Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Do I even need a CD player?..and "bad first exp."

I'm starting to gather a list of what I need in this home theatre system and it occured to me that I've yet to consider a CD player. Will this be necessary? I wouldn't need anything too fancy. I would imagine i could pick up a nice 5 disk cd player for a couple hundred bucks right? Are they as intense to research as the other pieces? Or do I even need one and can just go through the DVD player?

Just wondering what others are doing. My goal with this system is to have a good video/audio system to contribute to making my basement/romper room a kick ass place to hang out.

On a side note I went to the only listed Yamaha dealer here in GR, Michigan and the guy hadn't heard of the 2400, and knew nothing...great. Glad to see my research is off to a great success. The other "nice" A/V place I went to to look around I couldn't find anyone to hook up the nicer of their two projectors and the one they had on looked like garbage. All the salespeople were too busy hawking crap onto unsuspecting consumers. I thought those folks all worked at the major stores? A disappointing beginning.

-Nick

If you're looking to save some money, and who isn't, I'd suggest looking into a CD/DVD changer. In addition to taking up less space, you'll also have fewer cables to worry about. There is a huge range of players available, and even some that include DVD-A and SACD playback capability, although they will cost you a bit more.

I'll leave it to others to recommend players, as I haven't researched them lately.

That would be alright, I was just afraid if I got into some sort of Combo changer that I might sacrifice DVD playback quality. Sort of like the theory on TV/VCR combo's. The more you pile in there the more problems and less quality you get.

But if it's possible that certainly makes sense from a logistics standpoint.

Got a catalog from onecall.com the other day, and they had a 400 disk Sony DVD-A/SACD changer fro $400. If only I didn't want to get Axioms first...

Hi Nick,

As my stereo experience has grown from CD listening, I believe the CD source is very important. My first hi-fi equipment was a $70 Panasonic portable CD player, coupled with a Headroom Little amp ($250) and Grado SR60 headphones ($70). I thought this was excellent.. I couldn't imagine why I would need to spend more money.

A few year later I finally broke down and bought a speaker system. Paradigm Mini Monitors, Yamaha CDC-775 CD changer, HK 3470 stereo receiver. The step from the portable CD player to the Yamaha was amazing, especially after years of listening to my headphones. Even though my Grados are better than my Paradigm speakers, the CD source clearly added something special.

I should note that I decided on the Yamaha by auditioning. I brought several of my own CDs, in various genres, to the local Yamaha dealer, along with my headphones, and sat down and listened. Some people may claim that DACs don't make much of a difference. There was something like an $80 premium for the 775 over the CDC-685, and the only difference was the DACs. Both players had a lot of detail. I kept switching back and forth between the sources, and I started to hear a kind of smoothness that made the 775 sound more natural.

I told the salesman: "I like the 775, but I don't think it's $80 better.." well he gave me something like $50 off retail for the 775, so I got it. No regrets.

Eventually I got the Axiom M22's because I knew the Yamaha had resolution that the Paradigms weren't revealing (easily demonstrated by going CD player-> headphones). I was right. I also got a Panasonic RP-82 DVD player. While this player sounds decent on DVD-audio discs, it is horrid with audio CDs. Horrid is relative; lets just say that it seemed to have more in common with my portable CD player than my Yamaha.

Bottom line: if you listen to a lot of CDs, an inexpensive, dedicated, well-made CD player will often match DVD players double the price. Ignorance is bliss, but here's the fruit of knowledge if you want it.

-Cooper

Nick, CD/DVD players use dual lasers that operate at the different wavelengths needed to read CDs and DVDs and provide optimum performance for both. There's no good reason to buy separate players if quality of reproduction is the question.

Cooper,
was the audio CD performance from the RP82 really that poor? I've started looking into CD/DVD player options to replace my Toshiba, and the Panny seems to get great reviews on the DVD side, including here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=0&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0

The progressive scan video performance of the RP-82 is indeed excellent. However, I think the deinterlacing issues on DVD players are overblown, simply because they are easier to quantify than audio quality. What is your priority? Don't forget that if you are using the digital audio output from the DVD player, then the audio burden is almost entirely on your receiver.

"Poor" is still a relative term in the audio. My portable CD player can sound "great" plugged in to a good system, if you haven't heard better. But it's all about balance in an audio system. The RP-82 audio performance is probably a better match for lower-end speakers like Paradigm Atoms.

I may get a Denon DVD-2200 universal player at some point, though I wouldn't be surprised if its CD performance was still below my Yamaha. Don't take my word for it; the only way you can be convinced is by listening for yourself.

-Cooper

Cooper,
I certainly agree that the only way to know for sure is to bring one home and listen to it yourself. Unfortunately, since the RP82 is discontinued, it's not easy to find one, especially one I'd be able to demo without buying it. According to Panasonic the S55 model is supposed to be similar to the RP82. Would anybody vouch for them on this? I emailed a couple of time with questions on DACs in the S55 but they haven't gotten back to me.

I'm actually along your thought lines though in looking towards a Denon 2200 or 2900. Both seem like great universal players.

I don't believe that Panasonic has any DVD players with better DACs than the RP-82; it's just not a priority. I don't think any of there current models have particularly good video performance either, as they no longer use the Faroudja chip that gave such stellar performance.

If you want more detailed discussion, head over to www.hometheaterforum.com, and look under the audio/video sources. If you are looking to spend around $300, it shouldn't be hard to find a Denon 1600 DVD player, which has the video performance of the RP-82, plus much improved audio DACs. I think this player also does DVD-A.

If you want to spend more money and get a solid universal player, I think the Denon 2200 or 2900 is the best choice; they use Burr Brown DACs which are supposedly very good. They strike a balance between features, audio/video quality, and reasonable price for something that may be obsolete in a few years (different audio formats and digital connectors).

-Cooper

I just read a post on another forum that mentioned that exact thing Cooper, that the Panny's no longer use the Faroudja chip. I'm in no panic to do anything, maybe not even for 6 months or so. Probably best to wait a bit anyways to see where the DVI/HDMI/Firewire thing shakes out. Fun thing is my budget is anywhere between $25 and $2500, I just have to justify the $2500 to myself.

thanks for the insight
Scott

This thread started as a discussion on whether I'll need a CD player as well as a DVD or not. It looks like if I want really fine audio I should plan on it. That's fair enough. The wife surprisingly agreed.

Having said that, I've been researching DVD players and my hope is to get a BenQ PE8700 some time next year (they'll presumably be even cheaper then). It supports DVI input which leads me to believe that I'll probably want a DVD player that also supports this. I've read of different drawbacks to both Samsungs DVI player and the Bravo D1. The denon 5900 has just come out and although users seem to be impressed I can't see how I could possibly pass a DVD player by the wife that costs more than $500. Does anyone have any opinions on any of these players? I'm assuming a "few" more alternatives with DVI support will be arriving on the market, right?

Thanks,

Nick

Nick, sorry about the hijack. You could always tell your wife spending $2000 isn't bad when it could be $500 each for seperate DVD, CD, DVD-Audio Players. And the former is all in one box!

Yeah...I think the idea is that if you drop $2000 on a player, you WON'T also be buying a separate CD player.

Besides...msrp is for suckers. Soon enough the 5900's will show up on the authorized "b-stock" sellers sites. You'll probably be able to get one for $1400 with full factory warantee.

(visit the Denon site for a list of authorized b-stock sellers)

Oh..I didn't mean to infer that I had a problem with the thread getting hijacked. I was more just summarizing where this discussion started and where I was at now.

So the 5900 is the sort of player that would stand alone for both CD & DVD? I hadn't come to that conclusion yet...I just knew that it had DVI support and if I get the BenQ PE8700 that would probably be worth having. I figured I'd still have to get a CD player of some sort.

I've read quite a few user impressions of the 5900 but no reviews yet. Anyone here got one and have any feeback for CD or DVI DVD performance? Also for that matter component DVD performance. At this rate I might not be getting the projected for a while

-Nick

Nick,
I haven't found any pro. reviews yet, lots on the 2900 though. This one's pretty recent.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=493

What I have heard/read from owners though sounds like the 5900 is the cream of the crop right now.

I guess I feel like my hands are a bit tied right now because we'd talked about getting the DVD player ahead of the other things as it would be the easiest thing to enjoy without the other equipment assuming I don't have 10-12k laying around for everything. Unfortunately I've only seen 3 relatively "mainstream" players that support DVI which from what I've seen is a nice improvement. The 5900, the samsung 931 and the Bravo D1. I guess as we get closer to the holidays when we might "give it" to ourselves there may be other options. Anyone heard of any other reputable places that are working to impliment this technology?

Thanks for the link to the article...it was helpful.

-Nick

I don't know what DVI & firewire support is being planned in future models, but I would expect them to take at least another year to trickle down to more players. I'm not personally obsessed with DVI, as I have a progressive scan TV using component 480p, and an LCD computer screen using analog VGA. Both are excellent.

Where I see a greater potential advantage is in a high-resolution digital audio connection, like firewire. This would allow for enormous simplification by sending all the bass management, etc. to the receiver. But there is always some new technology on the horizon; by the time everyone has firewire & DVI, we'll be looking ahead to HD-DVD or something else.

Because of the continual feature-obselecense of these products, I think it's a good idea to stay away from top-of-the-line. Get a Denon 2200 or 2900 today, and by the time you get a nice firewire receiver and a DVI HDTV, you can pick up a cheap DVD that is purely a digital transport. Besides, if you jump straight into the top-of-the-line, you won't have much to upgrade to! Once you live with a low to midrange unit for a year or two, you can form an opinion about what improvements you desire.

-Cooper

That's probably a good suggestion...I just figured if the plan was to get a DVI compatible projector, I wouldn't want to shortchange the player. But as you say there will probably be other options in due time. And it's not like the PE8700 doesn't have component input. I'll have to reread the reviews and boards and see if I find opinions based on that input.

-Nick

hey guys
fyi, here's the link to a list of all Firewire compliant components:

http://www.1394ta.org/About/products/consumer_products.html

I tried to get a complete list of DVI components, but to no avail.

Scott

Nice find! Thanks for the link. Now to find the money...