Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Audyssey set up thread

Just hought I would bring this to the attention of the many owners of Audyssey equiped avr's we have here. This is a link to a post in the Audyssey thread at avsforum and deals with setting up Audyssey.

Link

Thanks, that's an excellent article. When I first got my receiver, I used Audyssey to set things up. I wasn't really thrilled with the results, so after some recent posts here I turned it off and liked the sound much better. Now I'm thinking that I should reconsider and spend the time to tweak the Audyssey settings a bit more.

If I run Audyssey, then use Room EQ Wizard, would it be as simple as going back into the receiver equalizer settings and adjusting the appropriate frequency sliders?

I have been thinking about re-running audyssey here as well.. thanks for the link.

I will definitely be running Audyssey again, because I'm assuming that I might have got undesirable results placing the microphone on my sofa with the wall directly behind it causing additional reflections which is stated not to do-"If the seat back is a few inches behind the microphone, this will cause additional reflections". I don't imagine this will cure my LFE problems, but making the other recommended subwoofer adjustments just might.

Maybe someone could post their results after rerunning Audyssey.

Thanks for the link!

Joe, if what you mean is that you'd run the Audyssey room EQ and then run the REW with the expectation of using its results to "tweak" the Audyssey EQ with the receiver's manual equalization settings, that can't be accomplished. The Audyssey EQ is entirely separate from the rather simple manual EQ provision and they can't be used together. It's either using the Audyssey EQ results or turning those off and using the relatively crude manual settings(or no EQ).

Thanks John, that's what I was referring to. I didn't realize they were discrete settings. I'm going to give Audyssey another try tomorrow and see if I can get some better results.

John,

The 3808 allows you to “copy curve”. What all is included in that curve, I do not know. I believe it’s only seven points along the graph and all Audyssey filters are removed. I tried this function for a while but there was something missing, no matter how much I tweaked it. As I’ve stated elsewhere, I use Audyssey, but I have the L/R bypassed, and I also bump up the center channel 2 DB over all others. I run the LFE pretty close to where the room calibration left it, but I always use the meter and set LFE as close to an average as I can get of 5 DB over the remaining channels (with a 3 DB ave over the center).

One thing I notice with Audyssey active, is bass and LFE seams more enveloping as if I was in the middle of it. When I disable Audyssey, the bass and LFE is more directional. Obviously, my room and my personal preferences are different from anyone else. That is why I always encourage others to give it a try before following the herd that has decided Audyssey is junk.

Could you please explain how you do this, I'm going to try to recalibrate Audyssey tomorrow.

Thanks

Nevermind, I read the post again and realized that it was a silly question that I already knew the answer to.

Read the FAQ on AVS on how to calibrate your Audyssey. For example, after taking the first reading, check your LFE (sub) trims. i.e. let it calculate after the first reading to check out where Audyssey set the trims to. Use the sub's volume to try and bring it down to zero as possible.

Also, I used six instead of the prescribed 8 locations and the sound is incredibly good. And if you turn on Dynamic EQ, WOW!!! what a difference that (feature upgrade) makes. It took me about 4 or 5 different Audyssey runs before I nailed it.

Hmm, more convincing reasons to spend the 100 bucks on the upgrade... I feel myself slowly losing this battle... this weekend watching TV I really missed the Dynamic Volume Control... those loud commercials drive me nuts (especially when the baby is sleeping and one comes on!) ::grr::

Wait... now that I type it that way, I have a great reason to do the upgrade... "It's for the baby honey!"

Yes, Mike; the Audyssey results can't actually be "copied" into the graphic equalizer. It's far more complex than the fixed seven or so frequencies available manually, and also includes some time compensation. The indication of what was done at those few frequencies by Audyssey is only a crude representation of the entire process. Therefore the only choices available are keeping the one or more Audyssey EQs available or turning them off and using a simple graphic equalizer.

Well guys, I ran Audyssey again and I'm in desperate need of some help. I followed the article and set my subwoofer prior to running Audyssey as follows-

volume- 9 o'clock
phase- 0
crossover-bypass
trim -flat

After the first measurement I calculated and stored everything, and then went to "check parameters" and my subwoofer was set to -6, so I ran the setup again after adjusting my subwoofer to 7 o'clock (which is where I normally have it set) it set my subwoofer to -2. Two interesting things occurred. The first was while going through the test tones the subwoofer sounded extremely low and lifeless both times. This is totally different from the first time I ran Audyssey; the base was very evident, and I would get a "rumble effect" that you could feel. I do have a ground loop hum which I don't think I had when I ran Audyssey for the first time, could this mess up Audyssey and ultimately my subwoofer setting? The second thing was the way Audyssey calculated my speakers-

Front left/right- +4
Center channel- +2
Right side channel- +3
Left side channel- 0 (interestingly, because of the design of my room this speaker is actually 2 feet further away from the listening position than the right side channel)
Right rear/left rear channel-there was a difference (sorry can't remember exactly from memory) between the two also but they are spaced out identically.

I gave up from a mix of frustration and short on time. Can anyone help me out please, and sorry for the long post but I'm trying to be as detailed as possible.

Thanks

Cam, just wondering, how many positions did you use to set up Audyssey? It seems that 4-6 appears to be required to give Audyssey a chance to 'visualize' your room and make the proper adjustments.

I only did the listening position and stopped because I was following the directions under part G."calibrate the subwoofer volume" where it states "3. After the first measurement process is complete, select "Calculate", then "Save" or "Store", then go to "Check Parameters"". I had planned on doing six positions spaced out 2 feet identical to the diagram but stopped because of the low subwoofer output as I didn't know if the ground loop hum could cause it, and I had to wait another day for my father or a friend to help me locate the problem. One thing that I haven't tried is loosening the screw (or whatever it is you do) on the back of my EP500.

Cam,
Move forward with the six or eight (try them both). Don't worry about the seemingly feeble sub output. I had the same thing happen on my EP500 (using 3808 as well). The *only* thing I did after running 6 positions was to change the main speakers to small. I left everything else alone including the crossover settings. I can *ASSURE* you that my EP500 nearly knocked the wall down when the THX demo scene came out on the INDY4 Blu-ray disc.

For me, six positions were much better than eight. With eight positions, the center sounded muffled and the bass was very boomy! The CBS/FOX NFL shows with the constant "swhoosh" sounds on intro's nearly killed me. But now, it sounds PERFECT.

Oh, BTW, I imagine the ground loop hum could affect Audyssey. You may want to address that first.

Allright, will do, thanks for the input. Did you use the six listening positions from the diagram spaced out by 2 feet?

I wonder how much ambient noise affects Audyssey? It seems like everytime I run it the neighborhood dogs decide it's a good time to start barking in unison, or some dude wants to rev his car engine in his garage, or the neighborhood kids start yelling and skateboarding. I have the window shut and everything, but I can clearly hear it all.

Try it at 2-3am that's when I usually run Audyssey, not much going on at that time of night, but I am in the basement and the rest of the family is 2 floors higher up so it doesn't bother them.

Good idea. I don't remember the last time I was able to stay up that late, though. I require lots of beauty sleep.

I am lucky I think?? I get home from work at 2:30AM, so it is not a big deal for me. I do get some nice peace and quiet for an hour or so before I head off to bed, it is the 8 AM awakenings that are hard to take, beauty sleep, never heard of it.... I believe MDrew knows of what I speak.

Clearly you require more than you're getting.

It used to drive me up the wall because just as I would start the calibration process, the workers would come and cut the lawn in the back (I live in a condo). GRRR. I did turn off my AC/fridge before calibration though. The chirps are not that loud, so it's very doable at night time.

Oh yeah?? Well. . .



i got nothin'

I'm glad I'm not the only one! It's like I can count on it being noisy when I'm ready to run calibrations.

Cam - to the earlier question regarding the screw on the 500 for ground loop hum, definitely loosen it. On my 600, it immediately got rid of a VERY loud ground loop hum.

Jason

Sleep?? What the heck's that?

Noise does affect the set up....big time. So do pillows, blankets and your body. When you run the program, make sure the house is quiet and neighbor isn't mowing the lawn. Move all the throw pillows and other crap that tends to clutter the movie room out of the room and keep still during the set up (be quiet). Mount the mic at EAR level. If you tend to slouch, adjust for that. If your head is below the headrest, put the mic at that level. If it’s above, move the mic above. As anally ridiculous as all that sounds, I can attest without any doubt (based on my own experiments and failures) that all of it effects the set up.

Not too sure what this 9 O’clock sub setting means. I put my 600 at 50%. Keep in mind that my room is quite small for a 600 (12X18). Even with the sub that high, there is enough trim in the 3808 to compensate with the sub at 50%. I believe the 3808 will go to a -30 db with the LFE channel.

Run the set up in at least five positions. Just pick five areas where someone is likely to sit. No need to get scientific about it.

After set up is done and you save it, get your meter out and verify channel levels and adjust as needed. My personal preference is to set the center 2 DB over the mains, all the surrounds the same as the mains, and the sub 5 DB over the mains. You may also want to change X-over points, but I’d stick with what Audyssey set up first, then tweak later if you don’t like it. Don’t worry about distances either. Unless they are totally off the map, just leave them.

On the contrary. With the exception of your own body and extra noise -- quiet is key -- when calibrating your theater you should have everything in there that will normally be in there.

Including (but not limited to) any brother-in-law that usually lingers around.

I am going to remove the ground loop screw and rerun Audyssey tomorrow, just one question, where is the screw located? It mentions it in the manual but it doesn't show where it is.

Thanks

Look at "step 8" on the following online manual (right next to the balanced line in).
http://www.axiomaudio.com/global/downloads/3/EP500600.pdf

Thanks, I looked over the manual twice and saw "step 8" but I failed to notice it highlighted on the back of the subwoofer diagram. Must be the man-manual thing in me LOL. Must brush up on those skills.

Hi guys, I must have screwed something up after running Audyssey yesterday. The results were very poor(probrably due to improper mic placement. I scrapped the results that Audysses produced and attempted to re-run today. When I plugged the mic into the input on my 3808 Audyssey did not automatically start. After trying to run Audyssey through set up it says no mic or speaker. I must have changed a setting in my reciever that is not allowing me to run Audyssey but I can't figure out what it is. Any help is greatly appreciated.

After digging around a bit, I'm fairly sure that on my 3808, I only have the flexibility to go down to -12 dB. Just in case anyone else is in this situation and fruitlessly searching for how to get down to -30 dB, you're not alone.

Note that I haven't updated firmware in awhile, so that could be my problem.

Jason

I've never upgraded the firmware on my 3808. If I have the same problems after running Audyssey again tomorrow (subpar LFE results), do you think a firmware update might rectify my problem? If I checked what firmware version is currently installed, is there anywhere online that I can find out how dated it is, or would that require a phone call to Denon?

I can only go down to -12 dB also Jason.

AVS Forum Denon 3808 Firmware Thread

There you go Cam.

Ok, I found that I had selected AUX1 and after selecting MIC in the menu I was able to run Audyssey. I am very happy with the results and my Axiom system sounds amazing now! Not that they didn't sound good before calibration, it all just blends so well now. The only thing that looks strange is the 23.1ft distance that Audyssey calculated my sub to. The sub is only 12ft from the reciever and 6ft from the main listening position. It is firing into the rear right corner so maybe boundary effect is playing a roll in Audyssey calculations? It also set the sub channel level to -12dB. My crosover settings are center channel 60Hz, suround A(QS8) 120Hz and nothing listed for fronts. In the menu it says advanced for fronts. M60's were set to large and VP150 and QS8's were set to small. Please let me know if these settings look ok. I apologise for jumping right in on this thread I didn't want to start 50,000 different threads with question all over the place. I know I'll have many more questions to ask. Thanks for all the help.

The settings look somewhat normal. The settings will be slightly different from room to room. The sub distance should be set about twice the actual distance to account for the DSP lag time. The -12 is most likely due to the sub gain being a little too hot for Audyssey's liking, you can bump that -12 up to what ever sounds good or just leave it. I would start to play with the speaker size settings and see if you like the fronts set to small, I am willing to bet they are set at a crossover of 40hz, I would bump that up to 60 and see if it makes any difference for the better or worse.

Or you can just leave it all 'as is', since it sounds good to you, that is the important part.

After skimming the article I can find at least a few things I did wrong. I will try to re-run audessey following the suggested procedures and see what I think... may be a week or two before I get a chance to do that though.

If I like the results I may buy the $100 upgrade and re-run it.

Since your sub level is -12, you should turn the gain on down and try again. The goal is to get less than -12 (since that is the max).

That's my current plan as well. I ran the firmware upgrade today to get me to the point where I can actually buy the upgrade if I want to, so now I just need to recalibrate.

dewd, I am trying to understand your suggestion. I prepared the sub for Audyssey by turning the volume to the 12 oclock position, defeated the crossover and set the phase to 0 as the manual requires. Before Audyssey the sub had very little impact on the sound even if I turned the sub volume up to max. After running Audyssey the sub adds a significant impact to the sound and blends very well with the M60's. I was under the impression that after running Audyssey the volume or gain control should not be touched and changes should be made through the reciever only. Please correct me if the info is incorrect. I even went to the sub setting in the reciever and selected +5dB istead of 0dB with a little bump in LFE. So far Audyssey has enhanced the sound of my system tremendously for both music and HT. Let me know what you guys think about the settings.

I believe what Dewd was referring to was that the first time, you said Audyssey set your sub at -12, which is sub-optimal. In your last post though, you said it set it at 0, which is more normal. From there you absolutely can adjust up or down as you prefer the sound. However, if you start at -12, you are limited by the fact that you can only turn the volume up, not down. For this reason, dewd was suggesting that you turn the gain on the sub down and rerun Audyssey (so that the natural setting from Audyssey would be something closer to zero - which it now appears to be).

Jason

Hi myrison, I'm still confused with the Audyssey settings. Perhaps I did not explain things clear enough. I just went into my reciever settings and documented what I am trying to convey. Sorry for the confusion.

When I go to AUTO SETUP-PARAMETER CHECK-CHANNEL LEVEL CHECK and check all the speaker levels the sub is set to -12dB by Audyssey. My other speaker levels are FL+5.5dB, FR+5dB, C+0.5dB and sub-12dB. These are Audyssey setting right?

When I said "I selected +5dB istead of 0dB in the reciever what I was refering to was going into AUDIO SETUP-EXT.1-SUBWOOFER LEVEL then selecting +5dB from options of 0dB,+5dB,+10dB,&+15dB.

What is not clear to me is that you say I can not turn the sub down, only up. How does one control the subwoofer output from the reciever(3808). Are you suggesting I turn the volume(gain)knob on the sub from 12 to 9 oclock and rerun Audyssey to see if it calibrates my sub closer to 0dB? Thanks for your suggestions.

yes this is what Audyssey set them to.

this is the external subwoofer in for the analog inputs on the back of the receiver, unless you are using this ext. input it is doing nothing.

While listening to music, not with the NET/USB input, you can set your speaker levels by pushing the center button on the remote, this brings up the speaker levels and you can now bring the sub levels up or down.
Yes.

Thanks for breaking it down in an elementary manner jakewash. I understand that Audyssey compensated for the signal being to strong from the sub and set the level to -12dB. The goal is to be around 0dB so the level can be adjusted up and down. The 3808 is an extremely technologically advanced piece of equipment and learning it's features has proven to be a challenge. I guess I should have choosen a more simplistic reciever for my 1st HT project. Live and learn!

Well, I got a chance to rerun Audyssey and I'm happy with the results so far. The main changes I made to the setup where that I used a tripod, and I didn't sit the Audyssey mic on my sofa which is against the sidewall because of possible reflections which would give me undesirable results and the sofa is "outside" the location of my right channel. I adhered to the suggested listening points in the setup from AVS, and started with my subwoofer volume at 9 o'clock. I did find that under "stereo mode" my front l/r speakers were set to large and without a subwoofer which I switched accordingly.

Next I will check the crossover settings for each individual speaker (which I looked for but couldn't find) and post my results to see what you guys think.

Thanks for all your help, it's greatly appreciated.

Think of it this way. The high and low for Audyssey to play with is -12dB to +12 dB. So if you are at the lowest setting, it can't go any lower. What if it *had* to go lower to give you the best response? Since Audyssey is as the speed limit already, it can't go any higher (or lower in you case).

After dishing out advice here left and right, I just about made myself totally NUTS tonight after rerunning Audyssey in my own room.

I followed the steps in the document, took readings from 8 listening positions, etc, and then popped in the Dave Matthews Band Blu-Ray which is one of my favorites.

I started with Audyssey on and immediately found that it sounded awful (literally awful, not just bad). So, then I turned Audyssey off, and to my chagrin, it sounded exactly the same. Ack! So, I went back, checked crossover settings (again), speaker sizes (again), binding posts, everything I could think of. I even unplugged and replugged both the Denon & the PS3.

All to no avail... Here's where I skip a lot of cursing and additional screwing around and cut to the solution.

Last night, I watched a movie on the PS3 but did not have the remote control (my wife was using the URC in the next room), so all I had was the PS3 controller. Using a menu in DVD playback in the PS3, you can turn the volume up and down through the PS3 (-2 through +2). Well, I had it up to +2 from the night before and didn't realize what an _awful_ (again that word) effect it has on the overall sound. Once I finally found out what was wrong, I turned it down to the original 0 setting and decided I'd had enough screwing around for one night.

I'm going to bed and will compare Audyssey on and off in the morning when I've recovered. Right now I still feel like I'm hearing the harshness from the pre-correction listening and I need to get it out of my head.

It was a truly scary 60 minutes while I couldn't get anything but totally crappy sound to come out of my Epic 80 setup!

What he said :-)

Glad to know I wasn't putting words in your mouth.

To the contrary, throw pillows, blankets and bodies rarely reside in the same location time after time……… No different than moving furniture, which would require new calibration.

I’m tired and need a beer. Too many other posts to read right now.

After running the calibration, I thought I'd point out two things from the Tips & Tricks article that stood out to me.

From section VII B "After Calibration":

This seems like strange advice doesn't it?

And then, in the final note to the document, on the last page:


This too just seems strange to me. I've asked the question about reference level volume in the past and the consensus was that there's no such thing because all movies/music/etc. are mixed differently, resulting in different sound levels at different volumes on your receiver. Not to mention different speaker efficiencies resulting in different volumes at the same gain level on the receiver.

Overall I thought the document was very helpful, but I don't think anyone should get to hung up on following the advice on either of these two points.

Jason

At the beginning of the thread the OP does say this

"Disclaimer: The following procedures may not work in all cases, as there are too many variables to account for in this document. If you feel further assistance is required, please visit the AVS Forum Official Audyssey thread, linked above."

So it is meant just as a guide and everyone should do as they see fit for their respective rooms and sonic tastes.

Don't get me wrong, on the balance, the document is really helpful. The reason I called the subwoofer point out is that I actually think it's wrong in more cases than it's right. Maybe with Bose-ish systems (small satellites with a decent sub) it would work, but it seems to run counter to most of what I've heard around here at the very least.

I have seen that 100-120hz subwoofer XO point before in other forums, some people feel it gives more clarity as you have eliminated the low end from your speakers and given it to the one piece of equipemnt that can really handle it well. I don't buy into it, I have tried 120hz all the way down to 40hz and I do not find it to be any clearer, as you said it could just be these are the ones with in efficient bookshelf systems.

Many subs will not be able to reproduce frequencies above 100 Hz. The EP500 for example is -30db at 120Hz.

This is the LFE channel, not a crossover. The .1 part of 5.1. This channel carries signals up to 120 hz. Some AVRs allow you to set this (for reasons unknown).

All films are mixed to 85db (peaks to 105, 115 for bass). That is an industry standard. Music on the other hand, varies all over the board.

If all films are mixed to 85db then why do I have to constantly adjust the level I wish to listen at depending on the DVD I am watching? I should be able to turn on the system, have it set up to -15, or where ever it needs to be for a standard 85db, and away I go, but it never works out that way.

I have found DVD's to be much closer to an actual reference point than any music cd's, but there is still room for error.

Check out this article.

http://cec.concordia.ca/econtact/8_3/fernandes.html

Also, there are white papers on this at Dolby.com. I'm too sick to find them right now...

Get Better!!!

Jason(and Jay) the point about using a 120Hz LFE setting isn't strange, since as Dave(dewd)has pointed out it refers only to the upper limit of the sub for LFE material and doesn't affect the crossover frequency(say 80Hz)for handling bass redirected from speakers set "small". The LFE channel theoretically extends to 120Hz, but in practice very little if any content is inserted above about 80Hz. The reason for not setting the LFE filter control to the full 120Hz is that there may be some extraneous noise(very little)up there; others want to set it at 120Hz to be certain of getting all the LFE content. Either way, it doesn't appear to be very significant to me, although the author of those suggestions apparently feels otherwise.

Thanks Dave and JohnK, I wasn't really thinking about the strictly .1 LFE channel, now I get it.

Aha - thanks JohnK and Dewd, makes more sense now.

Also, for anyone who is interested, this was the earlier discussion on "reference" level volume.

Jason