you can't start with one sub now. Even with one sub you should be able to get very good bass in your primary listening position (assuming you have some flexibility on placement options for the 600), but the rest of your movie-watching friends may not get quite the rumble you do with only one sub running.

Back to your other questions on amplification...

Even though my room is quite a bit smaller than yours, definitely wait until you've listened to my setup before you spend too much time stressing on power options. I am constantly amazed with how much volume the 3808 can drive out of the M80s. Even in a long room, given how efficiently the M80s run, I believe you'd have to be someone who regularly listens at fairly extreme volumes to completely take advantage of the power of separates.

While you're considering whether you need separate amplification, consider the amp power calculator here. As an example, let's say in your large room you sit ~20' from your speakers and want to be able to listen at average volumes of 90 dB and allow for peaks of 10 dB (which sounds twice as loud as 90 dB). This requires less power than you might expect... ~114 watts per channel, which the 3808 is capable of. Also keep in mind that after ~2 hours listening at 90 dB, you risk permanent hearing loss, and after only 15 minutes at 100 dB (both of these are approximates as not everyone agrees on exact exposure limits). Either way, however, 90 dB with 10 dB peaks would be listening fairly loudly.

With all that said, you may like to listen much louder and can use the calculator to give yourself an idea of what you'll need. Variables like the location of your main listening position can change the required output significantly, so it's a good way to give yourself an idea. Regardless what the calculator says, try it first without separates and see if you can make your ears bleed without more power. I suspect you might be surprised. As far as choosing one receiver over the others, I'd make the choice entirely on features and connectivity and avoid making power a determining factor. If you'd get a lot of use out of the Rhapsody streaming service, I'd say that's a big plus versus the others that do not allow this.

If I was in your shoes and was choosing where to put my money first, I would start without extra amplification and put the money saved into a second subwoofer. I believe you'd hear the difference of that upgrade much more clearly and much more regularly than you would if investing in separate amplification, which would help, but mainly when pushing the system extremely hard.

To your question on cables, you can also save a boatload by bypassing the marketing hype on "high quality cables." Most of us here have been watching various research studies comparing high-cost and low-cost cables and have continuously seen that Monster speaker cables never produce results that are audibly discernible from any other cable. (while a machine might be able to measure differences in the signal, human ears cannot)

My whole system is wired up with cable from either Monoprice.com or BlueJeansCable.com (so I can agree with both of the previous posts highlighting the quality of either). I'm happy to talk with you at greater length about this when you're here... Lots of first-hand stories that make for interesting data points.

In the meantime definitely let us know if you have more questions.

Jason

You can't have too much amplification or sound decoders... this is what I've learned so far. The wide array of formats really requires a receiver that can decode just about anything if you want to play back the movie the way it was originally setup. This is why I went with the Pionner Elite 94TXH.

Your room is huge, you better get 2 EP500's if you want to blow the doors off... and save up for 7, 1000watt amps. And no I'm not kidding. Including the attached bar area, my room is about 6,000 cu ft. and its loud... but it could be better.

Here is an interesting aside. If your HT is in the basement, don't expect the floors to shake unless you've installed a subfloor. They are, after all, 6" thick concrete. I had my system cranked up and was impressed...then I went upstairs and was blown away by how much the house was rockin'

7 1,000 watt amps? Don't think so.... My room is 8,000 cu ft and the Denon by itself did ok, the Odyssey Mono's for my 80's where a nice addition.

Remember that a 1000 Watt amp can only play 3dB louder than a 500 Watt amp, all else being equal.

That explains why they had racks of what looked like 3000w amps at the blues festival I went to. That was for the small tent venue.

Jason's suggestion to look at the power calculator is an excellent one. It really helped to calm me down when it came to power requirements. 200wpc would be a waste in my small room.

Using the calculator I can play music at 90db (loud for me)for listening position of 7.5-8 feet and only need 62W and that gives me 20db of headroom. I doubt my amp clips, even with very dynamic material.

Now, if I wanted to listen to classical music at reference levels of 100db (peak??) I might come up a tad short at times.

Still, a couple of 3000w rackmount jobs would look cool...

There is a certain cool factor having seperates.

Jake I just went to 6ave.com. They have the denon3808 for full msrp only. Have you been able to find it there new for 1100?

You have to call them, tell them you heard about the deal on a particular website; I believe it's AVS, but I'm sure someone will clarify.

Listener follow Ken's advice, you have to CALL them and mention the AVS special pricing, although I am sure you could just say you heard about a special price form one of the forums you have been to and they would just tell you which one it is.

thanks. I will try that.