Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Stereo Speaker Advice

Hi all,

I'm in the process of putting together a "music first, home theatre second" setup and could use some advice.

I've recently purchased an Onkyo TX-SR606 receiver and would like to pair it with either:
A) a pair of bi-amped M80s
B) a pair of bi-amped M60s and a pair of M22s

The reason I'm contemplating the M60 + M22 setup is I don't want to compromise the audio fidelity I can get with the M80s but I don't know if this receiver has the power to run the M80s adequately. (I read a forum post from Mojo stating the M60s lack some of the mids and highs that make the M80s shine, but pairing them with M22s really open them up)

Later on I will spec out the rest of a 5.1 setup with either M2s or QS8s and a VP150. Maybe an SVS sub...

Do you think the M60s or M80s will sound good with this receiver or am I trying to power a Porsche with a Lada engine?

Thanks,
Chris.

How do you plan to bi-amp? Unless your doing it correctly, I would not waste your time.

M22s+M60s will present a 4 ohm load, just like the M80s. How were you planning to hook this all up?

I experimented with M82s and found the modest improvement over M60s alone to not really be worth the hassle (in my room, anyway). I wound up trading in the 60s for 80s. On the other hand, I liked the M22s so much I kept them for my computer set-up.

First, the "bi-amp" on the 606 uses the internal amp for the rear channels. Complete waste of time, but do what you want. It won't hurt (and it won't help).

Second, I decided to go with the M60's over the 80's due to my Onkyo 705's aversion to 4 ohm speakers. The 606 is the same.

Finally, I often listen to music with just my mains (no sub) using the "Pure Audio" mode. They sound terrific.

Chris, welcome. If the "bi-amping" that you mention is simply hooking up the back surround channels to the mains, forget it. This isn't biamping and is still limited by the available power from the one power supply section in the receiver. Available maximum power isn't doubled, as some imagine, or increased in any amount.

As to whether this available power would be enough for your use with M80s, this would depend on how hard and for how long you work it. In most cases it should be sufficient for the M80s, which are slightly more sensitive than average and require less power than many other speakers, whether rated at 8 ohms or 4 ohms. Factors such as your listening distance, sound level you use and dynamic range of the material you play are key factors.

Darn. My cover is blown. (I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to audio equipment) The bi-amping I was referring to was indeed with the rear channels of the 606 receiver. I guess it would be a waste of time...

I didn't know Onkyo receivers don't play well with 4 ohm speakers... I guess that limits my choices to the M60s or M22s with a sub. Thanks for the info!

I've come to realize the bi-amping thing via the receiver isn't worth while. Thanks for the explanation as to why.

Dewd mentioned that Onkyo receivers don't work well with 4 ohm speakers. Are there any Onkyo/M80 owners out there that managed to get them to play nicely together? I've heard that the M60s have slightly subdued mids and highs compared to the M80s which have a more balanced overall sound. I don't want to look back with any regrets so I'm open to suggestions to all you knowledgeable forum folk out there in Axiomville...

My room is approximately 25 ft across by 15 ft deep but the entertainment centre is offset to the left side of the room. I can re-arrange things once I get a game plan going. I won't be "rocking out" very often so music levels will be kept to nominal levels...

Cheers,
Chris.

Chris, you say you've "just purchased" the 606, which I understand has no pre-outs. Why not consider returning it and finding a receiver with pre-outs, you may not find it necessary if you listen to moderate levels (see John's post above) but having pre-outs will ensure you can run what you like adding an external amp if necessary. If you like Onkyo, I believe the 705 has pre's, but there are several other choices out there as well depending on your budget.

I would suggest going the M60 route and see if you really find anything lacking, I only noticed the difference due to a direct comparison to my M22s which prompted me to run them with the M60s I had ordered and found that sound more to my liking, thus the gtg with mojo and the review you read.

I soon learned to enjoy the M60s very much while waiting for my M80s to arrive. I suspect you would not even know you are missing anything at all with the M60s, unless very familiar with the Axiom sound and really enjoy the upfront sound. I have also since learned my M22s are more forward/open than the present M22s so the results of M22v2 and M60v2 might be less like the M80s than my attempt at the M82.

I'm an online research freak with a mantra of "buy the best... within budget". That's how I ended up on the Axiom forums. The fact that I've read that the M80s have a fuller sound than the M60s has my internal yin and yang embroiled in an M60 vs M80 battle.

So you have the M60 v1? Do you know what Axiom has changed in v2? Maybe they tweaked the mids and highs to be slightly more prominent?

But you're right... I probably wouldn't know what I'm missing (if anything) with the M60s. The problem is all I've got to go on right now are forum user opinions and reviews. I haven't heard what the M60s (or M80s) are capable of. Are there any M60/M80 users in the Toronto, Canada area that can give me an audition? I'll bring the beer...

Lots of M60/M80 owners in the Toronto area. Check here and you can also email Axiom about possible owners not on the list that are willing to audition. ususally a PM to the person is in order.

You are not too far away from Axiom, you could go up there on a long weekend road trip and listen first hand to ALL they have to offer right at the factory, just call them to set up a date.

No, I have M22v1's, the M60s I had were v2s as are my M80s. Having recently A/B'd my M22v1's to the M22v2s, my v1's were noticeably more forward/open than the v2's.

How big is your room, and how loud do you listen?

The M60's are terrific speakers. I think your room configuration is going to make more of a difference than going from the 60's to the 80's. I have the M60's and have heard the M80's at another forum member's home.

My choice between the M80 and M60 came down to my unwillingness to tempt fate with my Onkyo. I was told (by Alan, I believe), that I should be OK with the M80's as long as I didn't push them too hard. I'm pretty sure I would have been fine in my room, but I also feel that I'm not missing anything by going with the M60's. And I have piece of mind that I can crank it up without fear.

Chris I had m60's for 2 years in my 8,000 cu ft room and they are awesome. I do own the 80's now, but there is no reason to worry about the sound of the 60's, very similar to the 80's.

Chris, I agree with Jay, give Axiom a call and tell them you would like to come up to hear the M80s and 60s (and 22s for that matter). That way you'll hear them all at the same time so you can make a more informed decision. There are people who will have one or the other, but not too many who have both or all three, so you won't really be able to compare properly.

No, Chris; the people who ran a lab test on the 606(see the excellent HomeTheater Magazine lab test and review)don't "know" of this 4 ohm problem either. Note the substantial power measured into 4 ohms at the more realistic 2-channels driven standard measurement. Many owners report using similar receivers with satisfaction on speakers more difficult to drive than the M80s.

In my view it's an excess of caution to allow the choice of receiver to veto the choice of speaker. A problem shouldn't be assumed that may never develop if the equipment is used sensibly.

You crack me up John, used sensibly, who would ever use their system sensibly, are we not suppose to turn it to 11 all the time?

Does anyone have a receiver that goes up to...twww-eeelll-vvve!

John, can you please "dumb down" the HomeTheaterMag review results for me? Is "two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 115.3 watts and 1 percent distortion at 141.4 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 162.9 watts and 1 percent distortion at 222.1 watts" a good thing?

One thing I didn't take into account is mixing 4 ohm(M80) and 8 ohm(QS8, VP150) speakers together in a surround sound setup. Is that even possible with my receiver? My inner voice is telling me to lean towards M60s at this point. At the same time it's wondering why M60 owners more often than not tend to eventually upgrade to M80s...

Oh well... I think I'll take Jay's advice and plan a road trip to Axiom and let my ears decide. As soon as we get some good weather here in Toronto, that is... Maybe June???

Hi Chris,

I wouldn't wait until June to go up there, it's 4 lane highway most of the way, very easy drive. No storms expected until Tuesday so you could go tomorrow . I would suggest that you call in advance and let them know what you would like to audtion. Been there 4 times and enjoyed every visit.

One more thing, I've had M60s since '04 and have no desire at all to upgrade, I smile every time I listen to them.

Yes it is a very good thing, as it proves the receiver is capable of running a 4 ohm load with a substantial power output of 162Watts.

Yes it is possible, many people here run varying impedance speakers in their systems. You will just be getting more power to the M80s or any other speaker that is less than 8 ohms. You are then required to run these lower impedance speakers at a different/lower level to equalize the output.

The upgradeitis bug is hard to get rid of, but the number of people on the forum that have upgraded, I suspect is much less than those have bought the M60s and not upgraded, remember there is a very small percentage of Axiom owners that frequent this forum.

Don't wait make the appoitment for tomorrow and get on this

BTW, thanks for all the uber-helpful advice from everyone on these forums. I feel like I'm already part of the Axiom family.

Once just isn't enough is it? I would love to head back up and give the EP800 a listen. Would love to compare it to the EP350 to see for myself what the difference is.

By the time you figure out what that really means, it will be much too late.

By the way, I visited Axiom last March, two days after the big storm we had. It was a beautiful drive. Go now, start enjoying good sound sooner.

Chris, Jason has already answered your questions well, but to add to the using speakers with different rated impedances point, the receiver doesn't know what the impedance of the connected speakers is. If it can supply the voltage and current required at any instant in time, it does so, regardless of what impedance rating is advertised for the speaker.

What great choices to be limited to!

Chris, you could also look at the M50, which is one speaker I would really like to hear, a 6.5" driver version of the M22(different XO point, so not really the M22) with a bigger box to help the low end.

Hey Jay, you're welcome to come out to Burlington to hear my set up. I debated about M60/M80 at the start and when I was at Axiom I spoke to Ian himself and he told me that I really wouldn't be losing much going with M60. At that time, may be diferent now. He stated that the 80's can take tons of power and can go a little lower/more bass.
I always preferred the look of the 60's to the 80's so when I upgraded my set up....I only upgraded the finish and kept with the 60's.


Send me a pm through Axiom if interested.

Nice! How much did the veneer and finish cost? That's like moving from the high end speaker category to a work of art. I'm really starting to lean towards the M60s. I don't want to mess around with power output for 4 ohm front speakers in an 8 ohm surround setup and whatnot. Plus with the money I save by going with M60s I'll get a centre channel that much faster.

Cheers,
Chris.

Chris you are looking at the High Gloss cherry and every once in awhile Axiom has had a free upgrade to this custom finish, believe it or not, it is still vinyl.

Thanks, I think they look awesome and as mentioned, this is the High Gloss Cherry Vinyl found here

"Custom Matte Finishes are available at an extra charge of 12% per model. Click on the samples to see a larger version of the color."

Spend the extra dough if you like the finish and pick them up in person to save money The shipping is free (included in price) but if you call Axiom I'm sure they'll give you a rebate on pick up as some have received one in the past. I believe around 8% so really the finish only costs 4% plus half a tank of gas

As for mixing impedance between fronts, center and rear I don't think you need to worry about it.

That's some nice looking finish, Hay. I would never have guessed that was NOT real veneer, WOW! BTW what's that little morsel on the top of the speaker?

And you would say the same thing with a pair of each sitting in front of you unless you got to within a foot or so. Those vinyl finishes really are something!

Thank you, that morsel is the pot light reflection from above.

And every time I see another picture of the HG cherry I wonder if I should have spent the extra for that finish. That was one of the hardest decisions I had to make when buying my M80 setup.

A foot or so..maybe if you were a craftsman. I love wood and I just went right up to them and they look real enough to me from right up close. Anyone that comes over automatically goes up to touch them as they think it's real wood.

Just do what I did enjoy the boston cherry for a couple years and when the free promo comes and goes twice, jump on it on the third chance

Do I have to wait for the third, or can I jump on the second?

I have to laugh when I see postings about how vinyl is poor quality (any vinyl these days). Some people have no clue.

Those HG cherry really are stunning.

The waiting makes you appreciate them more.

We just need Mark to take some high quality pics as my camera and lightening is poor. Perhaps tomorrow I will try as I did finally finish the center stand. Of course now I just need to decide on how to finish it.

Mabe you could get Axiom to cover it with HG cherry vinyl.

Oh, I'd totally make a gimp suit out of HG vinyl.

Maybe I should downgrade to M60's in HG Cherry??????????

Fred, I thought about that but I think it would be a little much. My brother has friends who work in body/paint shops and he said he could custom paint/finish it but I need to figure out what I want. Currently I have a RPTV with a black grill cloth base, so painting it black would be good. But, when I switch to a new flat panel wall mounted the black would look fine but would stick out more...

Bob, I would never consider moving to the M60 as a downgrade, just a different option. Yes you may loose some detail and slightly better performance at low volume but if you never compared back and forth you would never know. If you're like me and like to have your speakers stand out and be a room accent then the HG finish is an excellent choice.

Bob, thats a valid option. It all depends on how important looks are to you. In the end, I decided to stick with maximum sound quality and the extra savings from the outlet store. I did put all my options in a spreadsheet and stare at the numbers for several days though!

When your M80s come and you get a chance to see and hear them in your room, your will know what to do.

I did the right thing for me and have no regrets, even if I struggled with some of the decisions for a while. If I wasn't saving for a house though, I would have gone for the HG cherry in a heartbeat.

I'm lucky, sort of, my wife doesn't like the look of the HG, wouldn't match anything in our decor, so it is not an option for me. But I certainly love it.

My current decor is post modern Troglodite, so anything goes in my theater. :rollyeyes:

Is that anything like early Neanderthal, Fred?

Yes, but not quite that highbrow.

LOL! Thanks, Fred. Whew!