Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners LCD TV owners...seeking input

OK, wife said the other day..."maybe we should look at getting a flat panel TV for our living room upstairs?" So guys, I need to jump on this one before she changes her mind.

I've done a little research reading consumer reports, and shopping around at the local retail stores and wally world. I know some of you have done your home work on brands, reviews, etc. Just seeking a little help on what you would recommend. Also, have a few questions on installation.

1) What brands would you recommend in an LCD 1080p TV around 50"? (not including Toshiba, long story) Right now I'm considering Samsung, Panasonic, and Phillips. Probably need to stay under $1500 at the max. Something with 120hz and a high contrast rating would be nice.

2) This will be going upstairs in our living room. So we would be getting rid of our nice oak entertainment center and placing the TV on the wall. I have two walls in this room with RG6 Coax prerun to the wall and an electrical outlet. However, I'm guessing to make a nice finished/clean look, I will have to somehow route cables through the walls for HDMI, speakers, etc. so I don't have ugly cables running from the TV down the wall to the receiver. I'll probably use my Denon from down in the HT, and get something else for down there.

She said that wall mounted speakers would be best, , so I'm thinking I could go up in the attic and somehow route wires down between the framing, this could be a interesting project?

Any help, ideas, questions, would be appreciated....

Randy

Randy, a year or so ago, when I was shopping for my first LCD TV, I narrowed it down to Sharp, Samsung, and Sony. Didn't like the Toshibas due to a greenish tinge (went to a couple different stores to confirm). I felt the picture of the Samsungs and Sonys were slightly better than the Sharps. In the end, I chose the Sony--even though they are not my favorite company, but they seem to do TVs correctly.

I'm sure things have changed since I looked at TVs. Never really had a chance to see Panasonic or Phillips. I did have an older Panasonic CRT and I loved the picture on that guy. I ended up giving it to my best friend and he still uses it in an upstairs soon-to-be game room.

Really, I spent a few hours standing in stores simply just staring at screens. Ones that caught my eye I'd delve into the settings and see what kind of tweaking I could do and what improvements I could detect.

Get a Sharp

I have a LG lcd and have been very pleased. It is not the best television on the market but for $1299 it is pretty darn good. What attracted me to LG is that they offer a 2 year (parts and labour) warranty on their LCD tv's. I also know the expert mode password:) for my particular tv so I can tweak to my hearts content:).

Hmmmm, I just checked out some of the newer models on the LG line and they only offer a 1 year warranty now?

Some people hate the way 120hz looks on certain t.v's so when you are looking at a 120hz t.v, disable the 120hz and view it at 60hz and see if the difference in pitcure quality is worth it.

Good point Doc. Wid, how did I know you were going to recommend Sharp.

Randy, I threw out the issue, but there was a test of an LCD in this month's Home Theater mag that used local dimming control and had incredible black levels...second only to pioneer's best Kuro line. I don't remember pricing or even brand (it's not on HT's website), but it might be worth picking up the magazine or at least browsing it at a news stand to see what the model and price were....

Randy, I'm not sure if you will be able to find a 50" or over LCD for under $1500.00, but this 46" Samsung is Consumer reports top rated at a great price. Samsung LN-46A550 LCD

That looks nice. I've used OneCall for a few purchases, including my Denon 3808. They had a sale on it.

I have a Samsung series 6 52", I love it. Full 1080P,it has plenty of bells and whistles, upgradable firmware via usb key. Picture quality is excellent imho.

Randy I did find this for $1577.00 Samsung LN52A550 52-Inch 1080p LCD HDTV

Looks like I have some reading to do...I'll have to decide if I want to purchase locally or online. Consumer reports likes Samsung as well..

I have been very happy with my Samsung 40" LCD(LN4069F(?)), only complaint is when watching football, the ball becomes a blur when it is thrown, this is in SD, HD seems to fix the issue.

Honestly Randy when I was looking to get a LCD the Sharp was highly rated no matter where I read. When I went to look at them the Aquos had the best picture of all the ones I had saw. I think this mishap with the tv was more of a fluke then anything else, I'm just glad we had the extended warranty.

You need a Monster Cable®, then all of your video problems would be solved, no more blur

I have a Samsung 46" 1080P I don't remember the exact model but I've been very pleased with it.

Hi Sir Quack,

Stay away from Philips. Generally poor reliability over the years and it's too bad about Toshiba, which used to have excellent reliability in the days of VCRs and CRTs.

The best-looking images are from Sony and Samsung LCDs and Panasonic plasma. LG are really quite good, a hair behind the others. Sharp always looks great in demos at the CES show but terrible in stores, perhaps because their default picture is lousy or they're difficult to set up--I've never figured that one out. Pioneer tends to be wildly overpriced and, for me, underwhelming in demos despite all the critical raves about black levels. There's more to image quality than black levels!

Regards,

Alan

thanks for the input everyone.

I actually just picked up a Sharp LC-46D64U within the last week.

I know it's not the latest model but I got it for $1199 CDN at the local Futureshop which seemed like a pretty good deal. Went on AVS to the calibration thread and found some suggested settings and the picture looks great. Very sharp and vibrant picture.

Sharp TV

On a totally unrelated note, I was at my local a/v store returning a movie when I stopped to check out one of the more recent Sony LCDs. I really didn't like the picture at all.

Now, a year ago I loved the image on the high end Sony's. I guess I have adjusted to the softer image of my Sony RP.

YEah, I l ove my sony LCD rp... but I am thinking about upgrading to a larger LCD sometime. Prolly in the 65" range but gotta wait for them to come down in price a bit more at that size.

Our living room is 15 x 20, so we would be sitting about 14-15ft back from the LCD/Plasma. I need to decide how big I want to go, but currently thinking something around 50" +or- 3dB.

Running all the wires and connections is not going to be fun.

This is my 2 cents on this topic. As I am building an HT room, I have been researching a lot of TV's LCD & Plasma. One salesman whom is a friend told me that if I was buying an LCD TV, look at the 3 "S" brands, as they are the best (Sony,Samsung,Sharp) for LCD. If looking at Plasma, look at the Panasonic, Pioneer, and Samsung, as Samsung has made some recent advances.

I personally own a Hitachi 42" Ultravision Plasma (2 years old), and even though the blacks were not rated the best, and it had some other quirks, noted by the reviewers, I have had no problems with this TV and the picture quality is great.

Reviews are good to rule out inferior brands, as reviews are very critical, but it always comes down to your perception on the picture quality.

Hope I have not muddied the water's even more.

Is this a good deal?

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=90567

I think it's a good deal. I have the 50PZ77 which is last years panasonic 1080P plasma at this level and it has a great picture.

I'm just worried about warranty situations, buying local gives me a place I can call, how do you handle online vendors?

That looks like a great deal. The set comes with the manufacturers warranty, and if you choose to you can extend the warranty. I purchase online to save on cost and taxes, I haven't bought any of my TV's through retail stores.

Anything warranty wise after the return period you would probably be dealing with Panasonic and the local repair place anyway.

So it's a one day sale only and includes free shipping? Still seems good to me. I had my Panny Plasma shipped to me and no problems yet either.

The whole lcd versus plasma question has me confused.

Hey guys, commenting on warranties, I don't know if any of you have heard of Squaretrade but I buy a lot of stuff on eBay and have purchased a couple warranties through them and they are far cheaper. You can purchase warranties through them with online and in-store purchases, it's definitely worth checking out.

Better deal from Abe's of Maine, anybody order from there? Free 150$ wall mount as well on this deal

http://www.abesofmaine.com/item.do?item=PSTH50PZ80U&id=PSTH50PZ80U&l=PRICESCAN

About what?

There isn't much difference any more although I still feel that the Plasmas have a better PQ and very little blurring issues with any content SD or HD.

Most Plasmas now have antiglare coatings on them so the LCD advantage of no glare and easier to see in brightly lit areas is a wash, even the pricing at the 50-52" level is pretty much the same now. All you have to do is choose the one that has the best PQ to you. From everything I have looked at, I would have to agree with what Alan had commented on about the better manufacturers of LCDs and Plasmas.

I don't know too much about the US sites but doesn't one call have a pretty good reputation? If Abe's is OK for service and returns then the free wall mount seals it though.

I still think Plasmas are better but the advantage has been narrowed signifigantly. The Sharp LCD that I just purchased is very close to plasma picture quality at least for the HD channels. For the SD channels my Panny plasma is better.

Here are the differences: All LCD displays have reduced contrast and overall picture quality when viewed from extreme angles to either side. The picture on plasma sets does not deteriorate viewed from angles. The best LCD sets have improved considerably, but you can still easily see the effect--try it in a store. Watch the picture intently and walk to either side and you'll see the contrast and the color values deteriorate.

This isn't a big deal if you normally sit on-axis or at modest angles away from the LCD screen.

Plasmas tend to use quite a lot more power than LCD displays, some almost twice as much.

The other problems of LCD displays are occasional "motion artifacts" with rapid motion--a blurring of a ball or hockey player moving cross-screen. The increased refresh rates of newer LCD displays combat this to a large degree. Keep in mind that the video compression of MPEG2 or MPEG4, used in all satellite, cable-TV, Blu-ray, DVD, and broadcast transmission of HD also introduce brief but sometimes visible motion artifacts, so it's hard to know what's causing them. Still, watch some fast-motion sports on a couple of different brands of LCDs in a store (and a plasma if there's one nearby) to see if you can spot any annoying motion trails.

Generally speaking, plasmas don't have visible motion artifacts of the sort sometimes seen on LCD displays.

Regards,
Alan

Thanks Alan

Sorry about the delay. The onecall $$ is a great deal. 2 people I work with have the Panny PZ 50" plasma's and they rave about the picture. The only better consumer plasma on the market is the Pioneer, which will set you back mucho $$.

To add to Alan's comments, myself personally, to this day, still hasn't been sold on LCD displays. Although they are improving, there is still a problem with blacks(contrast during dark scenes). Case in point; a few months ago I was asked by a neighbor to calibrate the two sets he just bought. A 50" Panasonic Viera(Plasma) and a 46" Sharp Aquos(LCD). Both were hooked up to HD cable boxes. Both had similar DVD players hooked up to them so I took over my trusty DVE disc and threw it in the machines hooked up to each monitor. The first thing I noticed immediately was that the Aquos couldn't handle a below black signal and along with that and quite surprisingly, even though it was hooked up to its own cable box(same one as the Viera)having been commented on earlier, it did a considerably "poorer" job of handling standard(non-HD) television signals compared to the Panasonic! The Panasonic handled "below black" signals quite easily and had much more flexibility in set-up so in the end even though the gap closed between the two when comparing HD broadcasts, over all, the Viera was noticeably better. The bottom line is you don't know the difference until you have the opportunity of having the two types of sets close to each other so you can make reasonably accurate assessments of each when you are trying to set them up to get the most accurate picture. Dark scenes on an LCD still have somewhat of a "washed out" look and if you try to set the brightness properly(blacks), the picture is too dark.

Until LCD's can cure the "black" issue. for now , I will stay in the Plasma camp.

To add to Casey's comments--and I'd agree on his side-by-side judgment of LCD vs. plasma black levels--, the other advantage cited for LCD is that they're able to deliver a brighter picture than plasma in a brightly lit room.

However, all displays, when run in the so-called "torch mode" ( the setting often used by retail stores to demo TVs), result in burned out whites (no detail visible) because the pixels are over-driven, with color values that become over saturated and unrealistic. My own DLP run in this mode (Samsung calls it "Dynamic") is dazzlingly bright--ridulous, frankly, if you're looking for accurate color rendition.

Granted, there may be times when you have people over and you don't want to view the display in its "cinema" setting in a dim room, but it's better to use the middle setting rather than the brightest.

Regards,
Alan

I bought a Sony 52" XBR (120 hz)last year around Thanksgiving. I agree with Alan that occaisionally I see motion artifactss - mostly pixelizaton. This occurs not so much during fast motion but when there is a lot of activity on the screen. Activity such as maybe an action scene in low light where there is much motion. I do not think it is the TV as much as the compression of the signal. I was surprised to see the comment that side by side the Plasma does not experience the compression artifacts? I have never tried it - I just assumed that compression artifacts were compression artifacts. As for the lack of Black Level - in actual usage I never notice it. I do not look at the screen and think - "those blacks are washed out". Alternatively, if you are going to sit off axis as Alan pointed out, you do lose the contrast and color but that is not an issue for me either. As for the SD content - I would classify it as Good on my set. Glare - I would check out the anti glare coatings on the Plasmas to see if they degrade the picture quality either head on or off axis. Some of the LCDs - Samsung, I think also have put glass over their LCD's introducing glare.

The comment I would add is that all HD is not created equally. Looking at the network sports broadcasts - whether ESPN, NBC, FOX, etc., you can tell when they have brought the "good" equipment to the broadcast. Channels like Discovery or Nature channels can produce some real "jaw dropping" picture quality. Lastly, I would say "Trust your eyes, Luke" - not the Force..............Rob

"Randy, I threw out the issue, but there was a test of an LCD in this month's Home Theater mag that used local dimming control and had incredible black levels...second only to pioneer's best Kuro line. I don't remember pricing or even brand (it's not on HT's website), but it might be worth picking up the magazine or at least browsing it at a news stand to see what the model and price were.... "

That was the Samsung. I also have the 6 series 52", Love it. The cheapest I've seen them is just under $2000

I received this month's issue of Home Theater yesterday and they're touting the new Sony XBR LCD as the best... though I haven't read the article yet...

...or seen the set.

Or seen PICTURES of the set....

Or seen pictures of the set's picture quality.

Or seen one of those pretty model girls standing next to the set. . .

There are other items in those pictures?

Maybe having male models next to electronics would help get more women into the hobby.

Alan (or anyone ) , could you please help me understand how DLP would perform/underperform compared to LCD and plasma. Right now, my eye is on the 67 in. Samsung because I've heard excellent things about it on these forums and abroad.

Thank you very much

I personally find the DLP's quite close to the LCD's in the way the picture is displayed. One advantage of the Samsung model that I believe you are talking about is that it is LED powered so unlike most other DLP's or LCD televisions, you won't have to replace bulbs.

Hi Cam,

DLP displays do not have motion artifacts and they are capable of excellent video quality. Typically their shadow detail and blacks aren't quite as good as plasma, more on a par with LCD. They are capable of brilliant contrasty images that are very detailed.

The bulb-driven DLPs do generate rainbow effects, which are visible to a tiny minority of viewers and may prove annoying. The newer LED-driven DLPs do not use a spinning color wheel, and so should not have any visible rainbow effects--I couldn't see any in a Samsung demo, and I taught myself to see rainbow effects when I want to. The LED light source does fire sequentially, so in theory it could produce rainbow effects, but I didn't see any.

The other downside to DLP rear-projection images is that they get dimmer when viewed from extreme angles to either side and also from a standing position.

Regards,
Alan

I've heard people tout the blacks of DLP. So it's not definitely better than LCD in that regard?

What is a standing position? If it requires standing, I'm good to go . Seriously though, I don't understand.

Cam,

My 3LCD rear pro tv has similar effects when you are at extreme angles in any direction. When sitting watching a movie, there's no problems, everything looks good, and even pretty wide angles (~45-50 degrees to a side) the TV still looks really great. Standing is pretty terrible. My tv is maybe 20-24" off the ground, perfect for watching in a seated position, but when standing up for any reason (guitar hero) the colors wash out, and sometimes even look kind of like they are a negative of whatever is displayed. It's not a major concern most of the time, and when standing, but farther away (when i'm cooking) the TV looks perfectly fine, it's just those extreme angles. does that help at all? or did i totally miss your question.

Thanks Steve, yes you did answer my question. I'm not usually guilty of Pavlov's dog, but I thought I would ask. I have read very favorable reviews/comments about Samsung DLP's and I have thought that they are better than LCDs (maybe some others could chime in). As mentioned before, the TV is next on the "upgrade list" so I haven't done any viewing whatsoever, just research online.

As the owner of a Samsung DLP hl61a750 it was my choice after 6 months of looking, buying, returning, buying, etc. Having a 60" Pioneer Kuro and 65" Panny and 65 Sharp in the house, I chose the Samsung. After a little AVS calibration it just looked better to me.

Thanks Warrant, I just saw the new 72in. Samsung for $2700 at Costco online, not a bad price if you ask me.

That is one seriously big TV...

Hey no problem, it seems rare that I can help raTHER THAN BEING HELPED. A word of caution though, the 72" is a bulb dlp whereas mine is led. My kids found the bulb unit noisy...my hearing is far enough gone to miss that. Costco seems to carry the 61" led and the Brick has the 67" led. If you aren't worried about the depth of the unit and want "big" look at the 67" led.


Darn fat fingers.

Yes, my eye has always been on the 67 in. but I couldn't find it at The Bricks website. Actually, I believe Leon's is the only distributor of the 67 in. as far as Samsung's website says, I'll have to look again at The Bricks website.

Thanks

What about Visions, that's where I got my Samsung.
Mel N.

No Visions in Ontario and I can't even imagine how much it would cost to ship a 67 or 72 inch TV!

No there isn't, interestingly enough, the 72in. DLP at Costco is $200 more the 67in. DLP at Leon's. Regarding the noise generated from the 72 in., I don't know if it would ever be audible unless the TV was on without any volume?? Does anyone know if one technology is better than the other?

Thanks

Apparently I'm an idiot, Alan clearly answered my question in his previous post

The Brick...Leon's same poop, different colour. Nice TV though.

well, looks like we are narrowing down our choices to either a 46" or 50" Panasonic Plasma 1080p with the 460hz subfield stuff (for fast moving sports/movies). The reviews I've read are wonderful on these models. Costco has a 46" for around $950 and they extend the warranty to 2 years. The 50" at costco is $1450. Sears has basically the same 50" for 1390, but you only get 1 years and they want over $400 for 3 years, what a crock.

I just negotiated a $1499 price for the Samsung PN50A650 50" Plasma at H.H. Gregg. It's gotten good reviews. It was delivered yesterday, and I'll be hooking it up when I get home next week. I'll let you know how it looks.

It was down to Samsung and Panasonic. Samsung has definately narrowed the gap on popularity with Panasonic. I think the Samsungs have more bells and whistles, but I was not seeing any technology to address fast moving sports like the Panny's. Maybe they do, but I was not able to find it...

I have never noticed an issue with sports on plasmas, only LCD's, mind you most of the sports I have watched on Plasmas has been in HD anyway which seems to not create many issues on either format from what I have seen, at least on the newer Flatscreens.

Ok, we are getting the 46" Panasonic 1080p plasma from Costco for $949.. the question I now have is when I go pick it up.

I've heard you have to keep plasmas upright? But, my dad had a technician come work on his Pioneer plasma once to replace a few boards, and he laid it down on the floor?

I have a Chevy Silverado truck, but it is cold outside and we are supposed to get an ice storm later today. I wonder if it would fit in the Honda Pilot, in the back...hmmmm

It should stay upright. Maybe you can take it out of the box?

Have someone else drive the pickup. Then you can stand in the back, during the ice storm, holding it upright.

You'd get Man Points from us HT enthusiasts.

ha ha, yeah I've read it appears to be for transporting for the most part.

As with all things that you wish to stay upright at all times, its not always practical.

Really? Oopps! I transported my Father-in-Law's plasma in my trunk on its side. It is still working 6 months later, so I guess I didn't damage it too much... Next you will tell me I shouldn't have transported my LCD in my same trunk.