Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners PLEASE HELP!!! Amplifier for M80s

I am using a Denon 3808 with a Home Theater 5.1 on Zone 1 and Algonquins on Zone 2. I want to connect my Axiom M80s through the Zone 3 pre-outs and need to choose a stereo amplifier to drive these -

Options are -

1) Harman Kardon HK 990 - stereo integrated amplifier rated 300w/ch at 4 ohm - individual power supply for each channel - price here is US$ 1350 equivalent.

2) Onkyo A-9755 - another stereo integrated amplifier rated 300w/ch at 4 ohm (yes, specifically states this) - independent power supplies for each channel - price here is US$ 700 equivalent

3) HK 3490 Stereo Receiver - several redundant functions and less capable but much cheaper than the HK 990 at $420...

Any thoughts on which of the 3 someone would choose much appreciated since I have no clue. in particular, please comment on HK 3490 vs. Onkyo A-9755.

Key points -
1. Would happily pay the extra $200 for the Onkyo if a much better choice but worried since in general Axiom recommends avoiding Onkyo for the M80s (though I suspect this stability concern vs. relates to Onkyo receivers that are rated for 6 ohm and have some indication for rating at 4 ohm rather than for a somewhat higher end stereo amp such as the a-9755)
2. if the onkyo is out as an option, not that keen to spend the extra $930 for the HK 990 vs. the HK 3490 unless HK990 is a much preferable solution and 3490 not really suitable
3. play the M80s to music only in a 30 ft x 20ft room

Many thanks.
------------------------
A-9755 SPECS - I am told model not available in the US - here are the specs if that clarifies matters for someone...
AMPLIFIER SECTION
Power Output ........................................................................................ 300 W/Ch (4 Ω, 1 kHz, JEITA)
Dynamic Power..................................................................................... 330 W + 330 W (3 Ω, Front)
270 W + 270 W (4 Ω, Front)
170 W + 170 W (8 Ω, Front)
Total Harmonic Distortion .................................................................. 0.08 %
Damping Factor .................................................................................... 25 (Front, 1 kHz, 8 Ω)
Input Sensitivity and Impedance
Phono MM .......................................................................................... 2.5 mV/50 kΩ
CD ....................................................................................................... 200 mV/50 kΩ
Output Level and Impedance
Rec out................................................................................................ 200 mV/2.2 kΩ
Phono Overload.................................................................................... 70 mV (MM, 1 kHz, 0.5 %)
Frequency Response ........................................................................... 10 Hz-60 kHz (+ 1, - 3 dB, CD)
Tone Control .......................................................................................... + 10 dB, - 10 dB, 100 Hz (BASS)
+ 10 dB, - 10 dB, 20 kHz (TREBLE)
+ 10 dB, 50 Hz (LOUDNESS)
+ 2 dB, 10 kHz (LOUDNESS)
Signal-to-Noise Ratio.......................................................................... 100 dB (CD, IHF-A), 70 dB (Phono, IHF-A)
Speaker Impedance............................................................................. 4 Ω-16 Ω
GENERAL
Power Supply........................................................................................ AC 220-230 V, 50/60 Hz
Power Consumption............................................................................. 125 W
Standby Power Consumption............................................................. 0.3 W
Dimensions (W x H x D) ..................................................................... 435 x 144 x 431 mm
Weight .......................................................................................... 17.6 kg
RI (Remote
Interactive) remote
A-9755
INTEGRATED DIGITAL AMPLIFIER

I really like the look of that Onkyo. I don't think it would have any trouble driving the 80s given that it's a digital amp and is therefore more efficient that standard amps.

I'd question some of these spec's - they're not FCC compliant, they're
JEITA, "Japan Electronics and Information Technology Industries Association".
Power Output ........... 300 W/Ch (4 Ω, 1 kHz, JEITA)
Dynamic Power........... 330 W + 330 W (3 Ω, Front)
270 W + 270 W (4 Ω, Front) @ 1K ?
170 W + 170 W (8 Ω, Front) @ 1K ?

??????????????????????????????????????????????

Yeah, but I don't think that Japanese specs are necessarily any worse or better than the FCC's. It's like looking at Euro horsepower (in DIN) versus US horsepower.

I have no knowledge of U.S horsepower vs. Euro in DIN so I will not comment on the analogy; I’ll assume your comment is correct.
As for the FCC vs. JEITA, It was not my not intention to suggest one was better than the other, even though everything I have read over the years suggest the FCC specifications are more accurate and transparent.

11nyc, I'm assuming since you are looking at integrated amps, that you need a volume control for the M80's in zone 3.

Perhaps there are vintage integrated amps from elite manufacturers that you could consider?

I use a separate power Amp to run my M80's, an Aragon 4004. It works great, tons of power, great bass response. You can find them used for about $600.

Hi 11nyc,

I just looked at your PM so I might as well answer it here. First, those "Dynamic Power" Onkyo specs are a crock. There is no standard test, or rather, it's the power output for a few milliseconds. The real spec should be "Dynamic Headroom" which is stated in dB.

The Onkyo power output is measured at 1 kHz, a cunning way to mislead consumers and state really high power output by not driving the amplifier across the full audio spectrum, from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. I'd avoid the Onkyo.

I've recommended H/K for many years because their amplifiers don't shut down or go into current limiting with 4-ohm loads.

Your room is huge, so I wouldn't scrimp on high-power amplification, especially if you want really high decibel playback levels.

Regards,

Alan

They sold me on the looks alone.

I guess I will have to wait for the HK 990 to arrive here (in Singapore, pre-Christmas I am told) - unless someone familiar thinks the HK 3490 thinks it is adequate.
Unfortunately, no returns here and no trials possible by borrowing the amp, i.e., unless I take the M80s along! So a little gun shy but will also see if I can find the Aragon 4004.
Many thanks..

Would be happy to, though finding them is a bit of a challenge in Singapore esp when not that familiar with the equipment...

That 3490 will power the M80s without a hitch. It's a really good unit for the money.

11, welcome. Any of the units that you're considering would be more than sufficient to power your M80s. That being the case, there's no good reason not to go with the least expensive, the 3490.

If you can find one, the NHT Power 2 is one heck of an amp. NHT discontinued their electronics line and until very recently, you could find their amps dirt friggin cheap. The P2 was origninally 1200 and selling for 300 a few weeks ago. I have the Power 5 and love it.

Mini review... http://www.audioholics.com/news/trade-show-coverage/2006-cedia-expo/nht-power2-amplifier

Thanks again - bit challenging since the one guy here at the audio store that I think is knowledgeable is unfamiliar with Axioms, has other 4 ohm speakers though - thinks the Onkyo A-9755 is ideal and a bargain at the price (feels 'regular' Onkyo amps/receivers may have issues but unless there is something specific with the M80s the 9755 is the best choice etc)

As long as he will let you bring it back if you have issues, you should be fine.

I recommend the BEAST. Yes, also known as the Yamaha M80, or the Yammy Mammy, a perfect driver for the Axiom M80.

Yammy Mammy
Continuous power per channel 20Hz-20KHz/0.003% THD 8ohm ...250w
Continuous power per channel 20Hz-20KHz/0.007% THD 4ohm ...330w
Dynamic Power 1 KHz 8ohm/6ohm/4ohm/2ohm 380/480/640/850 W
Power Bandwidth (0.03% THD, 125W/8ohm ...10-100KHz
THD Main in to SP out, 80W/8ohm .........0.002%
Damping Factor Speaker A, 1 KHz, 8Ohm ...250
SNR (IHF-A Network - Main in Shorted, 5.1k ohm ....127 db/119/db

I have 3 of them behind an Integra processor. One of them drives a pair of Thiel CS 3.6 speakers. No strain. These amps will drive a 2 ohm load. MONSTERS.

Despite those who think all solid state amps sound the same, the M80s are SWEET.

Just a thought.

BTW, the Yamaha M80 is long out of production and can only be purchased used. Those who know them, love them.

Great thanks, understood on Onkyo and dropping that - went to the HK display at a store (limited options I am afraid locally) - added option is HK 980 and less expensive than th e990). So choice is b/w -

1. HK 990 (willing to spend the $1350 if necessary though wld prefer to avoid)

2. HK 3490 ($420 as mentioned earlier - doesnt show 4 ohm, says 120w/ch at 8 ohm but supposedly stable)

3. HK 980 ($550 - 80w/ch at 8 ohm, 100w/ch at 4 ohm - you will recall room is 30' x 20' which you said needs high power - guy at shop recommended this strongly over the HK 3490 since dedicated amp, heavier duty components etc - admitted he is not sure whether this advice holds for Axiom M80s which he has heard of, but has not seen or heard).

Pls advise whether hk 980 better than hk 3490 (I am indifferent to that $100 extra), or if you think the HK 990 well worth biting the addl. $800 bullet...

Many thanks again.

I don't see the 980 being any better than the 3490. I would say the 3490 is almost 2x the power for less money. Out of your choices this is what I would do.

Where are you located that the 3490 is $429? If you order it here it's only $299.

Thanks Rick - appreciate the advice and price pointer - i know prices are higher here in Singapore (so 220v power in = can't even carry it over from the US)...

Oh I see, well that won't work then. Still the 3490 for less money and more power is a better deal.

Someone telling me they can get me an NHT Power 2 amplifier for $400 from the US and bring it over - sounds like a much better bet, no?

Nice amp. Not being familiar with you power grid would you have to buy a voltage converter?

Being able to get the Power 2 for $400 (someone offering to bring in from the US) vs. HK 3490 for similar price locally here in Singapore - worth waiting and going for the Power 2?

supposedly has something built in that simply requires a fuse and some 'bridge change', they supply it with those changed over for 220v, so voila, bring it over and works here..

I would go for it then.

Thanks Rick for being so helpful with this, much appreciate it. Power 2 certainly sounds like a much better bet, esp. even dollar.

Your welcome

Here is a link to the AVS NHT thread. Lots of good information in it. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1006934

The P2 and P5 use B/O Ice Power amp modules. Very clean and neutral sound - IE: does not color the sound, which is what I like. The P2 is rated at 200Wpc / 8 Ohm. Not sure what the 4 Ohm rating is. I’ve seen it referenced anywhere from 300W to 500W. All I know for certain, is my P5 and M80’s play together very nicely and there’s no way I can push it to 100% without incurring irreversible hearing loss.

The one downside to these NHT amps is they do not have balanced inputs. Some folks need balanced, but most don’t. I suspect you don’t either.

ok so now that you have complicated this for me , pls help with simple answers since order going out in 15 minutes!!

1. i plan to use pre-outs from Denon 3808 into NHT P2 - should be ok? i understand the P2 has no volume control but happy to forego that for what appears to be much better amp overall (only reason was poor design - repeat click to switch zones - of Denon remote

2. balanced inputs - what is this? why do you suspect i don't need this (though i suspect you are right)?!

Balanced audio is for impedance balanced lines. They might be useful if long cables are needed – 10M. They are used to reduce noise over VERY long distances between electronics.
I doubt your situation requires balance cables.
Good luck!! Enjoy!

Actually running pretty long cable to the speakers since Amp etc sit at the opposite end of the room off at one corner - so one line runs 30 feet, the other 40 feet (yes, long distances) - all cable is 12AWG oxygen free copper (forget which brand was put in though) - is this going to be an issue and does it rule out the Power 2? In any case, even if a bit of an issue, alternatives are the HK 3490 or HK 990...

How are you connecting the amp to the Denon? The speaker wire has nothing to do with the rca type cables. Where will the amp be in relation to the Denon?

Amp sits next to Denon 3808 - pre-outs from Denon to go to the Power 2 (if I get that) - L & R speakers (M80s) are 30+ and 40+ feet away, at the opposite end of the room..
Problem due to this balanced input issue?
THanks.

No.

Balanced inputs are for the audio signal from the processor to the amplifier. Most people just use standard RCA type interconnects.

Great, thanks.

Mark is right you won't run into any problems. You can forget about the balanced cable issue, it doesn't apply to you.

Ok, done then, thanks much guys...

Saga continues I am afraid -
Not sure there is an NHT Power 2 available, will confirm Monday if one last piece in stock.
Any thoughts on the Crown 402D vs. the HK 3490 - since the bring over from US option is open, and Alan at Axiom suggested Crown, looked at eBay for Crown auth dealers - $350 gets a Crown amp with specs that looks good on face of it (have a 10% off coupon) ...

http://stores.ebay.com/Audio-Video-Giant

I couldn't actually find the Crown amp you were referring to via the link you posted, but Crown has been discussed here several times in the past, though I've never seen thoughts posted from an owner, just as recommendations to prospective buyers. It's interesting to know that Alan recommends them as well.

Here are a couple I've looked at in the past:

XLS 202D (300x2 at 4 ohms), $299. Link

XTi 1000 (500x2 at 4 ohms), $499. Link

If you pick one of these up, we'll all be interested in hearing your thoughts on how they perform.

Jason

If I ever get some cash again, that XTi looks like a great deal.

I know... it's on my list of "things I'd like to have but absolutely don't need" as well.

Jason

3490.

I keep saying the 3490.

Why hasn't anyone mentioned the 3490?

In particular, I'm surprised Rick hasn't chimed in here to mention it!

Hi Jason and 11nyc,

Crown amplifiers are very common in the pro and studio community and in movie theaters, touring shows and professional sound reinforcement. They're very reliable, usually high-powered, most have thermostatically controlled fans, and will easily drive low impedances .

A friend of mine who has a very large combined studio/living space loft in New York has M80s driven by a Crown CE1000, and the M80s sound great there. I've never owned a Crown amplifier but in my days of doing listening tests in several different lab environments, we had Crown amplifiers.

11nyc should check the specs closely to make sure any Crown he considers has unbalanced inputs that accept RCA connectors. All Crowns will have balanced XLR inputs because of the pro applications, but he'll need unbalanced RCA connectors for his Denon.

Regards,

Alan

So finally have word that the NHT Power 2 is on its way. I was too tempted by mdrew's reco, the few reviews and specs I guess. Also it was among the last few pieces in stock that NHT pointed me to - not yet received amp, but NHT great to deal with, and is being switched to 230v before sending out.

After ListenUp so kindly barred me from bidding on their eBay site - yes, without replying to an e-mail question on whether they would ship to Singapore, nice attitude there, glad not dealing with those fellows!

In any case, hope this is the right decision (at least vs. teh 3490 which was available here and cheaper).. Will post once have it set up this weekend.. Big thank you for all the help.

Thanks for the update - looking forward to hearing how it goes.