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#228576 - 11/05/08 02:51 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: jakewash]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4077
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Is there any word on when you will get a stock M22 for testing?
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#228578 - 11/05/08 02:57 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: BlueJays1]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I am hopefull the comparison can take place this weekend, if not, I am sure it will happen by the end of this month at the latest. Just having a hard time getting schedules to mesh.
_________________________
Jason
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My HT

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#228579 - 11/05/08 03:02 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: jakewash]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4077
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
I think jakewash deserves a big group hug :D. I know I would not be able nor willing to invest all this time on this matter. I just want to point out THANKS!


Edited by Dr.House (11/05/08 03:05 PM)
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#228581 - 11/05/08 03:19 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: Murph]
woofersus Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 32
Loc: Mount Vernon, OH
 Originally Posted By: Murph
While I agree that proper testing procedures are required for definitive proof of audible differences when dealing with the same class of speakers, there are situations where there is such an Extreme difference in quality as to safely make an immediate judgment of preference.

For instance, put a small cube speaker from a cheap HTiB setup up against an M80 grade floor stander??? An extreme example to be sure. True, in this case we are dealing with a modification to just one component without changing anything else like the driver, cabinet, etc. Here there is indeed argument for controlled testing.

However, just to be the devil's advocate..... What if Jake adds in these new crossovers and they change the sound in such a large degree that it is simply unmistakable. Unlikely but perhaps the new crossovers are tuned sooo way off for this particular speaker configuration that it turns them into the tinny sounding equivalent of a tiny cube speaker. Or, to be fair to Ninja, maybe it goes the other way around. Although an improvement to that scale is even more unlikely due to the laws of diminishing returns on a speaker of this caliber.

So no disagreement on the necessity of controlled testing for most situations but lets not say his experiment has no value just yet. I for one, look forward to his comments as he is the only one investing the time and money to do at least this much.


These are essentially my thoughts as well. I haven't heard this particular product, so I can't comment on what I expect the outcome to be, but to say there has to be a strict scientific method to even decide whether or not there is a difference probably over complicates the issue in the particular case.

If we're talking about the difference between the original components and premium level components, I can understand that need, as there is debate as to whether it makes any difference at all already, and the "voice" of the speaker is likely to be similar even if there is improvement. Same goes with comparing speaker wire or IC's or power cords or whatever. In this case, it's important to remember this is a bigger change than that. The topology of the network is actually altered here, with different crossover point altogether.

Like I said much earlier in this thread, I haven't heard an example of one of the designs that only changes out components, but I have heard the Onix Reference 1's both before and after, and the difference isn't subtle. (also a design that is all new vs. just upgraded parts) It was a gtg with 90 people in attendance and I didn't hear a single person claim they thought there was no difference. A few preferred the original, most preferred the upgrade, but nobody questioned that they were different. (and no, most weren't audio snobs that think $500 cables are better than $400)

I suppose you could give an extreme example where his room and front end were so awful he couldn't tell the difference between his m22's and a bose lifestyle system, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. It stands to reason that we can get a general idea from his observations.

Naturally opinions should be taken as such, and it's absolutely not scientific, but that doesn't make it un-useful. It certainly isn't a 100% decision as to which is better, but most of us are just curious to hear what he thinks of it. For that matter isn't that how most of us decided to buy our first Internet Direct speakers?
_________________________
Tim Evans
East Street Audio

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#228584 - 11/05/08 03:36 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: woofersus]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4077
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
These are a few important things I would like to point out.

1) Level matching the speakers is a must.
2) Use 2 channel Direct Mode so there is no equilazation being used from the receiver.
3) Blind Testing
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#228588 - 11/05/08 03:49 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: BlueJays1]
EFalardeau Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 3270
Loc: Laval, Quebec, Canada
You might also want to test some multichannel stuff as crossover networks can affect phase quite a lot and sound fine in stereo, but strange as you add other channels. If you have Avia (or another DVD like that) that provides tests with moving objects, it might be interesting to see if there is a difference (better or worse) between the 2 networks.
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E = MC2 = ((2M80 + VP180 + 4QS8)/(EP800 + EP500))^(ADA1500 x D2v)
Audiobytes! 2M22! 2VP150!

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#228589 - 11/05/08 03:49 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: BlueJays1]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Just to let you guys know, Mojo has agreed to partake in this comparison, although I doubt he will post his impressions.

Absolutely, the speaker levels will be matched, from my initial testing it isn't hard to match as they have the same output with pink noise from the avr.

I am using pure direct mode at the momment.

As we are simply looking for differences between the speakers, is blind listening really necessary? We are not looking for a "I prefer this to that" conclusion, we are simply looking for the 'new' sound the Ninja XO's bring.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#228591 - 11/05/08 03:54 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: jakewash]
woofersus Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 32
Loc: Mount Vernon, OH
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
Absolutely, the speaker levels will be matched, from my initial testing it isn't hard to match as they have the same output with pink noise from the avr.


I guess that answers the question of sensitivity. I was just going to ask if the numbers were posted on that.
_________________________
Tim Evans
East Street Audio

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#228592 - 11/05/08 03:58 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: woofersus]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
IIRC, Sean said the sensitivty was virtually unchanged as is the power handling.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#228593 - 11/05/08 04:00 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: Ajax]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4801
Loc: western canada
 Originally Posted By: Ajax

If Jake present his opinions as objective science your point is valid. However, Jake has the right to his subjective opinion and the right to express that opinion and I, for one, am looking forward to hearing his opinion. It is left to each of us to decide for ourselves how much or how little that opinion means.

We are not talking about suppression of the expression of free speech or anything here. Hold onto the soap box speeches for the next election.

Jack, you know full well that in the world of audio a subjective expression of opinion becomes a second person's Bible of authority on what is unequivocally true even though it could not be further from the truth.
For example, aren't all Axiom speakers bright? Because I read that on a forum and this information was posted from a well renowned audiophile who posts there a lot.

What I am saying time and time again is "oh really"?
And I will never stop asking that question so that the "second" person who comes along may think a bit harder or more in depth rather than blindly believing the first subjectively expressed opinion they read on a subject.

the bottom line
help debunk the myths

unless of course this takes away too much of the illusion of audio magic and in such case I have to apologize for destroying anyone's dreams of audio nirvana with 150k Wilson Audio speakers and 50k Cardas interconnects
;\)
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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