Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Receiver choice

I am still teetering between the w22's in a 7.2 system vs. the m80's in a 7.2 for a fairly large room (28' long, 18' wide, 11' height). I really like the on wall look to keep the room clutter free, but may miss the punch given by the m80's.

For this threat, my question is....for the m80's, would my Denon 2805 suffice? I don't mind upgrading...if so, which specific Denon, Rotel and Marantz model would you guys recommend?

Thanks for the info!!!

Parin, the same sort of answer as always applies to such a question: your 2805 has a quite powerful amplifier in it which should be sufficient for the vast majority of home audio uses. Whether it would be in your particular case depends on how far away you sit, the loudness level you use, the dynamic range of the material you play, etc. A problem shouldn't be assumed before trying.

I have a 2309 that I will be using with M80's, VP150, and QS8's. I've been assured many times that the Denon receiver works well for M80's. My room is smaller than yours. I'm sure most here will say to go with the M80's in your size room. You can also give Axiom a call. They are very helpful.

Parin, I believe I mentioned in your other threads that I've had a 2805 for that last 4-5 years. It drives 80's just fine. The problem is that it is a little outdated on other technologies. It does not have HDMI switching, or any of the new HD decoding for bluray, plus a few other things...

If later you decide you need more power, most unlikely, you can always get an amp and use the 2805 as a pre-amp for the left/right channels. It is rated at 100 watts, so getting a new receiver with say 110-140 watts is not going to get you much more volume, maybe another dB or so. The new receivers will give you more up to date options.

Ok...guess I am a bit old school here. I have a DVD player and it is wired directly to my TV. In the new house, I plan on a having a projector. Wont the Blu ray player be wired to the projector? What would HDMI switching and decoding offer me? Is it worth the upgrade?

Still, though....any recommendations on a receiver between $1-2k (denon, rotel, marantz).

Thanks for all the help!

The video will be routed to the projector, the sound will be routed to the receiver. A receiver that has HDMI will allow you to hook multiple pieces of equipment (dvd player, ps3, etc.) to the receiver, then you only have to worry about 1 cable going from the receiver to the projector.

And you don't have to switch your Video sources and Audio sources separately....

Thanks!

So which receiver do you guys recommend in the $1-2k range?

3808

The 3808 is certainly the flavor of the year around here, The Sherwood Newcastle 972 is supposedly to be finally released this year and by the latest reports very soon, it should be worth waiting for. The Onkyo 8 series and 9 series are also worth a look.

Call Axiom as they had shown (on the owners club) that W80's were on there way so you'll have the best of both worlds.

Well, if your walls are about 2 feet deep.

It was a T80 not W series.

Which Marantz is comparable to the Denon 3808? Does the Marantz sound better?

receivers don't "sound" different.

I bet they make different noises if you drop them. Also, if you drop one on your foot, you might make a sound, too.

If one doesn't give out better sound, what is the point of paying more for a marantz or rotel?

The name, features etc, possibly slightly better specs here and there, ie crosstalk, THD at max volume etc., but usually none of it makes a bit of audible difference.

FWIW, Marantz is made by the same company as Denon.

A "high end" audio store I visited told me my Denon was on the "bright side". I think I mentioned my concern with a bright speaker through a bright receiver in a bright room. (hardwood floors, leather couch, loveseat, and chair, and ventian blinds) Not much sound absorbtion. I happened to have bought a throw rug last night. My wife loves it. I told her I had to get something before my speakers get here. (That's right. There still not here yet!)

Was the salesman 'bright'!!! Bob, I've heard Denon receivers described as "neutral", I've heard them described as "bright" and I've heard them described as "warm". But most of all, I'm waiting for my speakers too, so I haven't heard them at all!!

Anyone here dealt with the Sonos for audio distribution? I use my computer mostly to play music.

Always look on the bright side of lhi-fi.

:::whistles:::

Life's a piece of sh&^, when you look at it....

I'm surprised to hear people say that. I mean there are component level difference that can affect the sound. Weaker DSPs, inefficient transformers, crappy implementation of codecs. Isn't this one of the reasons why (legitimate) size and weight was a consideration in the non-digital days? Heat generation/ dissipation was a huge consideration in amplifier design. It's been ages since my classes, but poor implementation certainly would affect the sound.

No, only a failure to amplify with flat frequency response from 20-20KHz and inaudibly low noise and distortion would affect the sound. This is the bottom line, there isn't anything else, and the design considerations to achieve it can vary as long as the results are there. These days the great thing for us is that it's routinely accomplished by receivers available for a few hundred dollars. Claims to a contrary(and plentiful helpings of BS by some manufacturers)abound of course, but they collapse when put to a properly controlled double-blind listening test.

John, I agree that power amplifers with in a certain price range will sound the same (or not sound at all). But A receiver is a whole diffrent animal than a power amplfier.

Receivers are made of 3 parts, amplifer, pre-amplfier, and processor. The variables within the last two can have an effect on sound quality. Depending on the design (signal path), preamplifer components and D/A converts used.

To say that a 5 year old $300 Technics or Sony receiver will sound as good as a current $2500 Rotel, Arcam, or Denon is really stretching it (assuming power reatings are equal).

Your thoughts?

paul

Paul, it's not really stretching it, though. The primary reason people should be concerned with buying a separate power amplifier is if they listen to dynamic music loudly on a regular basis. With certain speakers -- M80s being one of those -- loud passages can take an underpowered amp into clipping and that definitely affects the sound negatively.

D/A converters are a mature technology -- and were even 5 years ago -- so unless they're specifically designed to alter the digital source, they will all be next to impossible to distinguish between in real listening tests.

Many people will claim to hear a difference between high-end amp A and common receiver B until they're asked to prove it in a properly controlled scenario.

So with the M80's, which would you recommend:

Denon 3809 vs. Marantz SR8002 vs. Rotel RSP - 1560

I would need to upgrade my 2805 Denon for the HDMI inputs/outputs anyways. If I did go with one of the above, you would still recommend I get a separate amplifier? We never listen to load music. We would watch movies, once a month or so.

All are a fine choice. Pick the one that gives you the features you want for a price you're willing to pay.

Personally, I like the look of the Denon best.

I agree with Peter... though there's no 3809. I think you mean the 3808 or 2809?

Paul, you might want to read this...

http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

I would think, there is a 3809 in the works isn't there? the last two numbers are for the year the model came out correct?

I asked the same question here a couple of months ago before buying, and was told that since the 3808 is "upgradeable", there weren't plans for a 3809.

I don't think the model numbers correspond with year...though I might be wrong. I believe, for instance, that the 2809 has been out for quite awhile. Of course, they might do the same as auto manufacturers and introduce model years early???

I wonder if the same goes for my 2809?

I can see Paul's point and would agree with him based on my very little knowledge of electronics, he's not saying the amplifier portion of the receiver is coloring the sound but the pre and processing elements of the receiver can color the sound ... thus the reason there could be a difference in sound between a dedicated amp and a receiver. The above article is only comparing amps to amps, not amp/processors to receivers.

how about the Denon 2809 vs. 3808? For the average user (powering the m80's) do I need to pay the extra for the 3808?

Both will power the M80s, the 3808 has a bit more power and some other features on it. (I have 2809, waiting on M80s)

Also, if I remember correctly the 2809 does not have pre-outs if you ever decide to add an additional amp ... which may, or may not be a concern.

Yes, it does. I was just on Denons' site so I looked it up...

That's the 2309, Rick (no pre), the 2809 has them.

I'm sorry Mark, my bad ... it was the 2309 I was looking at a little while back that didn't have the pre-outs. Thanks for the heads up Adrian!

I remember a few weeks ago, we were discussing this with Bob who bought the 2309. We were both wanting to know about the 4 ohm/M80 thing. Geez, the senior guys on this forum must be long tired of that subject by now, eh?

Oh, yeah.

Those of us that have been around for awhile pretty much do NOTHING but talk about how we hate new guys!

:D....errr....

Damn I hate new guys.

Wait, did I say that out loud?

Yeah, and you were even logged in under your real identity, not as your alter ego, bbigwyres.

Shocking, Calvin.

looks like the 2809 is a winner. thanks for everyone help!

If I buy the 2809, I would still have a on old 2805. I could probably use the 2809 for the fronts and the 2805 for the rest of the system, right?

I think your over-thinking the power needs of the M80s. They're very efficient (sensitive) speakers...

The 2809 should be fine, unless you have a HUGE room or really, really, crank it (in which case your old receiver won't do much good and you'll be wanting to add a 200~300 watt amp).

Use the 2809 for all and sell the 2805. By the way, pay no attention to the 'audiopiles' behind the curtain.

The RCA dog left them...

Hey....C'MON!

THAT was funny!!!

Actually DSP's do make a difference. The ability to handle more than one tasks is what can set them apart. I'm 100% in agreement that 99.9999% of the people would not be able to tell one amplifier to another. I also maintain that any decent speaker would not be distinguishable in an A/B test.

But Marantz's DSP for example, cannot handle TrueHD, DTS-MA *and* apply Audyssey room correction. Denon's DSPs can. Some AVRs do an improper job of boosting LFE by 10dB do to FW bugs. So when you take an AVR (not just the amplifier portion) as a package, one can (and do) sound different. It may have to do with FW bugs, DSPs that lack horsepower etc, but to an end user it will "sound" different.

(By AVR Package, I mean all the features that come with it)

Is this mistyped?

I certainly hope so.

If not, time for another 100 posts on the subject

Paul and Hansang, no the pre-amplifier doesn't create any sonic signature in competently designed units; its 12-15dB of gain is an even simpler technological task than that of the amplifier. As to the processor section, of course any feature such as tone controls, ambience processing, room equalization, etc., whose purpose is to change the sound will do so when turned on. But that almost never is what those who claim to hear sonic colorations in different receivers are talking about. The claim, without factual support, is that there's some mysterious inherent audible characteristic which usually would have to involve a substantial frequency inaccuracy(e.g., the "bright" Yamaha and the "warm" Marantz), independent of any processing feature chosen by the user. Unless there're substantial measurable differences there can't be audible ones, and there aren't.

John, is it a possibility that on some older receivers like my Scott 335,circa 1985 or so, that there might be any difference in sound because there is no audio direct buttons and that perhaps things such as the treble and bass may not be totally taken out of the picture. Also, there is a subsonic button on the unit which seems to really make a difference when hooked up to my M80's as opposed to my M3's. Not looking for an argument on the issue, just curious. My old Scott at 35 watts per channel sure made my M80's sound good, and took them to uncomfortable levels without any distortion that my untrained ears could hear. Only listening at 10 feet from the speakers. Although it did sound great at about 30 feet away while listening in the kitchen. Just not as loud.

Ed, sure something like tone controls which don't actually give a flat frequency response at their center position would change the sound. But again, that would be a measurable difference which doesn't exist in well-designed units.

Thought so John. Thanks for the clarification. All my newer receivers seem to have what I consider the same sound. Just different levels on their dials to get to that point. Thankfully there are SPL meters to let us test the levels and make the comparisons.

Good points, Hansang, and I agree. I'll just add that the quality and type of the power supply, circuits, op-amps, chips, boards,wiring, analog connectors, caps all affect sound quality, which can often be audible especially in receivers or pre-amps. How well each amp, pre-amp or receiver has been designed to handle and dissipitate heat will also impact sound. Electro-mechanical characteristics of audio components are greatly affected by heat.

One other thing. Linear frequency response and low distortion are very important however those two parameters alone do not ensure optimum sound reproduction. Ask any designer and he will tell you there are many considerations in designing a great receiver, pre-amp or amp. And each designer has a unique vision for the component and sense for what compromises are necessary in order to achieve that vision. Accordingly, not all components including receivers are created equally or sound the same. The old advice of listening to a component in your home if you can and trusting your ears still applies.

It was.

Well hello there Mr. Jakeman, a couple of us has been wondering where you ran off to ... glad to see you back John!

Thanks Rick. It's fun being here and always a welcome distraction.