Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Is it worth getting a headphone amp

This month I will be changing to a swing shift. So as not to disturb my apartment neighbors with late night listening I bought a pair of Sennheiser 600 headphones. They sound great but subsequent research indicates I might benefit from a dedicated headphone amp. The reasoning seems to be that to keep prices of some AV receivers down manufactures skimp on the headphone amp.

So is this snake oil or might it be real? This is the best place I’ve found for AV reality checks so any suggestions.

So far I haven’t found anyone who has one to demo. Played hell just finding a retailer with a nice set of headphones.

Thanks,
Dean

If I were you I would give the Denon headphone out a try before I buy. It will be quite apparent if you are in need of a separate headphone amp.

Should have gone with Grado , they're easy to run at 32 ohm

Dean, I have a pair of Senn 650s and I didn't like running them off my old HK7200 receiver. Just never seemed to have enough oomph to drive the cans. I felt like I had to crank up the gain to get any kind of life into the sound.

Now I use the headphone section built into my tube preamp. The sound is much more to my liking with this. My preamp is said to have a pretty beefy headphone portion, and my ears agree. I now get liveliness and dynamics without having to crank up the volume.

Because Senns in particular have a high impedance I think they benefit most from a separate headphone amp, or a component with a heavy duty headphone input.

Headphone amps are not snake oil. They do enhance the sound. It is up to each person to decide if they want to spend about $200 or more on a decent headphone amp to get better sound.

Headphone amps give more detail, soundstage, bass, and liveliness to your music. I'm enjoying my Little Dot MK III amp and for the price of $200 or so, I think it's worth it. My integrated NAD amp has a headphone jack but doesn't give the quality of sound that comes from a dedicated headphone amp.

My headphones are Grado SR60s and Sennheiser HD595, both easy to drive. However, each has shown improvement in sound when plugged in to the LD MKIII. I'd think your Sennheiser 600 will also benefit since it is a harder to drive headphone.

Here's a link to a review of the LD MK III
http://www.compudio.ca/2007/06/little-dot-mk-iii-exclusive-review.html

There's also many other good amps. Just browse head-fi.org where there are lots of knowledgeable users.

Interesting question. I have no experience with headphone amps or headphones in general but I assume it would work in the same principle as a reciever/amp powering a loudspeaker. I would also assume a good headphone amp would not colour the sound in any way nor add any background noise (hissing, buzzing etc) and would be able to power an in-efficient headphone with ease with the headphones themselves being the biggest factor in the overall quality of the listening experience.

My only impressions is that they are niche market in the audiophile community and is riddled with questionable claims. Many claim headphone amps need breakin and this amp has a chocolaty midrange etc. This raises a big red flag to me personally.

I am glad you asked this question here. I hope Mr. Lofft can chime in. I love Axioms objective opproach to questions like yours. I hope to learn something with you.

I don't think anyone said they were "snake oil". I have a few headphone amps myself. A Creek OBH 11 with an Elpac power supply plus a SOHA hybrid. Both have a bit different sound sig, I like both, plus a couple of portable Cmoys. I run all my headphone through separate amps.

I always suggest that one should try what the have first to see if it is up to their standards. If not then by all means look into a hp amp.

Dean, when I occasionally use headphones I simply plug them in to the receiver phone jack. The requirements for driving most headphones are so simple that it's difficult to see how the phone jack provision attenuating the amplifier output to a level suitable for headphones could be "skimped" in an audibly significant way.

John, just wondering if you have heard a headphone driven through a dedicated headphone amp yet? For me personally, I just trust my ears rather than the numbers. It's difficult to put sound quality into numerics, but if one can hear the difference and like what one hears the numbers don't matter.

I don't know John. When I had the AKG K501s, the same as you I believe, I found the separate headphone amps to be far better with this particular set. When I tried them out of the Onkyo receiver they seemed to muffled to me. Plugged into the Creek of SOHA amp they really came alive.

One might say the headphone amps in receivers aren't as competently designed as the primary amps since they don't have to rate them.

Yes, if you're using high-impedance cans. 600's are.

I have a couple of headphone amps. I have a PA2V2 and a Little Dot MKII (tubed). They are both very good, but the Dot is incredible.

The Dot lives at work with a pair of Sennheiser HD-650's. I absolutely love the setup.

If I connect the HD-650's to a 'normal' headphone output, like an iPod, iPhone, or my home AVR, they sound ok, but they definitely lose something. Bass is lacking, and the overall sound is just sort of drab. I owned them before I bought the amps, and was very close to returning them because I just didn't see what the fuss was about for the $$$. But when connected to the Dot, they absolutely come alive. Bass is strong, powerful, and extraordinarily clear. Highs are clean and very smooth. While no match for a speaker setup, a surprising amount of spaciousness and depth also appears. The realism is intense; close your eyes and the musicians are *right there*. It's almost too good to listen to at work, as it's very easy to get pulled into the music.

I also briefly had a pair of AKG-701's to play with. They were of somewhat lower impedance than the HD650's, but they quite need good amplification too. I also had a Headroom Total Bithead for a couple of weeks but returned it. I wasn't all that impressed with it for the price and had big problems with GSM cell-phone interference. That's a problem for a lot of electronics, but that Bithead would pick up that GSM signal (dit-dittty-dit-ditty-dit-ditty-dit) if there was a cell phone within 15 feet of it.

As Wid said though, with some cans it might not matter. I have a pair of Grado SR-60's (which are absolutely fantastic for the price) and they really don't sound any different if I use either of the amps vs. just plugged into an iPod, iPhone, etc.

See http://www.head-fi.org for all kinds of madness on the topic.

With 300Ohm headphones such as the 600 (I have the HD-650 and the PXC-250), the question becomes important. The most affected aspect is dynamic range. Even my Onky805, which has an OK headphone amp, does not do full justice to the music, but I am still debating internally which headphone amp I will end up using.

For my iPod, both the HD650 and the PXC250 are ridiculously underpowered (you need to have the iPod at max volume and everything sounds like it was a the same loudness). Before investing too much, I bought a small gizmo http://www.boostaroo.com/store_detail.php4?id=5 and the combination iPod+PX250+boosteroo is heavenly (great details and now complete dynamics). I will likely stay with this setup, although I am a bit annoyed that they are using AAAA batteries instead of AAA for which there exist chargers.

Combinarion Laptop+HD650+boosteroo is very good too. The combination Desktop+Audiobytes+boosteroo is OK, but not worth the change.

The combination Onky805+HD650+boosteroo is unfortunately terrible (really, REALLY bad; I think the little gadget does not like when the source is more powerful than an iPod or laptop) so I will be still on the lookout for a HT headphone amp.

Hello Mr. Grunt

I've heard a bunch, and my personal and absolute favorite is the Bellari - VP130 Tube Phono Stage Headphone Amplifier which go for about $250. This is a really terrific headphone amp and, in the event, you ever want to dabble in the heretical black arts, it is a great phono preamp. In my opinion, the Bellari is a steal.

BTW, there is a very significant difference in sound quality using headphone outs from most receivers and a dedicated headphone amp, and among those dedicated units, there is a huge difference. It won't be a surprise to Axiom folk that the quality of these dedicated headphone amps is not price dependent.

Anyway, nice chatting with you Grub, and I hope your new shift and headphone amp works out for you.

Wow! Thanks for all the great feedback especially the recommendations.

@Rick - I have been using the headphones for 4 weeks now and love the sound but just didn’t know if I was missing something. This really started because I’m looking for a way to get power to the headphones while still being able to use the subwoofer line out on the Denon to get and lfe signal to the Buttkicker. I looked at the Gados but they all seem like they are supra-aural which I just can’t stand after wearing circumaural for work most of my life.

@Sean - I’ve been considering upgrading my electronics to get tubes somewhere in the path probably either a tube preamp + solid state amp or a hybrid. Since I don’t need it to be portable and the money would benefit my whole system your method sounds promising. Any recommendations?

@lkv_11 - Do you think the biggest difference between the integrated NAD and the LD MK lll is the tubes or something else. I ask because as mentioned above I’m already considering tubes for my main system. Be nice to get two things done with one upgrade or do you think a separate headphone amp is likely better than the headphone jack on a speaker amp.

Looks like it’s time to call Dan and make another appointment at his shop to try out some speaker amps while I still look for somewhere to demo some of the headphone amps recommended here. Good excuse to buy some more music since I’ll be there anyway.

Cheers,
Dean

Dean, a tube preamp is a good way to get into tubes without spending a lot, relatively speaking, of course. As far as good preamps with a nice headphone section, I haven't looked in a long time. Maybe this is a good start. The Woo amps get good reviews over on head-fi. You might browse around the boards there looking for recommendations.

Grunt, I don't know if the biggest difference between the NAD and the LD MK III are the tubes. I am not familiar with the technology in each equipment so can't say what makes the LD MK III better than the headphone jack on the NAD. However, I think the tubes have something to do with imparting smoothness and warmth to the sound. When I listen on the tube amp, it's like the music has increase dimensionality. Where it was two dimensional before, now it becomes more three dimensional.

My Little Dot MKII can also function as a tubed preamp as well. Many folks use them for that. It is a handy way to experiment with tubes to your home system without spending $$$ on a dedicated tube speaker amp.

I know there are a few people on this board that can't stand tube amps, and they are absolutely entitled to their opinion. They do slightly alter the sound, and some people can't stand that. Warmer, smoother, smokier are all adjectives I'd use. I like it.

But I also just love the 'tubeness' of my Little Dot. I love the audio, but I also I love the aesthetics of a tube amp. I love the warm glow of the tubes. I love the fact that they make little noises they make as they're warming up. I love the fact that the sound changes while the tubes are heating up. I love it when co-workers ask, "are those vacuum tubes?". I love the fact that I can peruse leftover Russian ICBM part websites for upgrades for my headphone amp. It's just cool.

There's just something about it. Kind of like watching a steam locomotive work as opposed to a modern diesel/electric. Sure, the modern one is better in every way, but it's lost some of the magic. Some people don't get it, and that's totally cool. But to me, it's pleasing.

If you do buy one and don't like it and can't return it, there is a very active "for sale" forum over on head-fi. It's likely that you'd lose very little money if you had to sell it there, especially if you purchase a popular amp.

I didn't know the Little Dots could be used as preamps. Good to know. They are on my shortlist for a dedicated headphone amp. You simply can't beat the price on any of the models.

Peter, would you have a link to their Web-Site. Everytime I try to find "Little Dot MKII", I always end up with reviews or eBay resellers. I never seem to get into a position of even guessing what the web-site is called (I guess it will turn out to be ridiculously simple! ).
Thanks in advance.

Eric, I think they are mainly distributed through eBay. They come from overseas. Good pricing, even with the steep shipping. Do a search on eBay for "Little Dot" and then click on the home theater sub link. Most of the amps are from the manufacturer.

Thanks.
Follow-up question: While wait for the info, a friend of mine sent me an email that he has a Mark I. Is there a huge difference between the Mark I and the Mark II?

I don't know. Haven't heard any of them. I think AdamP88 has a Mark II+. You might send him a PM.

If you check eBay, I think there is a link to a manufacturer's forum that will have more feedback on the different models. Also, you can try searching through Head-Fi.com to get more info.

http://www.little-tube.com is the webpage for the Little Dot line. It's really just a forum. It'd be nice if they had product pages with info, but they don't. There is a lot of useful info in the forums, but you have to dig a bit.

These things are unabashedly made in China. And yes, you buy them on fleabay. Just be sure you buy from davidzhezhe. He's the official seller. From my experience he is a good guy. I was *extremely* leery in ordering something directly from China. I had done a lot of research to make sure it was legit, but I was still nervous. But I was pleasantly surprised at how uneventful the experience was. Ordered. Shipped. Delivered.

David answered all of my questions very promptly and honestly, and even followed up a couple of weeks later to make sure I was enjoying the amp. We've had several email conversations since then about tube rolling and such. So I'd recommend you email him if you have any specific questions (differences between MK1 vs MK2, etc). Honestly, it was one of the better eBay experiences I've ever had. The shipping was expensive ($40), but I've had stuff shipped from 90 miles away that took longer than that amp did from Shenzou, China. I had it within about 4 days.

$200 felt like (and is, to most 'normal' people) a lot of money for a headphone amp, but I am quite pleased with the results and would do it again if something happened to this amp.

The best place for comparisons and unbiased discussion would probably be the head-fi amplifier forums. There are a few threads dedicated to the Little Dot line. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/

A quick follow-up to my last post....

Here's the direct link to the product descriptions.
http://www.little-tube.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=193&posts=2&start=1

From there you can link to info & photos about each model.

It would appear that you can also buy these directly from David as well and bypass fleabay all together, just contact him at his email address.

Thanks a bundle! I actually found it from your previous post (it was the first item in the forum). Also received some news from my friend. The Mark I uses a battery for transport duties (iPod and stuff). He's going to lend it to me next week.

In the meantime, he was going to buy the Mk V (solid state) for xmas. So I just bought it. If I like it, I keep it and if I don't, he'll buy it back from me. So, nothing to loose!

Thanks again for the info.

No problem. Happy to have helped!

Enjoy that Mk V! That's a beast of a headphone amp.

Thanks for the info on the Little Dot, it looks very interesting to start out with.


If you find the time I would like to hear what you think of it.



I also like the effect especially when used with detailed sounding speakers just didn’t have a secure enough job at the time I was shopping for my system to indulge myself. I’m also looking for a house right now and don’t want to skimp on my preferences this time around. Which is why I’m definitely going to get something I can use both for headphones now and integrate into my speaker system later.

Thanks for all the help lots to digest here already.
Dean

Small update on the Boosteroos gizmo and the Onkyo805 (since I said the result was "terrible"). I spent some time (a very long 2 hours) re-trying the tiny booster. I reduced the gain on the receiver by 17db and it started to sound right. It is hell trying to balance volume and gain between the HD650 direct or through the gizmo (a good 60 minutes of careful listening; not nice-and-objective SPL meter to help calibrate here!).

I will need a lot more tests to form any firmer opinion. So far, there seems to be better dynamics, but I am not yet convinced I have the proper difference in gain under control so it is hard to be certain that one is not artificially louder than the other. In any case, the difference so far is not enough to be worth the trouble (and the AAAA batteries) to use the Boosteroos (which does a marvelous job with the iPod) to supplement the 805, BUT, it does point to go times ahead for a proper amp using line-levels.

My friend is supposed to lend my his Little Dots Mk I mid next week; I will try both iPod config and receiver.

Newer update (a tad more numerical).

Goal: try to measure if there is an actual difference in dynamic range between the HD-650 direct to the receiver or through the Boosteroos "mini-amp" (both out of the headphone jack). (sound quality was NOT part of this experiment).

Measurement method: The best I could come up with with what I had at hand was to lay down the headphones on a thick mouse pad (to avoid reflections) and to put my SPL meter in between and never touch either during the tests.

Samples: I used last year some pink noise test tones from the Internet (does not recall from where) that were in 10db increments and in "double-mono". Here, I used 5 and setup the volume so that the middle one read 85db.

Other: tests interrupted twice when the fridge was in operation! (THAT's annoying!)

First pass (numbers rounded up):
SPEAKERS: 65 75 85 95 105 (40db)
BOOSTERS: 72 78 84 90 96* (24db)
STRAIGHT: 61 66 72 77 80 (19db)
(*) quite a lot of distortion at that level, which led me to reduce the volume until distortion was gone (3db less did the trick)

Second pass (-3b from first):
SPEAKERS: 62 72 82 92 102 (40db)
BOOSTERS: 69 75 81 87 93 (24db)
STRAIGHT: 58* 63 69 74 76 (18db)
(*) Getting close to the limit of 55db of my SPL meter

Conclusion: Since my measurement method was a bit lacking in proper tools, the numbers themselves (the absolute value) must not be used (in the sense that the difference in range between the headphones and the speakers cannot be judged from the 40/24 ratio). The only numbers that mattered to me were that the mini-amp seems to be following a linear curve (6db/10db) while the straight connection seemed to be peaking as the test tones got louder (and note that the peaks of a lot lower in loudness than their "boosted" counterparts).

By shifting -3db, I ended up with a better listening experience as the pianos were lower in volume and the fortissimos were more impactful. Considering the distortion at higher volume (there was some during huge fortissimos) and the AAAA batteries, it is still better to connect straight (pending experiments with the Little Dots, of course). I might try shifting by -6db to see.

The built-in pre-amp in the Onkyo 805 is actually pretty good, maybe just not meant for heavy headphones such as the HD-650. I will try the PXC-100 (32 Ohm) at some point and report. I am certain that HD-595 (50 Ohm) or Grados headphones would have no obvious need for separate amp.

Well, that's enough for me for now. Hope it wasn't too boring. Gotta go back to working!

"My only impressions is that they are niche market in the audiophile community and is riddled with questionable claims. Many claim headphone amps need breakin and this amp has a chocolaty midrange etc. This raises a big red flag to me personally."

Dr.House,

You're wise to be skeptical of many of the dubious claims made on sites like head-fi.org. I seldom do headphone listening anymore, and I do not own any dedicated headphone amplifiers so I'll reserve judgment.

I will say that it is the choice of the headphones themselves, their fit, and the quality of the original source recording that will make most of the significant audible differences in headphone listening. Recordings that I've found to be really superb over Axiom loudspeakers also sound excellent over good headphones--I use Grado SR125s if I do any headphone listening--and I've not heard significant differences that I could attribute to the circuitry in the solid-state preamps and other equipment I own that has headphone outputs.

These comments apply except to tube devices, where all sorts of anomalies may alter the frequency response, noise, and distortion. (Yes, 2x6, tube distortion can be heard by many listeners as a positive quality--a so-called "richness" or "warmth" in the bass that isn't present on the original recording. But it's still a distortion of what was intended by the recording engineer and producer.)

In other words, a tube headphone amp has the potential to color or change the sound quality like a tone control or equalizer. I don't want my playback devices, whether loudspeakers, electronics or headphones to color or alter what the musicians and recording engineers intended. The more neutral the links in the chain--the microphones, microphone preamps, storage device, playback device, amplifier and speakers or headphones--the better.

Listen, it's fun to experiment with retro technology, as Peter Chenowith so nicely described it. Little glowing tube filaments, shiny little chassis, these headphone tube amps are very pretty and much more fun to look at than the impersonal steel chassis and tiny ICs or circuit boards of a solid-state amp that sit there like a lump and don't appear to be doing anything.

The same nostalgia factor plays a huge role in the adoration of vinyl by a small niche of enthusiasts. I grew up with vinyl and I love the big LP jackets and their graphics. I've kept much of my vinyl collection--each disc is a kind of marker in my life, where I lived when I bought it, what my tastes were and so on--but I almost never play it for reasons I've written about at length both here and in various magazines.

Headphone listening is very intimate and sometimes very appealing. It's also a bit peculiar, because of the unnatural spread of sound through the middle of one's skull. It also largely precludes multi-channel playback, which can be stunning over a well set up surround system. Sometimes true binaural recordings made with a dummy head and headphone playback can be uncanny in their realism, but the sources and selection are terribly limited (I also went through a period of binaural recordings and headphone playback.)

But I encourage experimentation and it doesn't have to break the bank to play around with good headphones and tube or solid-state headphone amplifiers. Just beware of the ridiculous claims that are made, many of which contradict basic physics.

Regards,
Alan

I have to admit that, when I first looked into this (12 months ago, after I received my HD650 and found them clearer, but a bit flat compared to my previous ones), I was disappointed with head-fi.org. For each comment that seemed to be leading somewhere, I found 2-3 that dealt with (for example) replacing the interconnect cable with some different aliage and getting phenomenal result or things like that.

I actually dropped the whole thing a few months later, discouraged that I would ever find something meaningful (short of buying a 1000$ device to try it!). Then I bought a pair of Sennheiser PXC-250 for my iPod and the device could not drive them (no dynamics at all with the volume at 100%). Since I did not want at that point to invest a lot of money on something I was less than convinced about (I was more convinced before I went to head-fi.org!), I bought the tiny boosteroos amp at 40$ (it was on special). QUITE an improvement. Really impressive.

Now I am waiting for 2 solid-state "Little Dots" (one borrowed for iPod, one bought (with exit stategy if I don't want it) for receiver). I am still far from convinced for the receiver, but I would really like to get the same dynamics I had with my cheaper headphones (the HD650 are otherwise marvellous).

I had a point before I started rambling (): head-fi.org is probably filled with a lot of well-intentioned people, but I have to admit it is also filled with very spectacular assertions that I would like to see backed up by some proper experiments.

Alan, do you feel that this distortion in tube amps ONLY colors the sound? What about the increase in clarity, soundstage, bass tightness, realism, separation of instruments, and many other sound improvements that many listeners report to hear. These don't seem to be just attributed to 'distortion' can it? Also, I don't think they change the sound in the original recording, but rather they bring the sound closer to the original recording as it was meant to be heard.

While I do have my doubts about certain drastic improvements one can get with hi-fi equipment, there are too many anecdotal accounts from many listeners, and even my personal experience can attest that what I hear when I listen with a headphone tube amp is not just coloring, but improvement in "sound quality". I will admit there is warming of the sound, possibly this is the distortion as you say, but I can't deny the greater satisfaction of musical enjoyment. Subjective yes and even if it is measured as distortion...

Alan, you make excellent points, as usual.

But I feel that I must point out that not everyone believes that the enjoyment of music is based entirely on the objective specifications of the equipment. I know, a lot of people around here say it is, and it's one of Axion's core beliefs. But I respectfully disagree. There's no scientific basis why you may like one painting and I might hate it. Likewise with food. I can't stand celery and I don't know why. Same with cars, or beverages, or brands of pencil, or, well, everything. Music is the same way. Everyone's ears are slightly different. But more importantly, everyone's brain is different in terms of how it processes "sound" into "music". Alan, your latest article touches on this. I've read that book you mention, This is your Brain on Music. It's an excellent read that discusses this at length.

And unless you have a live band playing the music for you via unamplified equipment, there is *always* going to be some amount of modification done to the sound waves. I also don't think that recording engineers always have the best interest of the music in mind. See all the recent discussions about the lack of dynamic range in CD's.

But of course, the reality is that Axiom makes speakers and their spiel is neutrality. It's a big reason why I love them. Since they are neutral, they do get out of the way. If I want to throw a tube pre-amp in the line somewhere to 'warm' things up, so be it. Or, heaven forbid, play with a 'Bass' or 'Treble' knob. But the point is that we're not stuck with overly 'warm' or 'cold' speakers for everything.

Here's what I know....
I have a few CD's by a certain acoustic guitarist that I really like. He's a little-known guy. I've heard him live at a couple of coffee-house performances. Very intimate, very live settings. When I don my HD-650's + tube amp, his CD's come alive for me. The music feels like I am back at that live performance. The vibrato on the strings, the soft thump of his hand on the guitar, the sound of his guitar strings rubbing against the bridge, all just "oozes" reality. He's *there*, in my head. Some songs nearly bring me to tears, they sound so good. I can crank up the same performances at home. I often do. It sounds fantastic. There's a spaciousness and depth to it that the headphones simply can't match. But at the same time, it doesn't quite have the same intimacy. Maybe it's poorly mastered CD's that the tubes of my Little Dot are somehow compensating for. Maybe it's the fact that I'm wearing headphones. Maybe I'm just weird. I don't know. But the performance through these tubes are pleasing and simply makes me happy.

Had I listened to and obeyed the 'tubes suck' crowd around here, I never would have experienced that. Which is why I encourage people to trust their own ears, buy from places with good return polices, and to always enjoy the music, even if it takes a tube amp and an equalizer to make you happy.

You make some great points, Peter. When it comes to music, perception is king. If one way of listening to music causes you to have a greater emotional connection to your music than listening in a different way, then perhaps trying to (over)analyze why that is will detract from the experience of music. Naturally, some of that difference has to do with the actual soundwaves being reproduced, but the rest of the contributing factors come from other sources. It would be very difficult to isolate those from each other.

@ EFalardeau - thanks for the detailed info on the booster.

@ alan - thanks for the post. I was and still am very skeptical about dedicated headphone amps which was why I started this thread, hoping to learn more. I never thought about getting one at first because the guy I bought the headphones from asked me what I was using them with, and when I told him a Denon AVR he said that would work fine. He only suggested that I might need an amp for them if I planed to use the headphones with something like a mp3 player or laptop.

Also, what I’ve read here and elsewhere I was concluding that the characteristics people were attributing to dedicated headphone amps was actually because they were tube amps.

@ Peter - excellent post. I did buy my Axiom speakers because I wanted my starting point to be something that was neutral and didn’t colour the sound. Starting with this neutral presentation of what the sound engineer intended I always had every intention and from day one have tweaked it to my taste starting with the volume of various channels.

I’ve always liked the “tube” sound, which sure wasn’t retro when I was growing up, for certain types of music. I listen to lots of ambient, aery, minimalist music and have always felt there is something missing when listening to this on all digital equipment. So even if what’s missing is the tube distortion I want it back. And because I have neutral speakers and integrated electronics I can always have neutral for where I prefer that.

I’ll probably end up getting a tube preamp or amp that I can integrate into the rest of my system.

Does anyone know if there are any digital amps/receivers that have a simulated “tube” effect built in?

Cheers,
Dean

Bellari - VP130 Tube Phono Stage Headphone Amplifier - $250, Stereophile Class B rated. (i.e., extremely highly rated.)

Some people like distortion. That's like saying some people like dandruff. I am not a recording, electrical or audio engineer. Nevertheless, it is clear to me that live music is the standard. The closer music reproduction comes to the sound of live music the better.

A good tube component, seems to produce a more 'you are there' sound. I've noticed this with tube amps and other components that I've had the pleasure of owning or spending time with (Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15DT, Prima Luna Prologue II, H.H. Scott 380, The Fisher 500c, H.H. Scott tube tuner, Ah! Njoe Tjoeb tube output CDP).

Hi Peter,

You've made many excellent points, and I think the key word here about headphone listening is intimacy because in most cases that is indeed what headphones do so well: they bring the music up closer to you. In part, they do that because they eliminate all of your own room's reverberant contributions and anomalies that occur with loudspeaker playback. Those can really influence what you hear, sometimes positively but often negatively.

I'd also agree with you that headphone listening is great for small solo acoustic instruments like guitar (which I play). Multi-channel surround playback doesn't do much for acoustic guitar, unless you're listening to Spanish flamenco with the musicians and foot-stomps of the dancers recorded in a reverberant live setting. (I've got one such recording and it really comes alive in multi-channel playback.)

You're certainly correct about lots of recording engineers in that they don't always serve the musicians and artists very well. We've all got recordings of artists we've heard live whose CD releases may sound awful.

I'd probably disagree with you on the "you like pickles" I like olives" thing. That analogy, while appropriate for foods and wines, isn't apt for sound reproduction but again my (dare I say it) bias is towards controlled blind listening comparisons of speakers, where, given a few sessions of learning how to describe speaker attributes (positive and negative), most listeners with normal hearing will repeatedly choose the smoothest, most neutral (linear) sounding speakers as the "best" or most natural sounding. (This only occurs, as you know, when the price, size and brand name are concealed from the listeners and the playback volumes are made exactly equal.) I also believe that listeners often accommodate various speaker or sound colorations, whether from their speaker's anomalies or maybe certain traits of tube amplification and come to associate that as their reference--until they hear sound that's stripped of those colorations. But that may take years if indeed it ever occurs.

Anyway, lots of thoughtful discourse triggered by your post.

Regards,
Alan

I received the Little Dot Mk I (the solid state portable version of the lot). It turned out that the "loan" from a friend of a friend became a "never-opened-package" because the guy who bought it realized too late (could not return it) that he did not purchase the tube version. So it is a brand new one I have (and WILL keep!).

I spent 5 hours with it so far, testing mostly with the iPod (3 hours), but also with the receiver (Onkyo 805) for close to 2 hours (1.5 hour music, 30 minutes Blu-ray). Testing were also done with (all Sennheisers) PXC-250 (300 Ohm, iPod headphone, for 3 hours), HD-650 (300 Ohm, home headphones, for 1.5 hours), CX-300 (16 Ohm, iPod earplugs, for 15 minutes), PXC-100 (32 Ohm, iPod headphone, for 15 minutes). Majority with PXC-250.

Some tests were done comparing the trio Direct/Boosteros/LittleDot, but rapidly--because of crystal clear difference--the iPod tests were limited to comparing the impact between direct/LittleDot with each headphone and, for the receiver, between direct/LittleDot with HD-650 only.

Some statements in no particular order (but numbered!):
1) It is now clear that the Boosteros does have some distortion. The improvement when used with iPod and 300 Ohm headphones is sufficient to forget about it, but now I know there is much, MUCH better!

2) Because of lack of rechargeable AAAA batteries (thus stuck buying, throwing away, buying, ...), the difference in cost between LittleDot Mk I and Boosteros becomes irrelevant within six months the latest.

3) With the iPod and LittleDot, there is some difference (possibly a cleaner bass with a hint more dynamics) with the 16 and 32 Ohm headphones, but not really enough to justify carrying another piece of equipment (assuming paying is not important!).

4) With the receiver, there is no difference (at least to my ears) with the 16 and 32 Ohm headphones.

5) The PX250 is now AWESOME! The lack of bass has disappeared (bass is not as strong as the HD650, but it is there and very "tight" and accurate). With the Boosteros, the bass was not improved.

6) To give an example of the overall improvement with iPod/LittleDot, tonight I went (part of the tests), for a 2-mile walk so I could treat me to a beer afterward; I was so enjoying the sound of the combo LittleDot/PXC-250 that I went for 5 miles instead (yes, that means 2.5 beers; well, 3 really if you think about it! ).

HALF-TIME CONCLUSION:
So, if you have (or are considering buying) headphones such as the PXC-250 for your portable player, then it is definitely (without the shadow of an hesitation) a must to move to something at least the quality of the Little Dot Mk I (less than 200$ shipped). I have no idea if other amps are any better, but, for my part, unless I can try one for free, I am TOTALLY satisfied with my iPod/LittleDotMKI/PXC250 and will stop looking for improvement in that area.

Also, the build of this product is amazing. It is very, very pretty. Semi-gloss encasing with brushed metal endings. Sturdy to the bone. I can't image what I would have to do to break it (the Boosteroos is a cheap plastic thing).

Now for the receiver tests...

7) The improvements when using the receiver are much smaller than with the iPod. When there is no or little dynamics, there is no improvement (except perhaps a tad better bass, but I am not sure). So I concentrated on things with big, big dynamics (Italian Baroque, Mozart, Berlioz, Xenakis).

8) The receiver had to be lowered by another 5db (-25db to have the "same sound" as the A1400 at -4db) compared to the Boosteroos. So there's pretty just the pre-amp left to the Onkyo!

9) There is a definite improvement in dynamics with music (significantly more prounced with playing SACDs or DVD-A), but not Earth-shattering (like with the iPod). As the music reaches bigger fortes and fortissimos, the bass improvement becomes clearer. So overall, it is a plus.

10) The more spectacular came when, on a whim, I decided to put some Blu-ray disks (actually, just 2 as it gets boring to rewatch the same scenes a few times! ). "Nightmare Before Christmas" sounds a bit better through the LittleDot, but nothing to write home about (just enough to post here about!). BUT, BUT, BUT, "The Incredible Hulk" provides an as clear-cut case as I had with the iPod. I never knew the HD650 could render big actions scenes like that. When connected direct, the dialog is great; there is a lot of nice details and everything. But with the LittleDot, it's like if there was a subwoofer in the headphones and all the "jump out your seat" sudden changes in loudness is rendered just like that (in the sense of "jump out your seat").

ENDGAME CONCLUSIONS (NO OVERTIME):
Again, if you own an Onkyo 805 with headphones that are 32-80 Ohms (like the Sennheiser HD-595, for example), I doubt there will be much difference; but I can be wrong.

Even if I don't get any more improvement from the incoming Little Dot Mk V (the big solid state amp of the series) currently in custom in Vancouver, it will be enough for me. I would be happy with the Mk I as headphone amp for my receiver, but it cannot be used while connected to the wall (only using the battery), which makes it more-or-less unusable for "living room" purposes.

I never realized just how utterly amazing those headphones were (both PXC250 and HD650). I am currently finishing watching Hulk as I type and I can't believe the level of details they now reveal, especially at higher volume (in the "quiet bits", it is pretty much the same with or without the mini-amp).

I could type more, but I am actually getting tired and contemplating going tp sleep by listening to a nice SACD! And I still have 0.5 beers to drink

Bottom line is: I am very, VERY pleased with this product and recommends it to anyone needing/wanting a small headphone amp but who are, like me, not particularly big fans of tubes (sorry Peter!).

Hope I did not bore too many of you!

Wow! Great info. It’s nice to hear a detailed review of the non-tube version since most of the reviews I’ve seen for headphone amps are tube amps.

Someone's been busy! Seriously, thanks for the great review and thoughts on the Little Dot.

Nice write up Eric, thanks.

My thoughts exactly Peter. You are not alone around here in preferring the sound of tube amps to solid state. I borrowed my brother-in-law's Jolida 302B for a couple of months and it greatly improved my system by providing more detail and depth to the music. I am currently saving for a Manley Stingray but other expenses keep prohibiting a purchase. There is a gorgeous Stingray for sale on Audiogon right now. Perhaps next year...

Additional: (don't worry, this should be short!).

I spent about 40 minutes this afternoon retrying 16 and 32 Ohms headphones because I had forgotten last night that the "gain" on the LittleDot was set to maximum (intended for high-impedence headphones). I do not know if when set too high it is not operating as well, but when set to the lowest gain (there are 3 levels), it is doing a better job than direct (dyn and bass). Enough to be worth carrying that device on top of the iPod? I'm not sure. I just wanted to correct the misinformation I unadvertantly gave in last night's report. Note: I have not retried 16 Ohm with receiver (and will not spend the time either).

And my LitteDot Mk V is STILL at custom in Vancouver (in its third day now).

What no pics

No pics yet. Too lazy to put fresh batteries in camera...
Ok, ok, I'll read a bit (with headphones as the neighbors are downstairs) and then I'll see what I can do...

The pictures are not very good, but, hey, there they are!
(little-dot.com has more pictures for those really interested!)
UPDATE: The Mk V has cleared custom!

The whole contraption usually resides inside the pocket of my Axiom Jacket!!!

1) The little thing. This image does not do it justice as it is the cutest thing!



2) Combo mini amp, iPod and the noise-guard from the PXC-250. This is why I mentioned you there HAD to be a diffence because it is a tad combersome.



3) The whole thing! The PXC-250 are quite cute (if you forget about the ugly noise cancellation black "cigar"!

Eric, shame on you for using the word cute to describe your audio gear. Not once, but twice!


I'm looking forward to your impressions of the Mk V!

That's a very nice portable rig you have there.

Me Again!
A bit of mixture because I don't feel like doing two posts.

In order to prepare for the new sedentary headphone amp (the Mk V), and to be be certain that line output were the way to go instead of using the headphone jack, I went shopping for the missing cables (which include a few long overdue re-wiring). So now I have:

1) 12V trigger for BOTH the A1400 and the EP500 and even the cables to daisy chain another one if need be (that was long in coming as I don't like to have such a device continously consuming power when I don't need it). That was also necessart because of 2)

2) Split pre-outs betwwen front speakers and headphone amp. Stupid 805 does not have full pre-outs for Z2 or Z3 or even Tape-out. They only support analog source for those (meaning that if the source is digital, it cannot be output to Z2 or Z3). Since I have only one single source for analog (rarely used) and about a gazillion digital, it is a grrrr limitation.

3) Because of 2) (and thanks to 1)), I needed a way to have multi-channel output in stereo without subwoofer. And, geez, what da-ya-know, stupid 805 does not support more than one configuration (I had a nagging feeling that this detail would come back to bite me in the sitting implement). See 4).

4) Because of 3) (and thanks to Harmony 890), I now have a set of buttons and macros that allow me to go from speakers to headphones without losing all my weight in sweat (which might not be a bad idea, actually). Spent 2 hours on that!

5) CircuitCity is going out, apparently. I don,t know if they are planning to shut down the close-by resaler only, but I managed to put my hand on a high-quality 20 foot 1/8" cable (for the 12V trigger to the sub) for 2.96$ (retail used to be 29.99). AND, an iPod dock-to-AV cable, cable that used to be 49.99$ (and still is at Future Shop) for 9.99$. I could not resist.

IMPROVEMENT OR NOT?

Surprisingly (at least to me), the difference was not just little. I was expecting some "maybes" with the portable amp and the pre-outs of the receiver (with possibly a lot more differences with the bigger headphone amp which is twice as powerful). But no, improvement is enough to justify the annoyance of the lack of dual-config in the 805. I am now looking forward to the bigger amp even more. Especially that we the new cables, I will be able to have it placed in a much more convenient place next to my couch.

The surprise of the day was the difference between the dock port and the headphone jack for the iPhone. It is QUITE better (which an amp, of course, because otherwise it is much weaker). I was a happy camper with just the amp. But now the camp has a staff to make it better.

One of the last note is that, a feature missing in the 805 that is present in many other receiver can become key in the moment you expect it the least: more than one config. I never understood why it is not more common (they are NO technical reason for it, just firmware laziness), but we should be able to have multiple configuration profiles stored. You start with one profile and, for advanced users, you have to click on a "I know what I do so stop hindering me" button and get a few more profiles.

I assume you mean you are now looking forward to the bigger amp?

That confused me for a moment, of course that's a pretty easy feat.

Very good assumption!

I edited the post!

Dontcha hate it when the typo is not just wrong, but changes the entire meaning of the sentence?

Missed it.

Ok. Received the Little Dot Mk V this afternoon (14h30). It was quite a surprise as CanadaPost was showing the package in Vancouver until early PM.

Pretty tired after all the tests and listening.
Bottom line: very, VERY happy with the thing. Definitely a keeper.

If the Mk I was a marked improvement over straight connection and Boosteros, with an additional slight improvement when using pre-out instead of headphone jack, the Mk V builds on that. The further improvements over the Mk I, although not the Earth-shattering type, are noticeable... by making the headphones less noticeable. Sound is getting closer to the combination M80/A1400.

Previously, I was always a bit disapointed with my HD650 (pretty much like I was with the PXC-250 for the iPod). They were good, but at that price, I felt a bit cheated. I really liked them when I was listening using them and reading. Once in a while, I would go "hm... good heaphones...". Then, when I would sit down to truly listen... well, not so much.

Tonight, I spent an hour listening to a whole disk and it was very, very pleasant (not as pleasant as without the headphones and when the neighbors are not there, but a very positive experience nonetheless!).

Well... I will soon go get a beer (maybe a few) and then listen to something else.

So, unless the next fews days change my opinion or bring out very important info, here are my final thoughts:

1a)For the Combo iPod+PXC250 something like the Little Dot Mk I is a MUST

1b)Using the docking port as line out is highly recommended).

2) For the Combo Onkyo805+HD650 something like the Little Fot Mk V is highly recommended (receivers may differ a lot for better or for worse).

3) I would still like to try something the like HD-595 to see if benefits are as important as with high-impedence headphones.

As for me, I am now SET with regards to headphones and headphone amp!

PICTURES:

This is a surprisingly big device (bigger than the headphones and a little over 7 pounds). I have set it next to my couch on a little glass table (that would benefit from a little dusting!). Pretty neat!



The couch AND the corner!

Eric, I'm glad the separate amp worked out for you. It seems to take a little bit of oomph to make those HD650s shine. Thanks for taking the time to share with us all your testing of your headphone equipment.

That sure looks like a rather nice amp, 7lbs you say. That's some pretty good heft for a HP amp. Good to see you are pleased with your new toys.

This morning was a bit special.

I got up at 5h30 (a bit late for me, but I had gone to bed later also) and decided to listen to something before going to work (Poulenc's organ concerto if you really need to know! ). So I started to listen and, as the few seconds and then minutes went by, I was less than impressed by what I was earing.

So I stopped, convinced there was something wrong with my current setup (remember the number of config changes that are required to move from speakers to headphone!). Everything was fine config-wise. I started listening again. Not that there was anything wrong with it. It justs sounded ordinary (not flat or anything, just "sounded like it sounded").

After another 2 minutes, I stopped again, worried that I had hallucinated in the past week. I switched back to direct headphone. Boy, oh boy! NOW, I remembered what the difference was. It was like looking at a masterpiece through a glass window that is slightly dirty. You get used to it, but when the glass is removed: voila! Let there be light!

I just LOVE this! The amp is so coloration-less and clean that the music just sounds like it sounds. No Wow-ness, no magic, just pure sound straight out of the recording. Even the little noises from the musicians are now so "natural" that they are easier for the brain to filter out. The equipment I love the most is the one I forget about.

After that, I listened to Ravel's Mother Goose and now I was impressed, but only by the fact that I wasn't!

OK, now I am done with this topic, I swear!

Go ahead and say it. You know you want to.

"A veil has been lifted".

It's more like if it has dissolved rather than been lifted!

[quote=lkv_11][quote=alan]
Also, I don't think they change the sound in the original recording, but rather they bring the sound closer to the original recording as it was meant to be heard.
/quote]

I am not defending tube amp sound or discrediting it but I had a recent experience that made me think of this thread. I actually enjoyed this experience at a colleagues house a few weeks ago but it got me thinking about the the comment above.

I was there for other reasons but when I saw his home made Tube Amp glowing like it was alive in his living room, I had to ask if I could have a listen. I wouldn't even try to fake my way through putting the sound of his home made speakers and home made tube amps into words, except to say that I enjoyed it as a very pleasurable experience.

As part of what turned into a much longer visit, he started proudly demonstrating that he had three different tube amps ( two homemade), each with different tube setups. He explained how he has been experimenting with different tube types to perfect his sound. We wired in an A/B switch (you guessed it, home made) and he started switching back and forth. We hardly fell into any controlled blind listening standards but I am very sure I could hear a n obvious difference in what I will call tonal quality in at least one of the three different setups. Between two, I couldn't tell them apart but he did his best ot try and explain the subtle differences.

So my point is, if the hobby of tube amps has experimenting with different tubes to perfect the sound as part of the fun factor (which I think is great) then obviously, tubes do color the sound as each one is potentially capable of coloring it differently.

Again, this is not to demote or promote the use of tube amps, but I think this does indicate that unless you have found that elusive holy grail of tube combinations, it is not automatically bringing you closer to the real thing because coloration seems to not only be involved, but be part of the hobby itself.

That being said, I think I'm more of a purist but I do now want a tube amp just for the fun of playing around with them. Yet another expensive item to add to my "my wife is going to kill me soon" list.

Not more news (still very, very happy with both headphone amps), but I received a tall telephone table I ordered to make it nicer and more convenient. I am also waiting (a few days overdue actually) a HH10 Sennheiser headphone holder to make it nice.

Table is a bit pricy (140$CAN), but it is very sturdy and I will order two more to replace the small, ugly 2-foot high stool holding my back surround.

Here's the "corner" view.



The table has a drawer so I can put headphone-related cables and stuff. Makes the rest of my tables less crowdy with rarely-used stuff. (it also help hide the mass of cable in the corner!)

I completely agree. I remember going into a hifi store looking for new speakers. The salesman tried to get me interested in a valve amp/speaker package. First we listened to a quite good pair of speakers (can't remember what they were) through a mid range Rotel solid state amp. Then he switched to a "Fat Boy" valve amp (why do they have such silly names?), and the difference was realy obvious. I couldn't say which one sounded the most inoffensive, but the difference was SO marked that the valve amp must have been coloring the sound significantly.

I agree - the more netural the better. That way I know what I am getting, and if I need to tweak it, I can get consistent results.

I must add though, that I don't think all solid state amps sound the same. The differences are obviously more subtle than what you get between different speakers and sources, but they exist

Shane