 Using Two! Centre Channels...
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I thought I would throw this one out there, after reading several posts on the 'phantom' centre thread. A number of you guys have chosen to use two centre channels so I was wondering what made you decide to go this route and what are your conclusions are so far, in retrospect vs a single centre speaker? 
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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If you have a large screen, a single center channel can make the dialog sound like it's coming from the edge of the screen instead of from the middle. Two center channels, located above and below, will fix that problem.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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I have played with this idea for a while, since I have a six channel amp in a 5.1 system. I have a 130" plus screen and really don't notice the sound not comming from the screen.
The cool thing about the VP150 is it's tappered. So I got great results by putting the 150 up side down. This angles the drivers up towards the listening positions.
However, there are other people here that have two center speakers and are very happy with the results. Some even have gone with a VP100 and VP150 combo.
I think that is cool.
paul
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Also, keep in mind Adrian that if you have two 6ohm center channel speakers in parrallel, you will then have a 3ohm load on the receiver.
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Sirquack is very correct here. You better be armed with the right hardware to do this. Your reciever should have an extra channel that is not being used. Or, if you are using a separate processor, it should have inputs for 2 center channel speakers (like my Rotel RSP1066). I don't like to "splice" in my HT setup. Very bad things can happen!
pn
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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I was asking more out of curiousity as to the benefits of such an arrangement but it's not for me for two reasons, well three maybe, I only have a 52" screen, dropping to 3 ohms is quite likely an issue and I simply wouldn't need the second centre. I see that Axiom does in fact have double centres in a couple of their HT packages. If I had a 130 inch screen, maybe. I've seen some HT's on here where guys have chosen two vs one centre, so I was more curious than anything.
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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I have two M2s hooked up in series as centers. I did a lot of reading on center channels and learned that the best speaker configuration for any speaker, including the center is vertically aligned speakers. It gives better off axis performance. I think it also does a better job of centering the dialog on the screen, or at least makes it a lot easier to do so. For the price of a center, 2 M2s seemed like a good idea. Seems to work just fine. P.S. having a vertical center over your display is good for extra manpoints as well. 
Fred
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Fred, what kind of ohmage would you be dealing with going with the 2 M2s ? how many manpoints is an M80 centre worth?
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Two 8ohm speakers (M2's) in parallel is a 4 ohm load. No different than having an M80 on a channel. Don't know how many man points an M80 would be.
Fred, You got any pics of that setup?
Last edited by BoB/335; 01/26/09 04:04 AM.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Fred, what kind of ohmage would you be dealing with going with the 2 M2s ? how many manpoints is an M80 centre worth? 6 ohms because its in series. If I hooked them up in parallel it would be 3 ohms. Edit: Bob is correct. For some reason I thought that the M2 was 6 ohms. If its upside down over your display it gets you an instant mancard platinum. 
Last edited by fredk; 01/26/09 04:26 AM.
Fred
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Sorry! No WAF points there. Nice picture on that TV. Also I am really pretty darn sure that two 8ohm speakers in parallel is a 4ohm load.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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No W, points not needed. I would think my setup would be worth major doghouse pounts if I were attached. The HTPC is in an old ATX case that I havn't bothered putting the sides back on, cables everywhere...
I will eventually clean things up, but until car sales pick up again (not this year!) things are tight.
Fred
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Fred if your running two 8 ohm M2s in series wouldn't that be a 16 ohm load on the receiver, if you ran them in parallel that would be a 4 ohm load.
Just curious why you chose to wire them in series?
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Fred if your running two 8 ohm M2s in series wouldn't that be a 16 ohm load on the receiver, if you ran them in parallel that would be a 4 ohm load.
Just curious why you chose to wire them in series? I agree.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Rick, you could be right. I really do not understand that part of electronics very well. I put them in series becasue someone here said that was the better way to go (to avoid another 4ohm load I think).
Does it really matter?
Fred
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Fred, from another site....
When adding two speakers in series it will increase the ohms.
When adding two speakers in parallel it decreases the ohms.
In series, when increasing the ohms, your amp will not put out the power it is rated at. 100w at 8 ohms may only be 60w at 16 ohms.
Parallel. If you go below the ohms your amp is rated to run safe at, it will burn out your amp.
I thought most folks wired in parallel, that's how I did my two center channels, I believe wired in series the speakers can clip easier due to the amp not supplying the sufficient power. I believe we're talking about really putting the power to the speakers though, I don't know how high of dB's you like to listen.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Yes, when two speakers of the same impedance are connected in series the resulting impedance is the sum of their impedances; when connected in parallel the impedance is half of the individual speaker impedance(the calculation is more complex when more than two speakers, or those having different impedances are involved). Of course simply using the nominal rated impedances doesn't give a complete picture of the result, since the impedance can vary widely at different frequencies. For example, my M22s drop to about 3 ohms in one frequency range, which is lower than the M80s ever get.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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John in your estimation is one preferred over the other, regarding series or parallel wiring of home speakers?
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Sure, wiring in parallel makes the speakers easier to drive because of the lower resulting impedance. There's a limit to this in that if the higher current that results from the lower impedance causes overheating, the protective circuits will shut the amplifier down.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Since we all like photos...and since I always get confused as to which is which...AND before someone else asks.... how is this? (If it isn't 100% clear, offer suggestions and I'll replace it!)
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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The amp won't overheat with a 16ohm load?
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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I made one of these a few years ago, too.  
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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But mine has big colored Wyres!
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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I sketched one on paper...
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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I figure someone here has used a couple of M22s instead of a single VP150 (a little more $ but not much). I wonder if someone were to use such a setup, would it be better to use the 22s horizontally with the tweeters in the central position...flank position(tweeters out)...or better to stand them upright side/side tweeters up?
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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I'm sorry, Adrian, we've already had that question within the allotted 3 month window. Please try back another time. Short of it, the verticals are better than the horizontals.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Are you saying 2x M22s are better as a centre than a single VP150, Ken ? just curious as to how they compare, this is something I never really considered when I ordered the 150.
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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No, I'm not sure about that. But 2 vertical M22s are better than 2 horizontal M22s. At least that's the accepted wisdom around here. Mr. Crazy Center Channel (Jay) will be along shortly to tell you I'm wrong. And since he's actually tried this stuff, who am I to argue?
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Are you saying 2x M22s are better as a centre than a single VP150, Ken ? Who's Ken? (OK, maybe it's getting old!) The looks of the VP150 or any center channel for that matter looks way better and has a good WAF. Axiom uses the same speakers and tweeters as their mains I believe.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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The looks of the VP150 or any center channel for that matter looks way better and has a good WAF That is one of the big 'whys' of center channels. They are inobtrusive and can fit under a display and for that they sacrifice some sound quality. For many thats a good tradeoff.
Fred
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Someone needs to make The Audio Kama Sutra.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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wouldn't it be a bunch of moaning?
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Quite possibly some creaking, some joints popping, that sort of thing.
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With a random "ow. Ow. OW! I don't think it's supposed to bend that way" thrown in.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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And yodeling?
What. . . ? You mean you don't??
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I skip the yodeling and bring out my alphorn.
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Yeah, I have to bring out my shoehorn. . .
***********
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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I figure someone here has used a couple of M22s instead of a single VP150 (a little more $ but not much). I wonder if someone were to use such a setup, would it be better to use the 22s horizontally with the tweeters in the central position...flank position(tweeters out)...or better to stand them upright side/side tweeters up? I’m running two M22’s as my center. Can’t tell you if that is any better than a VP or not though. I did try them vertically and horizontally positioned. I prefer them vertical. Every once in a while I think about buying two VP’s and mounting them above / below my screen, but that’s pretty low on my list of things to buy.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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I figure someone here has used a couple of M22s instead of a single VP150 (a little more $ but not much). I wonder if someone were to use such a setup, would it be better to use the 22s horizontally with the tweeters in the central position...flank position(tweeters out)...or better to stand them upright side/side tweeters up? Here is a link to the thread: http://axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=180243&fpart=1
Jason
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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I finally had a chance to look at the purdy pictures a few pages back. I have my speakers wired in the parallel kind of series.  I'm gonna go wire a house or something now...
Fred
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OK, but whose was purdier?
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
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I finally had a chance to look at the purdy pictures a few pages back. I have my speakers wired in the parallel kind of series. I'm gonna go wire a house or something now... Make sure the owner has home owner's insurance!
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Thanks for the link, Jay...very informative, it's interesting you guys liked the two horizontal M22s (TWWWWT). This is in fact almost the same as the VP150 with one less W, so it's understandable when you think about it.
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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The Horizontal M22s, being ported, had a little fuller low end, IIRC. They sounded a little warmer, I believe that is the 'something' the VP150 is missing.
Jason
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Do you think being "warmer" is good or bad re. the centre, as it's main purpose is to support dialogue correct?
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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Jay
When you tried this, were the M22's touching eachother. Did you try to separate them at all (a few inches to a few feet)?
paul
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Do you think being "warmer" is good or bad re. the centre, as it's main purpose is to support dialogue correct? Uh oh! Adrian are you ready to change your order? Once mine gets here all eyes will be on you.
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Well...the thought of using a pair of M22s never really occurred to me until recently. I'll blame you guys for that, because you started questioning the need for a centre at all!! Because the centre's primary function is to support dialogue I would have thought "warmer" may work against this set-up. Yes, no? Oui? Non?
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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I liked it better with the dual M22's, it was still as clean for dialogue but I felt it was a little more dynamic as it could reach a little lower. I may have to set it up again a try it out some more. I guess the ultimate would be dual M80s set up like this 
Jason
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Stop putting dangerous ideas in my head, Jay! 
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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All you have to do is change your order - add 2 M80's, try them as centres and keep them if you like the way it sounds 
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Guys, guys, hang on here before you do anything rash. The VP150 is an awsome center channel speaker. Probably the best I have ever heard next to the B$W HTM7 at more thatn 2 times the price. I have never heard 2 M22's, so I can't comment. But I would be very very supprised if either of you thougt the VP150 was lacking at all.
Also remember, Axiom designed the VP150 as a center channel and includes it in the Epic packages. If they thought you'd be better off with 2 M22's, they'd put those in the Epic packages instead and scrap the VP 150.
paul
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Nope, haven't done anything rash Paul....excuse me while I answer the phone...."yes...Hello Noreen!yes, that's an additional pair of M80s on my order last week.... uhuh, just add that to my Visa....OK! thanks...Bye,bye!"....uh where was I?
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paul
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Nope, haven't done anything rash Paul....excuse me while I answer the phone...."yes...Hello Noreen!yes, that's an additional pair of M80s on my order last week.... uhuh, just add that to my Visa....OK! thanks...Bye,bye!"....uh where was I? Could you add something for me on your Visa also?
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OP
axiomite
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,928 |
I will always offer you bad advice for free, Bob!
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420 |
It's not so much the VP150 is lacking, as it is there are better soultions out there, provided you have the space and money to do it. The VP150 does a very good at what it was designed to do. I feel the dual M22's do it better. Will I run dual M22's? Not in my room's present configuration. Are dual M22 worth the extra expense? Maybe for some.
I still feel the best center is an identical speaker to the mains or as close to it as possible, when I ran an M60 as a center with the M80s, it was an incredible experience. I wish I had the room for one.
Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,210
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,210 |
I tried a couple of 60s side by side as centers, dialogue was absolutely outstanding but the PQ suffered tremedously, to the point that I had to put that idea on the back burner and moved on to the 150/100 combo above and below the screen ... I've been very happy every since. It's going to be more fun than a barrel of monkeys around these parts whenever Adrian and Bob gets their systems delivered, heck, now I'm getting anxious.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,928
axiomite
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OP
axiomite
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,928 |
It's going to be more fun than a barrel of monkeys around these parts whenever Adrian and Bob gets their systems delivered, heck, now I'm getting anxious. Be careful what you wish for!!
Last edited by Adrian; 01/27/09 10:49 PM.
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16 |
I tried a couple of 60s side by side as centers, dialogue was absolutely outstanding but the PQ suffered tremedously, to the point that I had to put that idea on the back burner and moved on to the 150/100 combo above and below the screen ... I've been very happy every since.
That's why I went with the 22's instead of another M80. They're just a wee bit too tall to fit under the screen..... 
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 505
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 505 |
WOW!!!! Nice room and set-up!
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,786
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,786 |
It's not so much the VP150 is lacking, as it is there are better soultions out there, ... Are dual M22 worth the extra expense? That is exactly why I chose the dual M2s. The give the advantage of a vertical center and deliver significant bottom end extension for almost the same price as the VP100.
Fred
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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,786
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,786 |
Damn thats a nice HT room! ::runs into HT cave crying::
Fred
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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 738
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 738 |
OK, so what I don't understand is if 2 single bookshelf speakers, M22's, in this case, yields more desierable results, why does Axiom and other speaker companies push for a single odd shapped center channel speaker like the VP150 that can only every be used for that purpose? Especially if the cost is near the same.
Nowere in the Axiom advertizing or any other speaker companies marketing that I have seen recommends two bookshelf speakers for the center.
I am not saying you guys are wrong, far from it. To me its a very logical path.
I just don't understand???
paul
paul
Axiom M80, VP180, Qs8, EP500
Epson 3020
Rotel RB-880
Denon AVR-990
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044 |
It's a lot easier to place a horizontal speaker than it is two extra vertical ones.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 738
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 738 |
I though of that, but that may have been true 5 to 10 years ago, but today with lots and lots of people having dedicated HT rooms. I don't know if that's a good reason anymore.
paul
Axiom M80, VP180, Qs8, EP500
Epson 3020
Rotel RB-880
Denon AVR-990
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044 |
Excuse me while I blow a giant raspberry in your direction, as a representative of those without dedicated HT rooms.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 738
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 738 |
Sorry, I didn't mean to hit a nerve.
paul
Axiom M80, VP180, Qs8, EP500
Epson 3020
Rotel RB-880
Denon AVR-990
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044 |
No, no problem, it's just that I'M LIVING IN ONE OF THE MOST EXPENSIVE PLACES IN THE US AND I CAN'T MOVE OUT OF MY FRIGGIN' RENTAL. Excuse me. Ahem.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,458
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,458 |
It's OK, Calvin.
We're all backing away nice ans slow-like, you see?
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16 |
Ya CALVIN, settle down. You're scaring us...
So is CALVIN your middle name or what?
......man I'm gunna have fun with this the next few months.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 505
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 505 |
Excuse me while I blow a giant raspberry in your direction, as a representative of those without dedicated HT rooms. Thanks for the representation!
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,928
axiomite
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OP
axiomite
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,928 |
I'm beginning to wonder why I started this thread...I just measured the shelf on my TV stand and it's practically MADE to fit a pair of M22s!! mind you, they would be sitting kind of low. People who've tried this,(I know Jay did, anyone else?)were the M22s right up to each other end-to-end, or were they separated slightly?
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,654
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,654 |
Paul, as I've commented on numerous occasions here during the past seven years, there appears to be no reason for the horizontally configured center speaker other than an aesthetic conviction that it looks better than a small vertical speaker there. Acoustical "design" considerations would argue against them. A vertical orientation of at least the tweeter and mid-range speakers gives wider and smoother horizontal dispersion(even turning an MTM center upright can also show this). Note that some large center speakers which are configured in a W T/M W manner can be interpreted as a small vertical speaker with woofers on each side.
-----------------------------------
Enjoy the music, not the equipment.
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420 |
Adrian, I seem to remember separating the M22s and the sound was not quite as uniform, a bit of a gap in the sweetspot, but I will have to try it out again to verify.
Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
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Re: Using Two! Centre Channels...
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,928
axiomite
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OP
axiomite
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,928 |
I just started a thread "should I change the VP150 to M22s" a minute ago. I'm sure Axiom would swap (+diff $) them given I'm 3 wks away from pick-up.
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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