Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Amp advice + M80s

I know there have various posts on this topic, but I didn't want to rebirth an old thread or hijack a current one.

Currently I have:
a pair of M-80's
Athena AS-B2 surrounds
Athena AS-C1 Center
Pioneer VSX 1015 Amp,

The Pioneer although a good amp, does not play very well with the M80s. I was playing a concert bluray today and the amp shut down. oops. So I have been reading the many threads here on the topic.

My dilemma comes down to separates or integrated?

So far I kind of prefer the Onkyo 806 with it's 5 HDMI inputs or the 906. On the other hand I could use the 806 as a pre pro and pick up a couple of amps with the money I would save over the 906. As far as amps go I was thinking Emotiva XPA3 or XPA5, or a vintage Yamaha's M-80 plus M-60.

So what do you guys think?

I don't want to restart the Emotiva thread here. I have read that thread on here as well as the Axiom thread on the Emotiva site. It seems there is alot of he said this back and forth with no clear answer.

Will the newer line of Emotiva amps drive the M-80's or not?

I vote for the denon 3808. there is a good deal on it in Canada somewhere according to the m60/ep500 or m80/ep350 thread.
Link: http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=235231&fpart=2

Basically it all comes down to what the dynamic range of the material is, the listening distance/room size, and how loud you like to listen.

And budget, of course. How much do you have to spend to power everything? I tend to recommend the best Denon or Onkyo you can afford if you want an integrated solution. The A1400-8 is plenty powerful too if you want to go nuts on separates. Also might want to keep an eye out for Outlaw's upcoming preamp: http://outlawaudio.com/products/997.html Looks like quite a package. Supposed to launch at $1399 by next month.

It's hard not to restart the Emotiva/Axiom discussion when answering your question... Bottom line, it works for some, not for others. There seems to be a greater chance of it not working with Emotiva than with others, even if the overall chance of it not working is still small. Given what I've read here on the topic, it would not be my first choice, but I have no first hand experience, just that of reading numerous accounts of "my Emotiva works, mine doesn't."

Re: 806 versus 906, it's up to you to decide whether the additional features justify the extra cost. Just focus on features and not on power as the small difference won't have any noticeable effect on sound. If you don't mind the features you give up going to the 806, that seems to be the better option between those two choices.

The last question I would ask is do you need separates... Like David said, it comes down to listening room size and how loud you listen. If you have a big room and like to absolutely jam (~100 dB, plus more for peaks), you're probably an ideal customer for separates. If you listen at moderate levels and want an amp that will just handle the peaks from there and do not have a huge room, the onboard amps of any of the receivers mentioned should be adequate.

A long post with no direct answers, sorry I can't be more definitive!

Jason

My listening is probably 80/20 movies/music. The room is 20x25 and I like to listen to movies on the loud side. I don't know spl levels.
As far as budget goes I haven't won the lottery lately...So the Axiom isn't going to happen.

Of course finding the Yamaha's is more difficult since they are no longer made.
I will check out the Outlaw amps.

The Denon is nice too. I see there are a few posters here who use these. Will it run the M-80s with the rest of a surround system?

I don't think I've heard of anyone having trouble with a 3808, other than software difficulties.

The Denon will run the system easily.

my xpa5 has run the 80's just fine for the last year running an average of 2 hours every day......And I love it!!!

cant tell you about the xpa2 because i have never used it. But from what I have read it is very "self protecting" which makes me think alot of the problems were user faults such as bad cables.... also we always hear the "problems" 1 or 2....we never hear the hundreds of others that worked fine.
I think emotiva should audition a pair of 80's to figure out if there is a problem. or axiom should do the same with the xpa2 Heck maybe I will get one just to see

My MPS1 would run my 80's for about 20 seconds before shutting down at only 95dB's from 13ft away.

I was told by Lonnie at Emotiva (as I've mentioned many times when this subject comes up) that the cause of my RPA-1 shutting down was that M80s dropped below 4 ohms in the tests that they have done with them.

Oh yeah, also that my M80's were getting hot causing the amp to shut down I believe for protection reasons, not positive though

I really wanted to like the new emotiva XPA amps given the listed specs and price. After reading the reviews of some members here I wouldn't even consider buying them for half the listed price. Emotiva amps are clearly not the answer

Bad cables?? Must elaborate so I understand. Also, I know there are some happy users in this forum with Emotiva products (I am after two instances of mine shutting down, and another instance of a blown fuse; but I'd never been buy another) but the complaints easily trump the accolades IMO.

I concur

Put me on the waiting list for the Axiom 2 channel amp.

Cam, Lonnie tried to fead be that BS line as well, until I produced a graph showing otherwise. The 80's don't dip below 4 ohm.

I agree, but I first need to be on the waiting list for the lottery

I'm still on the list too. How long is the list???

This is the waiting list to get on the waiting list.... and it seems to be pretty long!

Or buy a Rotel, yeah that's right I'm a fanboy

Aaron, you really should "know spl levels" if for no other reason than to help prevent hearing loss. If you shut the 1015 down and it wasn't related to a loose wire causing a short, it may be an indication the you were simply using too high a sound level; getting an SPL meter will let you judge this better than simply what your ears indicate. The high powered receivers with clean output of 100 watts or more which are readily available today can result in sound levels which are clean and sound pretty impressive, but which are nevertheless dangerous.

Aaron - To answer your earlier question re: the Denon, I have the 3808 as well and the only time it's ever fallen short is when I turned it to 7-channel stereo and had the volume loud enough to jam to it in my workout room 30' away and through two walls. (and yes, it was "loud" even that far away) After about 30 minutes though, it did go into protect mode (hard to fault it with that kind of demand!).

At one point I walked into my theater room briefly just to hear what it sounded like... Summary: there is absolutely no way you could ever listen to it that loud. (my room is 20x14x8) I just can't imagine needing more power than it provides in a room of approximately these dimensions.

Jason

I like my LPA-1, and have said it many times here that it works beautifully with my M80's. No problems at all.

But as others have already said, it's debatable whether any of the current Emotiva amps really work well with M80's. Certainly enough complaints to be leery. I still say that since Emotiva has a full return policy that the best choice is to order one from them and test it yourself.

Outlaw amps are supposed to be very good and won't break the bank. A pair of M2200's should do a fine job with M80's.

You can't go wrong with Rotel either.

I feel compelled to reiterate that it remains unclear to me if the problems I experienced with the the xpa2 were the fault of the amp, in fact I have to believe otherwise, because to this day (12/25/08) I continue to have problems reproducing LFEs, which were the ONLY time the xpa2 went into protect.

I am happy that I've moved on to another amp solution yet based on the scientific principle of experimental replication, there should be at least one more example of incompatibility between the XPA2 and Axiom/4 ohm speakers before any conclusions should be drawn, Lonnie's disheartening comments notwithstanding.

Nothing against you of course Terzaghi I appreciate your comments but I don't want the karma of piling on, on my account, it seems forum members were more open to emo prior to my debacle . . .

I have done a lot of reading on this forum and over at Emotiva looking for something that says yes these amps would work. Unfortunately I haven't found it yet.

The Outlaw 7125 or the Yamaha M-80 seem pretty good to me if I go the separate route. I think there is someone on this forum who uses a Yamaha for their M-80's.

I am leaning in the direction of getting an integrated AV receiver for now. Later when the itch for power comes up I can always add an amp or two. There are some good deals out there on the Onkyo 806 or the Denon 3808. I know there is a lot of love on this forum for the Denon.

Does anybody here have the 4308?

Thank you all for the great advice. I wish you all Merry Christmas and a great New Year.

I know somebody has the 4308, I just can't remember. It is basically the same as the 3808, only you pay alot more for the 3 or 4 features the 3808 lacks, Wi-Fi being the most popular reason for the 4308, from what I have read on various threads, but that is easily equalled with a wireless access point hooked up to the 3808 for far less than the cost between the 3808 and 4308.

I just had a listen to some Outlaw products, the 990 pre and the 7125(?) amp, it sounded great with icehawk27's M60s, VP150 and QS8s. It did feel warmer than my 3808 ever does though but his are in a cabinet and mine are open to the air.

HD radio is another reason people like the 4808... I think it also has one more zone possible... (up to 4 instead of 3). Note, I'm too lazy to go and confirm this all myself on Denon's site, but this is what I remember.

In my case, the tradeoff between features and price wasn't worth it, but for someone who really loves and needs wifi and HD radio, the 4808 might be the answer.

Jason

I feel the same way: the 4308 does not have an extra $1000 worth of features.

Go with a 3808 and a wireless gaming adapter if you want it to access internet radio and your music library without an ethernet cable

I just purchased a Denon 2309 and am now looking to get a good pair of front speakers and adding as I go along. I spoke to Denon ealier in the week and I thought the guy I spoke to said to try to stay with an 8ohm speaker. Has anyone had any trouble with the 4ohm load and is that why some here have had overheating problems with some amps?

I like the reviews I've read so far on Axiom speakers. Wondering how the M80's compare with the next ones down in the line.

The Denon will drive the M80s just fine, get them if that's what ya want.

It is interesting that the Denon guy would say stay with 8ohm speakers. Denon is one of the recommended brands Axiom mentions that are fine with m80's. My 5yr old Denon 2805 has never had problems with my previous m60's, or current m80's.

Bob, welcome. Yes, that's probably what the Denon rep did tell you. It appears that both amplifier and speaker manufacturers operate with what appears to be an excess of caution in this area, possibly hoping to avoid getting trashed on the internet if a problem does develop. Any amplifier, including those in receivers, can drive a speaker rated at 4 ohms without shutting down, depending on how loud and how long it's driven. Some 4 ohm rated speakers(e.g. the M80s)are actually easier than some 8 ohm speakers both from the standpoint of watts and current, since they're more sensitive. It shouldn't be assumed that there would be a problem in your use pattern; trying first results in no problem in most cases.

Thanks for the welcome and the imput guys. Also looking for some comparisons between the M60's and M80's and while we're at it how about any comparisons at all to some of the competitors speakers in these price ranges.

M80s = 100% great
M60s = 99% great
All competitors = sucks.

OK, real answer.

80s vs 60s
The M80s will play a lot louder if you have a really big room. They also deliver more detail in the mids and highs (noticably more in a/b listening but not a huge difference) and definately deliver more bass.

Vs. competitors
Well, there are a TON of speaker manufacturers out there. Did you have any particular brands in mind?

I guess I should have stated that emotiva is clearly not the answer- for me

I have heard a few too many problems with the m80/xpa2 combo for me to want to give it a try. I really have no problems with my denon 3808 though, but I would like a littel more power.

Energy RC-70
Rocket 850
Klipsch RF-82

The M-60's are closer to the price range I started out with. I don't mind paying a little extra if it is really worth it.

Is it stated anywhere on the website the history of the company or where these speakers are made?

Drivers are manufactured in China at an Axiom owned facility. The speakers are manufactured in Dwight ON.

I havn't personally heard any of the speakers mentioned. I believe the Energy's have come up before. If you go to the Water Cooler and use the Axiom Google search tool you can probably pull up the threads.

From what I have read on the Rockets, and the measurements I have seen on the older Rocket 750 and the Strata Minis (both have an elevated midrange) they will probably sound a little warmer than the M60.

The corporate info page has some history; looks like they're coming up on 30 years

http://www.axiomaudio.com/corp.html

You can see some of the older models here; the speakers were a bit ugly until Axiom started putting the drivers on the wide side of the box

http://www.axiomaudio.com/vintage.html

Try the same search Fred mentioned to search for posts with M60 and M80... you will find dozens of great comparisons between the two.

My 2 cents, if the M60s are closer to your budget and you don't have a gigantic room, you will be quite happy with them. I've heard both the 60s and the 80s (not side by side) and I found them both to be very very good.

Jason

I owned the m60's for a few years, and my room is huge, around 900 sq. ft., they were up to the challenge with no hint of distresss. The m80's do give you a little more detail and maybe a little more bass extension, but most would not know the difference unless they did a true blind A/B test.

Bob, if you've ever heard B&W's, the Axioms are similar sounding to the 703s' ($$$$$). Or I would say they are also similar to the Paradigm Studio or higher series.

I've owned Klipsch and I like the Axioms better. Can't help you on Energy or Rocket, however Tharkun (old member) had both the 80's and I think the ones above the Rocket 850's and he told me once they were very similar at most volume levels.

Two more cents: I'll point out that my old Denon 3300 pushes my PSB towers at 4-6 ohms up to 100+bd peaks, and steady at 98db with 5 channels pushing at the large setting(full range output). I have run it for hours at loud levels, and for days at lower levels, but running all channels at no problem. From what I have read, the Denon amps just have a bit more power and stability on lower ohm speakers than other AVR companies in the same price range. My AVR (7 yrs old) is rated at 105, but from the test bench results i read years back, i think the THD is solid up to only 88 watts RMS. It sounds so good I can't make myself upgrade (but HDMI is the last straw).

All of this is to say, a new Denon with 130 watts should run a 4 ohm speaker over 100db in a small to medium room without breaking a sweat - assuming quality has stayed up, as i hear it has. And while I hate to do it here, i feel compelled to say my PSB's are great if you are not sold on the Axioms. My Axiom QS8s are also great, and I would not hesitate to pair them with a Denon.

Zimm - just read your signature for the first time.

Bad Zimm, Bad!! Go stand in the corner.

As one forum member has told me that has heard Rockets and M60s the M60s are more of a wow factor, more detail, upfront. The Rockets are more laid back so you have to listen or play them, a little harder to hear the details, both are excellent speakers in their own right. Just depends on personal preferrences as to which to buy. I would suggest checking around(Hearing things forum) for some one nearby that could give demo of Axioms and then check av123 to see if someone there is nearby as well, this would help you pick the sound that you prefer. There are many good speaker companies out there, I personally feel Axiom is the best bang for the buck.

SO far as a Denon avr driving 4 ohm loads, I have had an older 1804 and now my newish 3808 both driving 4ohm loads or less for several hours at 85db or loader in my smallish room with out problems, Denons are rock solid in my books.

Hi guys, first post here!!! I've recently picked up a great deal on a Denon 2809 with a Denon 1800BD thrown in for $1100.00 Cdn. I'm now looking to pick up a 5.1 surround system and Axiom are on my (very) short list. Has anyone used the 2809 with the M80's in a 5.1 system without any problems (being 4 ohm) ? I have asked Alan about this, and he said it's ok, but I'm wondering if anyone has had any issues with the low ohmage. My owners manual says I can go to 4 ohms in stereo and 6 ohms in surround setup (which I will use). I've heard that Denon and a couple of other brands are being a conservative with their ratings however, so any input would be appreciated. Tks

Welcome, Adrian. You're Denon will work just fine with the M80s unless you have a GIANT room and like to listen at 100 dB+ levels.

Really, you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

Yo, Adrian ! (had to write that)
Welcome to the forums. Looking at the specs for the 2809, I suspect that you would be fine. Alan tends to be fairly conservative, and you can pretty much hang your hat on his ok. I would keep the impedance setting at 6 or 8 ohms. There are many Denon owners here (myself excepted) who have been very pleased and without issues driving the M80s. You have a 30-day in-home trial with Axioms and will only incur a modest cost for return shipping to Michigan in the unlikely event that you are unhappy with them.

It's not so much as Denon is being conservative as it is they use very stable and strong power supplies which are in fact more than capable of driving 4 ohm loads. I used my older 1804 to drive my M80s and it never got any warmer than it did with the M22s. You will have no problems with the 2809.

I trust that price of $1100 was for the 1800BD and not for the package otherwise that would be an unbelieveable price.

The 2 of them together are about $1250 US dollars here. I don't know the exchange rate. Sounds like a good deal to me.

I thought I got a great deal on my 2309 for $599 US. My Sharp Blu-ray got thrown into my TV deal.

Thanks for the input guys. And, Jake, yes the deal was for both! What happened was, about three weeks ago I had been to Future Shop here in Brampton and talked the salesman down to $920.00 (Cdn) on a Denon 989 which seemed like a pretty good deal. So, a couple of days later I was auditioning some Paradigm speakers at one of our local hifi's and he asked me what AVR I would be using. I told him I had just picked up the 989 at FS and he tells me..." if you haven't used it yet-take it back, I can sell you a 2809 with an 1800BD (basically free) for $1209.05 Cdn". This includes 2 yrs ext coverage on the Blue Ray, without extended coverage was $1111.00 approx. He told me this was a Denon promo and it looks to me that not a lot of hifi stores are passing along the full discount of the 1800. For ex., one of the dealers in Mississauga was selling the 2809 for, I believe, $1299 Cdn and offered the 1800 at $499 if you bought them together. Quite a difference. Same two dealers were about $500-600 difference on the speaker systems I priced. BTW, as most of you probably know, who already own Denon, the 989 and 2809 are virtually the same exc. the 2809 has the 2nd and 3rd zone control.

Bob, $599 sounds like a good deal for the 2309. I believe the exchange rate right now is around $1 US/ 1.22 Cdn approx.

SO it's the 2309 and not a 2809, not that it matters from a performance perspective, but it does make a difference on the price you bought it for. I have seen the 2309 on sale for $599, a good deal. My nephew and I were out on Boxing day and picked up a 3808 for $1380, couldn't get them down any lower.

Don't get confused!

Adrian IS talking about the 2809.

I am talking about the 2309. (I'm surprised you saw it anywhere for $599)

I jumped in this conversation basically discussing the ability (or not) of the Denon receivers being able to hadle the 4ohm load of the Axiom M80. I am very impressed by all I have seen on these speakers and I am willing to give them a serious shot. Just don't want to have any amp problems down the line. I intend to give Denon Tech Support a call tomorrow.

Just to reaffirm, yes, I bought the 2809 not the 2309, with the 1800BD together. Taxes were extra, over the price I stated of course. There are great deals out there, just have to look, and seems to be a buyers market right now. Bob, you might want to ask Alan or Brent about your Denon 2309 as well, re. 4ohms. Alan has gotten back to me with answers very quickly, I must say (tks Alan). I figured if I couldn't run the M80's, I could go for the M60's instead as they seem to be similar in sound, albeit not quite as powerfull. BTW, Bob, I emailed both Denon Cda and Denon USA about the 4 ohm question, and neither have contacted me (2 wks). I'm guessing that if the 2809 is ok with 4 ohms then your 2309 should be ok too. If you compare the specs, they are similar. the weight of both are nearly identical/with 15 watt diff output. I would ask Alan for his thoughts as well as Denon.

I need to start paying attention to who's posting

I always figured if my lowly 1804 powered the M80s anything above that would do so as well, and they do.

I called Denon on the phone last week to ask the difference between the 888 and 889 and then another call to ask the difference bwteen the 889 and the 2309. I thought they were very good on the phone. Try calling them instead of email.

Wish I could have gone for a larger receiver. Funny thing is the guys over at Orb Audio and their website offers the Denon 889 as an upgrade for a package deal. Since doing all of this research (and it's been plenty believe me) I have totally and completely discarded the idea of Orb speakers.

Jay, regarding your 3808 purchase, I believe that that promo applied to it as well. You may want to ask around some of your local hifi's and ask them about this. You might be able to get a price adjustment or possibly return and repurchase (as I did). I got this deal (AVR 2809+1800BD) on the 13th December. Hey, it's worth a shot! I can tell you where I got it from, if Axiom doesn't mind, I think they have stores across Canada-yup, just checked, they are. Maybe the promo's still on....

What is so funny? You probably have some of those cheap pure silver cables from that Buddhist Monk out of Unicornatopia. But all recent tests show his wire is crap – all papyrus marketing hype. I just read the back cover of Hi-Fi Ads Weekly and they confirm my Yttrium wire is superior. The Deaf Monk crafts them using the sharpened bones of virgin lamp-cord dealers from the mythical Homas Depoteous.

And Wikipedia confirms this:
Yttrium is a chemical element with symbol Y and atomic number 39. It is a silvery-metallic transition metal chemically similar to the lanthanoids and has historically been classified as a rare earth element.[1] Yttrium is almost always found combined with the lanthanoids in rare earth minerals and is never found in nature as a free element, unless brought fourth from a secret chant by a Deaf Monk on the third full moon of the Winter Solstice. Its only stable isotope, 89Y, is also its only naturally occurring isotope. The audio clarity of yttrium wire is also well accepted in knowledgable circles outside of Axiom forums.

I know, I know. I stood in the corner a while, but my B&W sub kept ... damn it, I did it again. Need to find a new corner...or an Axiom 7.2 setup.

Hi,

See my post in the related thread "Denon 988 and M80's". I don't want to duplicate posts.

Regards,

I am hoping some here might venture over to this site and read down page 173 to read some comments on powering M80's and please feel free to comment.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=630450&page=173

post #1569 on down

I think the real question here, Bob, is how big your room is and how loud are you going to play them? I use my M80s in a 20x19 room (with open doorways to the kitchen and hallway), and I run them on an H/K 525, which is a 75Wpc 7.1 receiver. However, I rarely exceed 80dB, more often I'm in the 70dB range. I've never had the receiver enter protect, and it's never sounded strained.

On the other hand, buying a receiver without pre-outs doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It's always nice to have the option to upgrade.

BTW, you don't need to worry about the dual tweeters/dual mids thing. It's a design decision on the part of Axiom to improve power handling (Axiom tests them with 1kW amps or something absurd like that), and I can't say I've ever noticed anything untoward in the treble from my M80s.

Ya, the boys over on AVS seem to have this idea that 4ohm speakers NEED huge power, they don't, they only require good amperage from the power supply, while this does eliminate many HTiB and low power amps, most quality manufacturers, Denon, S/N, Nad, etc., seem to be able to drive 4 ohm loads, at least M80s, through out their entire line ups. AS I have mentioned many times, I ran my M80s with my lower end Denon 1804 and it sounded as good as the 3808 does, it never shut down and I was able to hit 100dbs with the lowly Denon/M80 combo.

Bob, what is your concern? The m80's are a very easy to drive 4 ohm speaker that do not dip below 4ohms across the frequency range. They are also very efficient, only requiring 1 watt for 95dB's at 3ft distance. Not sure what your concerns are...

In regards to 2 tweeters/2 midrange, that is not an issue either for most people, at least the ones that want what they are hearing to be true to the source. If you want a "laid back" or "muffled" sound speaker, Axiom is not for you.

Maybe you should consider m60's, they filled my 900 sq ft room fine before I got the m80's

Bob, took a look and my impression is that some of the posters there, Krunch in particular, don't show an awareness of how amplification works. A "moderate" level with the M80s uses 1 watt or a bit less. It's total nonsense to throw out comments like that about the 2309.

Yes the dual tweeters and midrange is a somewhat unusal configuration but so is the B&W tweeter mounted on top of the speaker and the Nautilus series with its unusal designs. The idea behind the dual mids is that the cone surface area is the same as a much larger driver ala Paradigms 7" mid range, only the dual 5.25's are able to move a little faster as there is less mass to move, they also require less energy to move them. This is no different of a philosophy than the multiple woofers almost everyones uses in floor standers. As far as the dual tweeters, I think they just add more detail, makes it easier to hear that upper end, that is usually covered up by the larger sound of the other multiple drivers it has.

Hi Everyone,

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

Although I don't have any recent experience in home stereo, I managed to put something pretty sweet together back in the day AND we didn't have computer forums back then. I enjoy these discussions immensely!

I believe I may have stated (or maybe in another forum) I play guitar for a long time and did a LOT of research in more recent years and bought a fairly high quality PA System for a band situation (that seems to have such a hard time getting off the ground)

See http://www.myspace.com/themilestoneband

Anyway, I happen to understand, somewhat, about ohm matching as well as some forgiveness in exact matching in some instances. Any amp will work optimally when matched with a speaker ohm load and most amps WILL run above their normal operating temperatures when run outside of their recommended speaker load. My concerns happen to be valid. I have mentioned that I have already discussed this with Denon Tech Support and well as having all of the real world experience of so many of you and I appreciate all the patience. I already knew some what some of your responses to that other forum's posts would be. My question over there was for a direct comparison in a side by side review (hopefully unbiased)

I also understand speaker efficiency. ANY speaker that can be pushed with a minumum of 10 watts and a maximum of 400 watts speaks for itself. I have NO DOUBT that a 100 watt per channel amp will have NO PROBLEM pushing these speakers to a very impressive yet comfortable volume. (I'm not a kid in a R&R band anymore

I remember when I auditioned my ADS L810's 26 years ago. Subs were coming on the seen a bit but it was a known fact back then that a bigger woofer produced more bass. Having a speaker with 2-8" speakers produce better bass than the single 12" woofer didn't make sense. I understood that the 8's would react quicker. I was made to understand that with music reproduction that you would want a more natural sounding bass vs. a boomier bottom. The M60's more probably be a better fit estically as well as the room size that I plan to put them in. Athough the ADS speakers I had sounded great in the store and sounded great in my house, I always felt that they could have used more bottom end. I would prefer not to get that bottom for music through a sub especially HT subs that strive to get that house shaking rumble. (And I sure do WANT a sub down the road that will do a decent job rumbling my house for movies) All of the reviews and first hand experience tells me to go for the M80's for the bass response. It would be great to hear the M60's and M80's side by side but I feel I already know who would be the clear winner.
I do actually have a concern with the speaker placement in this room. The TV is caddy-corner and the back of the left speaker will be against the wall. The balance should come with the right speaker having no wall behind it for 10 feet. It certainly is far from ideal. At this point in my life I only want to buy one more time.

So sorry for the long post. I just wanted to take the time to thank everyone for taking the time to answer me as well as so many others who come here.

PS. I had no idea that my receiver didn't have pre-outs. I will look into that.

I could be wrong but it is my understanding that every test is performed using 1 watt. I believe it is an industry standard. I believe that the idea is how many db's and what spl and at what total harmonic distortion is a speaker while using 1 watt to produce sound. The higher the db rating at 1 watt, the more efficient the speaker and the less power you nees to drive it. There should be an industry standard for a THD percentage to create an even playing field for power ratings.

If that is right, some of you need to aquire a better understanding of the 1 watt thing from some of the answers. If the above is wrong, maybe someone could point us all to a good article explaing 1 watt testing.

That would be for the speaker efficiency ratings, they are done at 1W/1M away. so 92db rating is it plays at 92 db with 1 watt measured 1 meter away.

You might be surprised by a good sub crossed over correctly. You don't have to shake the house. (But that is fun too!) The fact is, your speakers will drop off at some point - I know you know this, but - and a well-set sub will only produce music as intended by the live instruments starting at the range you select. For instance, I cross my sub at 30HZ and have the power barely up. It provides the bottem end my full range towers start to be lose. i often have to check that it is on. But once I turn it off, i instantly know that bottom end of Jazz strings is too light, and punch of rock drums lacks the weight I recall from the live venue.

On movies, flip the swith and let the studio use your sub at will (by by-passing the internal x-over). Shake that house like a bomb should!

Point is, it is not the sub that shakes the house...it is how you set the sub that shakes the house. Turn up the gain and cross over at 100hz and yes, you will hear that puppy bounce. Set it nice and tight, and you get full range, nothing more. Keep some small speakers and get a solid sub if you like your current L/R. My two cents.