Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners M22ti vs M50

First my setup: M22ti Front L/R, VP150 Center, QS8 Side Suround L/R, M2ti Back Surrounds. Denon 2808ci Receiver. BFD Sub EQ. (Also own a pair of M3v2s that are used in my livingroom)

I have had this setup for around 4 years and am quite happy with it with one exception. In my old house I used the Rives CD and a spreadsheet to set the XO on my Deneon 3805. The smoothest response curve I got was setting the XO to 120Hz. I assumed this was due to the strange shape of the room.

About a year ago I moved and my HT is in a much tamer room. (Using RoomEQ for the BFD suggested I should turn it off.) Being lazy I just set the XO to 80Hz and left it there.

A couple of weeks ago I broke down and bought a BD player and replaced my 3805 with a 2808Ci (Got a great deal!) to get the HD audio and HDMI switching. I ran the Audyssey MultEQ config and it set the M22s to 120Hz.

I went back and looked closely at my RoomEQ traces and sure enough there was a huge hole between 80Hz and 100Hz. Then I pulled the freq resp graph for the M22s from this site. It shows a clear drop off under 100Hz even though Axiom gives the -3Db point as 60 Hz.

So, finally, my question(s). I'm considering a pair of M50s to replace my M22s. I know thaI can fill that 80 - 120 Hz. hole with them. But do they have the same brutally clear midrange as the M22s? Has anyone compared them side to side?

Also, what do I do with my M22s? Ideally I'd post here that I wanted to sell them but I don't see any of that so I assume it's frowned upon. What other site lets you post for sale info that would have viewers that are familiar with Axiom?

The reason you see a sudden drop below 100 Hz is because an anechoic chamber does not measure well under 100 ( or it could be 80 ) HZ.

Are you sure your not sitting in a null? It still sounds room related imo.

You didn't mention a sub, do you have one? If so, which? (it would help to know what's managing the bottom end now before answering your question)

Jason

Slo, as Rick pointed out, the anechoic frequency response curve isn't accurate below 90Hz or so. I can assure you that in my room the M22s exhibit no "hole" in the 80-100Hz area, and with room reinforcement have good response down to about 50Hz.
This is in accord with the enclosure tuning, which the low point in the impedance curve(NRC graph )indicates is around 55Hz.

The effect that you describe may well be due to speaker placement and wouldn't be improved with the M50s. Further experimentation with placement may be useful, and in particular you should be careful to have the centers of the mid/woofer cones at unequal distances from the floor and two nearest walls.

The possible room effect that I mentioned wouldn't be due to standing waves, but rather sound reflections from nearby room surfaces causing peaks and valleys.

I had a Mirage OM-200 sub that died. I replaced it with a HSU STF-2. These measurements are across both subs. The sub in both cases is doing it's job (HSU is MUCH better on the low end) in the 80 to 120 Hz. range. Letting the sub handle the 80 to 120 Hz. range solves the problem except that a 120Hz. XO makes the sub locatable in the room.

I really doubt that this is a room issue. For starters it has manifested in two completely different rooms. Secondly, the Audyssey calibration is designed to offset room null problems. Thirdly, the Room EQ Wizard I've used in the new house clearly shows this issue even away from the main listening position. Finally, small differences in distance causing large amplitude changes (standing waves) is way more of a problem at 20-40Hz. than it is at 80-100Hz. and I'm not seeing any issues on the low end in either room.

Sounds like you have it all figured out then.

Audyssey set the M22s at 120hz? That does sound strange, even my QS8s get set at 60-80hz by Audyssey. What did it set the rest of your speakers at?

The 3808 has had a number of Audyssey updates, possibly the program has a glitch in the 2808?

The M50s will sound much closer to the M3s you have, if you want a brutally clear midrange in a floorstander then you need to go with the M80s or even the M60s, which are not as crisp in the midrange but are still very clear, IMO.

Axiom has a tradein program you could utilize to get rid of the M22s.

It could still be a set up problem seeing it was the same person, you, that set them up.

<post removed>

Actually, it's still there.

True, O Master of the Technically True.

But it was degrumpified, or decaffeinated, heh...

What's even weirder is that Audyssey set the M2ti's in the back at 60hz, the QS8s at 100hz and the VP150 at 80hz. Since Audyssey is probably trying to match the other speakers with the center I'm not suprised by the VP150 and QS8 settings. The M2ti setting of 60hz though really bothers me. I selected this speaker setup originally because all the drivers were the same. This should have given me the best voicing across chanels. To think that the the same speaker in the rear is good down to 60hz.while the M22s (same driver) is only good to 120hz makes me wonder what's going on. Cabinet issue with the M22? I know that the bookshelf configuration of the M22s will result in less bass than could be delivered in a floor standing speaker. But since I had always included a sub in my system I didn't think an 80hz. extention was a problem.

I may have to agree with something weird going on in the room or possibly a bad reading; or as I said Audyssey is off. There is no way the M2 can output 60hz and the M22s only 120. I would be inclined to set everything at 80hz and then adjust each speaker to see which setting gives you the best sound and go with your ears at first, not the graphing, that can just drive you nuts. Once it sounds good then take a peak at the graph and go from there.

Maybe try to set the the M22s in the M2s spot and vice versa and then re-run Audyssey to see what it gives for settings.

On the simpler side, I'd double check that all of the drivers in the M22s are working and that you have not wired them out of phase. I did that in my M3/M50/M80 comparo on the M50s. Really skewed the results for awhile.

Getting the M2s off the wall is an issue. I think I'll try swapping the M22s with my M3s instead and see what happens. I don't have a lot of placement options with the front L/R speakers. The TV needs to be where it is and the L/Rs are 2 feet from the rear wall and as close to the TV as I can get them and have them equally spaced. Since my equipment rack is to the right of the TV that puts them about 2 feet to the left and right of my 55 inch screen. I could put them further apart but not closer to the screen. (Too far for a good soundstage.) I also can't get them closer to the rear wall because of said equipment rack and them being behind the TV on it's stand which is already against the wall.

I'll let you guys know the results of the M22/M3 swap.